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Why I don't go to lowsec.

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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#81 - 2014-11-10 00:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Inflation isn't about how much isk is in circulation


You heard it here folks. Inflation has nothing to do with currency devaluation.


Currency devaluation???? Relative to what? That requires foreign currencies...eve has none.....I mean come on. If stuff is deflating (or deflating relative to Plex) that means that the rate of material growth exceeds the rate of isk growth. Your enemy should be mining, not incursions (and if isk growth really was your target, you should go after bounties).

Edit - maybe you mean currency depreciation? But that also requires foreign currencies....and this would not explain inflation/deflation in a self contained economy relative to goods.Shocked
Kaely Tanniss
The Conference Council
The Conference
#82 - 2014-11-10 04:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaely Tanniss
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Inflation isn't about how much isk is in circulation


You heard it here folks. Inflation has nothing to do with currency devaluation.


Currency devaluation???? Relative to what? That requires foreign currencies...eve has none.....I mean come on. If stuff is deflating (or deflating relative to Plex) that means that the rate of material growth exceeds the rate of isk growth. Your enemy should be mining, not incursions (and if isk growth really was your target, you should go after bounties).

Edit - maybe you mean currency depreciation? But that also requires foreign currencies....and this would not explain inflation/deflation in a self contained economy relative to goods.Shocked


Wait...what? So now you're an economic expert too Veers? You ARE one of the incursion runners...so of course you'd defend those actions. I have nothing against lucrative aspects of Eve..I do however have issues with the ability to do so without any risk. I know all too well how incursion fleets work..there is little risk unless you take someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Like Kaarous said, it is being used as an isk press and it is hurting the market..which honestly, I don't care about..but others do. The solution would be to make incursions occur only in low or null sec...then the risk would be equal to the rewards imo...you wouldn't dare fly that shiny nightmare into a lowsec/nullsec pocket..now that's risk vs reward..

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#83 - 2014-11-10 04:16:06 UTC
Kaely Tanniss wrote:


Wait...what? So now you're an economic expert too Veers? You ARE one of the incursion runners...so of course you'd defend those actions. I have nothing against lucrative aspects of Eve..I do however have issues with the ability to do so without any risk. I know all too well how incursion fleets work..there is little risk unless you take someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Like Kaarous said, it is being used as an isk press and it is hurting the market..which honestly, I don't care about..but others do. The solution would be to make incursions occur only in low or null sec...then the risk would be equal to the rewards imo...you wouldn't dare fly that shiny nightmare into a lowsec/nullsec pocket..now that's risk vs reward..


Huh? Another deeply confused comment. And yes, I am an economic expert. Thanks for completely failing to refute the actual argument. Roll

As to the rest....Incursions are far, far risker than L4s, than AFK carrier ratting in Deklein, than AFK mining in sov null, than escalations in well controlled wormhole space, etc... Basically, the player powerblocs have made their space vastly safer than empire can ever be.

The market is not "hurting" as prices are dropping, not rising. I'm not sure how you determine "hurt," but I would suggest doing at least a bit of market research before spouting absurdities. I mean, prices are falling, but incursions (far less isk generated than bounties) are somehow "hurting" the market. ShockedWhat?Roll

There are incursions in low sec. Guess what happens....2 groups monopolize them and have a non-agression pact. This is good for the game how exactly? But your brilliant solution is to move even more content out of highsec and into player controlled space, where no one but members of the big power blocs can participate. And you wonder why CCP is worried about people in highsec getting bored and quitting the game. ShockedWhat?

I mean if you care about risk/reward you should be advocating turning Deklein into a desolate wasteland where only L1s are available, and mining is impossible. But gee, somehow I don't see you doing that. It wouldn't really fit in with your nerf highsec agenda or crazy economic arguments. UghPirate
Serene Repose
#84 - 2014-11-10 04:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
You haven't figured this out yet? People who try to goad you into low sec are waiting there with their buddies
to GANK YOU.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people will let their EGOS be their GUIDES. Are you NUTS? Speaking of nuts...that other thing...yes, your other head..."I'm a BIGGER man!" That has gotten more people into an early grave than cigarettes.

