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Primary weapons for all tier 3 ships
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Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#21 - 2011-12-14 20:56:38 UTC
CCP: "keeping in line with caldari tier progression..."

Bantam -> kessie -> merlin
osprey -> caracal -> moa
scorpion -> raven -> rokh
ferox -> drake -> Naga



What a bunch of whiny little saps. Get over it, a missile naga would SUCK. Fly one and you'll understand.
tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
#22 - 2011-12-14 21:01:11 UTC
heh, all three third-tier ships (before Naga) are gunboats :D

Though yea, a missile naga would be frowned upon in the same way that the pheonix is frowned upon in the dreadnaught community.

Where the science gets done
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-12-14 21:33:59 UTC
Everyone, including the OP is missing the main problem here.

Tier 3 bc's are primarily pvp ships. The Naga was obviously made a turret boat because of the short comings of missiles in pvp.

The only time missiles are effective in pvp is when the entire fleet are missile boats and the fleet must be well balanced for tank. Very rarely is gank an option for missile fleets.

My point is that the Naga wasn't made a turret boat because Caldari needed another turret option, or that CCP wants Caldari pilots to cross train in turrets.

It's because Missiles are inneffective in pvp except in the case of a pure missile fleet or in the case of stealth bombers, but even they are only effective because of the bombs themselves and once the bomb is gone the stealth bomber has worn out its effectiveness.

Personally i feel as if CCP has made the Naga a turret boat because of their innattentiveness towards missiles needing to be rebalanced. Instead of looking at the Naga and saying "missiles really need to be rebalanced to be more effective in pvp", they looked at the Naga and said "Missiles are kinda inneffective in pvp, so lets just put hybrids on it."

The case is simple. Balance missiles, and balancing missiles is simple.

1) Greatly Increase Velocity
2) Greatly reduce flight time
3) Balance Acceleration time so that missiles still have the same range they do now.

In doing this several possitive outcomes will happen with no negative outcome.

1) Missiles will initiate dps much quicker, thus allowing missile boats to be more effective in pvp.
2) Missile volleys will no longer be waisted because they will hit a target at max flight range before the end of the cycle
3) Missiles can become a pure Caldari weapon, leaving Gallente with Hybrids.

Now some people may argue that this will make missile boats more Powerful.
No it won't.

I'll even set an example for you. Lets say you have the current missile variables. You have a target at 0km and a target at 60km, have a cycle time of 10 seconds, velocity of 5km/s, and a flight time of 12 seconds (not putting in accel time in this example and factoring this on stationary targets) Now, you fire a volley on the target 0km away and instantly hit it initiating dps and doing the same damage every 10 seconds. Now, you start volleys on the target 60km away. 10 seconds after you fire the first volley another volley fires. 2 seconds later the first volley hits the target initiating dps and now every 10 seconds a volley will hit the target giving missiles the exact same dps against the exact same target reguardless of range.

Now, if you were to make my changes and now you had a missile velocity of 30km/s and a flight time of 2 seconds with a 10 second cycle time, you will still instantly hit the target 0km away for the exact same dps, but you'll be engaging the target 60km away in 2 seconds instead of 12, but still be doing the exact same dps as any other situation.
This is all the same because the speed of the missile does not determine the dps done to the target. If the explosion velocity, and explosion radius remain the same then your dps will be the exact same, it will just take less time to initiate that dps.

The main problem with missiles is waisted volleys and ships being able to run out of range before the missile reaches them. This is what make missiles inneffective in pvp. However, if you take my suggested changes missiles will be much more effective but still have the same dps, and ships that can go a few km per second will still be able to outrun the explosion velocity in order to negate any dps. So again, missiles simply become more effective in the time in takes to engage targets at long range and with less waisted volleys, but still be the same general concept as far as dps and weaknesses.

The only other aspect of Eve that would need to be changed to react to this is defender missiles. They will need to be much much faster and engage the missiles on point instead of chasing missiles like they do now. A simple way to cure this would be simply to remove defendors as a missile platform and instead make them a turret. However, I don't think they should rely on any other skills in order to be effective, such as tracking or what not. This is so that both turret and missile boat pilots can train and use them without having to cross train several other support skills as well. This would mean that instead of defendors having an engagement time on target and having to chase their target, they will be turrets and be able to engage and destroy instantly, or perhaps they can just make them flares or something.