Low sec as an obligation to prove....One day you guys will learn. But, I ain't holdin' my breath.
Neither are my sisters of the world.

Get to enjoy Mary Fivefingers. She's your buddy for life.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2014-11-10 06:22:51 UTC
The real reason not to go to lowsec has very little to do with the danger. The danger's just a tangiental factor.

The real reason not to go to lowsec is that for a significant hike in danger you don't get very much that you can't get in hisec, whereas for a not-so-significant hike in danger over lowsec you could go to nullsec and get way better stuff.

In essence the real reason not to go to low-sec is it's the least interesting place in the game.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Nami Kumamato
Perkone
Caldari State
#86 - 2014-11-10 08:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nami Kumamato
Hal Morsh wrote:
People constantly go after me for suggesting the boogyman is around every corner in lowsec, anyone, everyone + their alts and PL dreads are all after you specifically you and only you just because you are in lowsec.

So I hadn't entered lowsec in months but the *content* decided to send me there, and while most supposed "carebears" would not do it I decided I would, since there might be an A-type in it at the end. Lets face it though, everyone is considered a carebear of some sort by everyone else.


So I get my destroyer, the first jump is clear, second jump is a full overview gatecamp, and the game decided that this was the jump to not select the next stargate but the previous stargate, so I lost my pod too. Wouldn't have mattered, I tried again with a tristan, all lows and rigs with low friction nozzle joints and nanofiber hull, lost that but jumped through.

I docked at a station, but what do you know? Only t2 modules for sale in the land of bittervets who love camping. So I fit a tristan and undock *instadied*, figures...

So I fit another one? The guy looted my wreck and left, thankfully the site was only a few frigates, but nothing dropped except a meta autocannon, i'm surprised at this point I wasn't probed down before even seeing the probed on d-scan, like what happened to my astero with that ancillary shield interceptor whom I obviously wasn't going to be able to kill because *one module to rule them all* ancillaries being as OP as they are.


So at least I left lowsec alive, the whole gatecamp jumped through with me, but only locked me and didn't scram. Maybe they figured it wasn't worth the kill this time, and I can't even get anything off the killrights, because 2 out of the 3 have a billion + in bounty and are all minus security status, even if they entered highsec who would need the killright to shoot?


Lowsec is "murphies law online". Might be a reason right there why so few use the "lowsec content". Won't be making that mistake again. Where's the reward for my risk? People suggest better ships, but why throw more isk into the grinder? That obviously doesn't make sense.

Edit: fixed some of the mangled words.


I don't know much about this game, but I've been exploring in Low and Null for some time, and honestly, if you're smart usually you get away with whatever you're trying to do.
All I can say is that if you're strolling around without cloak - you will die! If you don't make Dotlan maps your friend - you will die! If you jump to 0 - you will die! If you dont manual pilot - you will die!
That or fly an Inty.
If you're one lonely Destroyer frolicking in the meadows of "lol-sec" TM looking for content - chances are that the Big Bad Wolf is right around the corner.

Fornicate The Constabulary !
BrundleMeth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2014-11-10 11:34:13 UTC
This is really an AFK cloaking thread isn't it?
Darth Schweinebacke
Wings of Fury.
#88 - 2014-11-10 11:57:54 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


As to the rest....Incursions are far, far risker than L4s, than AFK carrier ratting in Deklein, than AFK mining in sov null, than escalations in well controlled wormhole space, etc... Basically, the player powerblocs have made their space vastly safer than empire can ever be.



The only risk in incursions is letting logi pilots into your fleet who do not know wtf they are doing which can easily be mitigated by using them as extra logi pilot on grid while you keep your trusted logis on field

(Veers: but that is bad for the ISK / hour)

Who cares?

Risk in eve can not be measured on the possibility of someone in your fleet being stupid but rather the possibilty of other players interfering with your business and the risk of that happening in 0.0 or LS is by far larger than it is in high sec.