My overall point here is that the problem isn't that the Naga should be a missile boat, it isn't that the Naga should be a turret boat, it's simply that their wouldn't be any wonders or questions to whether Caldari was missile or turret and there wouldnt' be a question to why the Naga didn't have missiles if CCP would just quit sitting on their hands and balance missiles to be more effective in pvp. It's a simple fix. Just do it already.
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#24 - 2011-12-14 21:53:31 UTC
To the previous poster: with the faster missile change you're basically making it a turretboat.

I like the naga because finally it gives the Caldari a hybrid using ship that's good in its' intended role. I as caldari pilot with max missile skills am finally training hybrids because there's now a caldari hybrid using ship that doesn't suck.

The reason that most caldari pilots can't shoot hybrids is because the rokh is better with mining lasers, they had to add an extra turret to the ferox and it still sucked, a tech 3 with a totally useless subsystem. No, previously there weren't any caldari hybrid using ships that any pilot in their right mind would use.

Now there is.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2011-12-14 21:58:19 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

Frigs
Bantam -- 2 Turret (Mining bonuses)
Condor -- 2 launcher / 1 Turret (missile bonuses)
Griffin -- 2 Launcher / 1 Turret (EWAR bonuses)
Heron -- 2 Launcher / 1 Turret (Missile Kinetic Dmg and Scanning bonuses)
Kestrel -- 4 Launcher (Missile Bonuses)
Merlin -- 2 Launcher / 2 Turret (Hybrid Bonuses)


Cruisers
Blackbird -- 3 Launcher / 3 Turret (EWAR bonuses)
Caracal -- 5 Launcher / 2 Turret (Missile Bonuses)
Moa -- 5 Turret (Hybrid Bonuses)
Osprey -- 2 Launcher / 3 Turret (Mining Bonuses)

Battlecruisers
Drake -- 7 Launcher (Missile Bonus)
Ferox -- 5 Launcher / 6 Turret (Hybrid Bonus)
Naga -- 8 Turret (Hybrid Bonus)

Battleships
Raven -- 6 Launcher / 4 Turret (Missile Bonus)
Rokh -- 4 Launcher / 8 Turret (Hybrid Bonus)
Scorpion -- 4 Launcher / 4 Turret (EWAR Bonus)

Of 16 T1 ships
6 of them have some kind of missile bonuses
5 of them have hybrid bonuses
5 of them have EWAR/Mining (and no Missile/Hybrid bonuses)

So, ignoring the 5 that have neither bonus, it was a 60/40 split ... and now it's approx 45/55.


This is good, but you can't base them being a missile or turret boat off their bonuses, but instead, base them off what they can fit so that you can determine the true balance of missiles to turrets. So...

Frigates (t for turret m for missile)
Bantam - 2t
Condor - 2m 1t
Griffin - 2m 1t
Heron - 2m 1t
Kestel - 4m
Merlin - 2m 2t

Cruisers
Blackbird - 3m 3t
Caracal - 5m 2t
Moa - 2m 5t
Osprey - 2m 3t

Battlecruisers
Drake - 7m
Ferox - 5m 6t
Naga - 8t

Battleships
Raven - 6m 4t
Rokh - 4m 8t
Scorpion - 4m 4t

Now, if you look at it this way, then you have 8 that are primarily missile boats, 5 that are primarily turret boats, and 3 that can go either way.
However, when you look at those 3 ships, they're ewar ships, so they're able to pick either turrets or missiles to fit into either fleet type.
One thing you also have to look at is the boats that are either limited to specifically missiles, or predominetely missiles are also quite inneffective in pvp, such as the caracal, drake, and raven.

Basically what I'm saying is it may be possible that the only reason there are turret boats in the caldari line up may simply be on part with what I said about missiles being inneffective in pvp.
Ishtar Starfire
DarkWIng Industrial Mechanics inc.
#26 - 2011-12-14 21:59:24 UTC
@sjugar i agree with you on that note but look at it this way. you must now spend 60 plus days at base hybrid skills to be able to use the guns. then you must learn the skills to hav better tracking and target prediction. so in total your looking at almost 3 months of training all the while the other races are dominating the field. and to you others that say missles are inefective in combat that turrets are better. both the hybrid and torps have about the same range. and both setups would be considered glass cannons. at close range those missles are going to hit you regardless and within very short time
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-12-14 22:06:54 UTC
Sjugar wrote:
To the previous poster: with the faster missile change you're basically making it a turretboat.