If 0.0 is made safer than high sec this is only achieved by actually investing time into doing so, while in high sec you get the biggest chunk of your safety handed to you by ccp. And in 0.0 even with intel channels and everything the risk still remains and you need to constanlty pay attention to local and intel channels, while in high sec in most cases you only have to worry if you make yourself a target.

Also not everyone who would want to make ISK in 0.0 is in an alliance and has access to intel channels, should those people not be rewarded for taking a much larger risk than people in high sec?

btw. you sound a lot like IZ (if not even exactly like that)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2014-11-10 12:58:35 UTC
Darth Schweinebacke wrote:
while in high sec in most cases you only have to worry if you make yourself a target.


Couple of things:

That bar is a LOW lower than it once was. A couple of faction damage mods will do it.

Secondly - the population in high sec actually works against you. You can't always tell the threats. For example I saw about 15 catalysts undock from a mission hub the other month. All <31 days old characters, all in NPCs corps their whole life. Off they go on a killing rampage. Point I'm getting at was that local wont help you, Dscan is of greatly reduced use due to the clutter on it too. Whereas when I'm in low/null if it's not blue.....well....and I get the luxury of calling in the cav to pre-emptively pop threats should I so desire - or POSing up in a bubble of GTFO Smile

There is a lot to this, many variables are in play around the term "safety" but high sec is not as "safe" as people like to claim (this is no complaint from me), a LOT of people die in high sec.

If you forced me to categorise it I'd say you're at less risk of a ship loss in low/null when not actively seeking PvP, but at a higher risk of inconvenience to your activities compared to high.

But that is just my personal experience and how I approach each area of space. My PvE ships have come closer to death in high sec than they ever have in null/low due to ease of threat identification.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#90 - 2014-11-10 13:13:38 UTC
The problem with lowsec is that pretty much everyone there has 100+ mil SP and think their gangsters.

Not today spaghetti.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#91 - 2014-11-10 13:23:41 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Darth Schweinebacke wrote:
while in high sec in most cases you only have to worry if you make yourself a target.


Couple of things:

That bar is a LOW lower than it once was. A couple of faction damage mods will do it.

Secondly - the population in high sec actually works against you. You can't always tell the threats. For example I saw about 15 catalysts undock from a mission hub the other month. All <31 days old characters, all in NPCs corps their whole life. Off they go on a killing rampage. Point I'm getting at was that local wont help you, Dscan is of greatly reduced use due to the clutter on it too. Whereas when I'm in low/null if it's not blue.....well....and I get the luxury of calling in the cav to pre-emptively pop threats should I so desire - or POSing up in a bubble of GTFO Smile

There is a lot to this, many variables are in play around the term "safety" but high sec is not as "safe" as people like to claim (this is no complaint from me), a LOT of people die in high sec.

If you forced me to categorise it I'd say you're at less risk of a ship loss in low/null when not actively seeking PvP, but at a higher risk of inconvenience to your activities compared to high.

But that is just my personal experience and how I approach each area of space. My PvE ships have come closer to death in high sec than they ever have in null/low due to ease of threat identification.


That's the same as saying the Ghetto is safer than the rich neighborhood because at least in the ghetto you see the gang bangers coming where are in the rich neighborhood any dude named Chad of chick named Buffy could up and gank you at any moment.

D-scan does protect you in high sec, I use it all the time in Lanngisi, Osmon and Apanake (whichever one i'm in at the time). Set to 250k kilometers, see tornado, Catalyst or similar ship on scan, that means warp NOW.

On top of that, ALL you need to do is make sure you have enough EHP to withstand a standard gank and have something (ecm drones, neut, something) that can break 1 or 2 of the gankers and you live while they die. Hell, just use a microjump drive, stay away from the mission's warp in and MJD away if you see (or feel) the heat coming around the corner.