I like the naga because finally it gives the Caldari a hybrid using ship that's good in its' intended role. I as caldari pilot with max missile skills am finally training hybrids because there's now a caldari hybrid using ship that doesn't suck.

The reason that most caldari pilots can't shoot hybrids is because the rokh is better with mining lasers, they had to add an extra turret to the ferox and it still sucked, a tech 3 with a totally useless subsystem. No, previously there weren't any caldari hybrid using ships that any pilot in their right mind would use.

Now there is.


Well of course the would be more like turrets... Do you think you could balance missiles more for pvp by making them more like bombs??

Now, you may like the Naga as is because it is good at it's intended role, but if missiles were balanced the way I suggest, then with missiles it would still be good at it's intended role. Hell, it might even be better because it wouldn't have the limits you get from optimal range and tracking.

Now, as far as your comment to Caldari using hybrids early on. Personally, I feel that it would be better to remove hybrids from the Caldari and make them pure missile boat pilots and balance missiles the way I'm suggesting. this would mean that Caldari can be effective against the other races without having to mimic what the other races do in order to be able to compete.

Caldari are the only race that is unable to compete in pvp with their intended primary weapon, so instead of CCP balancing Caldari weapons, they mimic'd the Gallente to allow Caldari to be effective, but to change it up, they made the Caldari a blaster bs instead of a rail bs, and made a rail bc instead of a blaster bc. Oh, caldari are real original now.

Simply by balancing missiles Caldari can become their own race with their own benefits and flaws, but still be capable of everything the other races can't do but be able to do it without being cut and paste versions of another ship, but with a different skin.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-12-14 22:24:13 UTC
Ishtar Starfire wrote:
and to you others that say missles are inefective in combat that turrets are better. both the hybrid and torps have about the same range. and both setups would be considered glass cannons. at close range those missles are going to hit you regardless and within very short time


This is true, however, the turret will hit it's target instantly doing damage, the missile on the other hand will have to travel quite a distance before it hits the target. In doing so, you face 2 issues. 1) The target is moving and manages to move just out of the flight range of the missile before it can make it there. 2) If you have a volley flying at the target and another volley behind it, then the first volley hits and destroys the target, now you have a waisted volley in the air that is going to hit nothing, cost isk, but also waist a cycle so that you have more time until you're able to engage the next target.

Now, your comment to missiles hitting at short range and in a short period of time. You're basically saying that missiles are purfectly fine at close range. This is true, but should not be the case. Missiles are designed to be able to do the same dps at their max range as they are at 0km. However, in pvp they become inneffective the firther away the target gets.

Say 1 on 1 a golem takes on a snip fitted Kronos and they both have a range of 150km.(just an example don't hound me cause I'm incorrect on what they can do). Now, we'll say they're both fitted to have that same dps. We'll also say just for the sake of saying that they both have the same cycle time and the same dps per volley. This is just to balance everything out a bit. Now, we'll say that the golem missiles go 5km/s. Now, that golem and that Kronos both begin to fire at the same time. The Kronos is going to instantly initiate dps on the golem and going to hit it every 10 seconds. However, the golem is going to hit the Kronos in 30 seconds, and once that 30 seconds reaches, the golem will begin to do the same dps every 10 seconds. Now, that may not seem too bad, but when you factor that the Kronos can Hit the golem for the same dps 3 times before the golem even hit it once, this is going to make a huge difference in the battle. This means the Kronos will always be 3 shots ahead of the golem, giving it a quite unfair advantage, and assuming they're both capable of the same tank, then the golem will go down and the Kronos will be able to warp out while the golem pilot still has 2 or 3 volley in the air that would have been enough to destroy the Kronos had the dps been initiated much sooner, but allas, it wasn't so the kronos was able to destroy the golem and warp out before the last of the damage could reach it.

So yeah, I'd have to say that the greater the range gets, the worse off it is for missiles. However, turrets may be weaker at close range than missiles, but they also have the option to fit close range turrets that are even more devistating than close range missiles.
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-12-14 22:30:16 UTC
The drake is not ineffective at pvp, missiles are not ineffective at pvp.
Mr Painless
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2011-12-14 22:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Painless
@Ishtar Starfire:

To recapitulate, you are making 3 points why Naga should be missile, and not turret ship.

1. You didn't bother to train gunnery. In 5 years you play EVE. That's your fail, not CCP's.

2. Missiles (and therefore Caldari) are nerfed ad infinum over the years, and suck for PvP. So why then do you want them on Naga? At least hybrids got buffed this time.

3. You claim that tier 3 BC are designed to use their race's primary weapon. AFAIK CCP never released any information which supports this, therefore your claim is completely arbitrary. I could just as arbitrarily claim that tier 3 BCs are designed to be gunboats, so hybrid Naga makes perfect sense.

BTW, this is my main, and it's Caldari.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2011-12-14 22:39:31 UTC
Sjugar wrote:
The drake is not ineffective at pvp, missiles are not ineffective at pvp.


The drake is not inneffective in pvp but only when in 1v1 or when in a drake/missile fleet.

Again though, drakes and missile fleets are only effective in pvp if they're fitted for tanking.

Get a drake that focuses on dps and it's screwed, put a fleet of missile boats against an equal fleet of turrets boat, each without tank capability, and the turrets will win every time simply because of the speed in which they can engage.

They can alpha down the missile boats with the highest dps before they're able to even hit a target.
tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
#32 - 2011-12-14 22:56:25 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sjugar wrote:
The drake is not ineffective at pvp, missiles are not ineffective at pvp.


The drake is not inneffective in pvp but only when in 1v1 or when in a drake/missile fleet.

Again though, drakes and missile fleets are only effective in pvp if they're fitted for tanking.

Get a drake that focuses on dps and it's screwed, put a fleet of missile boats against an equal fleet of turrets boat, each without tank capability, and the turrets will win every time simply because of the speed in which they can engage.

They can alpha down the missile boats with the highest dps before they're able to even hit a target.


missiles really shine in pvp when you have a large ship (like a drake) that's trying to engage a smaller vessel (like a slicer). Turrets, even with amazing tracking, will have issues with hitting targets smaller than what they are intended for.

missiles, not so much.

you could call the slicer daft for attacking a drake, even with a cynnabal helping its case, but if you fit a missile velocity rig and a target painter on that drake you WILL four-shot that slicer, even if it runs out of your locking range.

oh, and that's another thing that missiles can do that turrets can't. They can hit things that run out of your locking range :D

Where the science gets done
CobaltSixty
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#33 - 2011-12-14 23:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: CobaltSixty
Joe Risalo wrote:
[quote=Sjugar]Get a drake that focuses on dps and it's screwed, put a fleet of missile boats against an equal fleet of turrets boat, each without tank capability, and the turrets will win every time simply because of the speed in which they can engage.

They can alpha down the missile boats with the highest dps before they're able to even hit a target.

Is it starting to make sense why the Naga was chosen to be a turret boat like all the rest? Missile ships need the ability to tank in order to survive long enough to deal some damage to their targets. Tier-3 battlecruisers, by their stated definition, are poor tankers. The only exception to this rule is Stealth Bombers and the reason for that exception is fairly obvious.

Another point that has been ignored thus far is that missiles would look ugly/stupid coming out of a Naga, given that it has always had rough-ins on the model to place turrets. That may change with animated launcher hardpoints but currently, the design aesthetic of the Naga is similar to the Rokh i.e. wall of turrets. The art department is the biggest bottleneck to new ships in EVE - let's work with what we got, mmkay?
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#34 - 2011-12-14 23:15:42 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sjugar wrote:
The drake is not ineffective at pvp, missiles are not ineffective at pvp.


The drake is not inneffective in pvp but only when in 1v1 or when in a drake/missile fleet.

Again though, drakes and missile fleets are only effective in pvp if they're fitted for tanking.

Get a drake that focuses on dps and it's screwed, put a fleet of missile boats against an equal fleet of turrets boat, each without tank capability, and the turrets will win every time simply because of the speed in which they can engage.

They can alpha down the missile boats with the highest dps before they're able to even hit a target.


Quoted this too say you have no idea what you are talking about.

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2011-12-14 23:52:07 UTC
Korg Tronix wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sjugar wrote:
The drake is not ineffective at pvp, missiles are not ineffective at pvp.


The drake is not inneffective in pvp but only when in 1v1 or when in a drake/missile fleet.

Again though, drakes and missile fleets are only effective in pvp if they're fitted for tanking.

Get a drake that focuses on dps and it's screwed, put a fleet of missile boats against an equal fleet of turrets boat, each without tank capability, and the turrets will win every time simply because of the speed in which they can engage.

They can alpha down the missile boats with the highest dps before they're able to even hit a target.


Quoted this too say you have no idea what you are talking about.



Try taking on a turret boat 1v1 without having a good tank on the drake and see how you do. The only reason it survives pvp is because of it's tank. the only reason a missile gang can survive in pvp is by having a solid fleet tank build. If you dont' have a solid tank with missile fleets, you're boned. however, a turret fleet can fit more gank then gank and just come in and alpha down whatever will sit them best. Missiles can't do that because their tank will get waxed. They have to come in, establish the tank, then engage the enemy. Where as turrets can come in, take out some logistics through alpha, and then form their tank.
This isn't in all cases, it's only in a missile vs turrets matchup.
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#36 - 2011-12-15 00:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanthra
walls of text......rehash of weeks before release thread whines 0/10.


rokh has been the pvp bs of caldari for years. Naga is a pvp bc using the bs pvp guns so it got....hybrids. About sums it up

Didn't train for it....well burn a remap, take the remap present to get it back next week and get to that gun train. Worth it at the end imo.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#37 - 2011-12-15 01:39:50 UTC
I have perfect missile skills. I tried out the torpedo naga when it was on SISSI. It sucked.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2011-12-15 05:06:07 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I have perfect missile skills. I tried out the torpedo naga when it was on SISSI. It sucked.


Again though, that's not cause the Naga sucks with missiles, it's cause missiles suck at pvp.
Icarus Helia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-12-15 05:49:55 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I have perfect missile skills. I tried out the torpedo naga when it was on SISSI. It sucked.


Again though, that's not cause the Naga sucks with missiles, it's cause missiles suck at pvp.


the only good missiles are heavy missiles, and that's only because they hit everything for mediocre damage with some level of certainty.

light missiles, rockets, HAMs, torps and cruise are horribad at hitting anything that isn't sitting still, and painted to carrier sizes, or just have terrible range and damage to begin with.

capital missiles...hitting capitals? LOL! meanwhile moros and rev can fire 2-3 volleys and be done with most battleships at range,and if theyre webbed and painted even up close.

real issue is definitely with missiles - not the naga sucking with them. so yes I am glad they buffed the naga by giving it real bonuses instead of EFT warrior bonuses.

Why you no care?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2011-12-15 06:03:44 UTC
Icarus Helia wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I have perfect missile skills. I tried out the torpedo naga when it was on SISSI. It sucked.


Again though, that's not cause the Naga sucks with missiles, it's cause missiles suck at pvp.


the only good missiles are heavy missiles, and that's only because they hit everything for mediocre damage with some level of certainty.

light missiles, rockets, HAMs, torps and cruise are horribad at hitting anything that isn't sitting still, and painted to carrier sizes, or just have terrible range and damage to begin with.

capital missiles...hitting capitals? LOL! meanwhile moros and rev can fire 2-3 volleys and be done with most battleships at range,and if theyre webbed and painted even up close.

real issue is definitely with missiles - not the naga sucking with them. so yes I am glad they buffed the naga by giving it real bonuses instead of EFT warrior bonuses.



Yeah, but I still much prefer that CCP work on balancing missiles, instead of turning Caldari into another hybrid race so that they can compete in pvp.

I love missiles, but i'm pretty much not gonna use anything but a drake because of it's tank and a bomber because of bombs and cloaks for pvp. I don't want to train for turrets to pvp because I have other things I would like to train for without waisting my time.

So again I say buff missile velocity a lot, reduce flight time a lot, balance accel time so they still have the same range.
Then maybe buff target painters a little so it doesn't take 3 Phased weapon Navigation array generation extrons in order to do effective dps. 2 makes sense, but requiring 3 is pretty rediculous.