It's so ridiculously easy to survive in space where magical space cops appear out of no where to save you (if you have enough EHP to survive long enough) it's downright silly. No so anywhere else in EVE, that's why the last time CCP gave us any numbers, high sec had the smallest portion of pvp deaths while having the largest character population (that means that it's so safe it's crazy).

The idea that high sec isn't the safest space in the game is worse than a misconception or mis-perception, it's an outright lie.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#92 - 2014-11-10 13:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
The real reason not to go to lowsec has very little to do with the danger. The danger's just a tangiental factor.

The real reason not to go to lowsec is that for a significant hike in danger you don't get very much that you can't get in hisec, whereas for a not-so-significant hike in danger over lowsec you could go to nullsec and get way better stuff.

In essence the real reason not to go to low-sec is it's the least interesting place in the game.


And this is also not true. Low sec is the second most lucrative part of space (after high end wormholes, however wormholes require high end organization to pull isk out of, in low sec every thing can be done purely solo).

Low sec is the only space in the game where a paper thin Attack Battlecruiser can earn you 300 mil isk per hour after converting LP. And all while watching asian chicks shake what little their mommas gave them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBGbeRncBDw . That same ABC might net you 60 mil isk per hour in null) .

Low sec is the ONLY place (with the exception of stage 3 of a Fleet Staging point escalation in sov null or a CONCORD blockade mission in npc null) where you can use capital ships to make isk. Carrier blitzing makes me 500 mil an hour on a bad day (more than a bil an hour under favorable LP store market conditions). That SAME carrier MIGHT make you 150-200 mil in null sec if you have access to an upgraded sov null system.

FW low sec is the only place in the game where a Stealth Bomber, Caracal or Drake will earn you more than 80 million isk per hour.

Low sec is the only place to reliably get the complexes that drop mid level deadpsace invuls and such etc etc etc.

Given that all this can be done completely solo (which is how i usually do it unless doing lvl 5 missions with a corp mate in order to 'rubber band' standings so agent standings never get too low), Low sec is the most lucrative place in EVE right now, by a serious long shot. Even CCPs recent tuning up (and turning up) of escalation chances from null anomalies can't put a dent in the insane isk you can drag out of low sec after watching like 2 videos and reading an EVE uni forum post lol.
Darth Schweinebacke
Wings of Fury.
#93 - 2014-11-10 13:42:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Schweinebacke
afkalt wrote:
Whereas when I'm in low/null if it's not blue.....well....and I get the luxury of calling in the cav to pre-emptively pop threats should I so desire - or POSing up in a bubble of GTFO [:)


Nobody stops you from setting up anti-gank intel channels in high sec as well. Nobody stops you from getting organised and killing suicide gankers when they jump into your system, undock from a station, warp to you.

You have the same tools available as ppl in 0.0 + the extra layer of protection that high sec offers -> less dangerous/risky.

afkalt wrote:


There is a lot to this, many variables are in play around the term "safety" but high sec is not as "safe" as people like to claim (this is no complaint from me), a LOT of people die in high sec.



I will never claim high sec is safe, but I claim that it is a lot safer than low and 0.0.

afkalt wrote:


If you forced me to categorise it I'd say you're at less risk of a ship loss in low/null when not actively seeking PvP, but at a higher risk of inconvenience to your activities compared to high.



No, totally not true. By the default game mechanics the risk to lose a ship no matter if it is PvP fitted or PvE fitted is higher. If people invest time and effort to mitigate the risk in 0.0 they earned the extra safety unlike high sec where you get extra safety by default.

The difference is, ppl in 0.0 are willing to use the tools available to them to reduce the risk, while a large part of the high sec population only wants to grind ISK in complete security and can not be bothered to use the very same tools.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#94 - 2014-11-10 13:49:58 UTC
Darth Schweinebacke wrote:


The difference is, ppl in 0.0 are willing to use the tools available to them to reduce the risk, while a large part of the high sec population only wants to grind ISK in complete security and can not be bothered in using the very same tools.


Don't even get me started lol (too late). I once posted a mach fit in a thread in the missions and complexes forum and one dude ridiculed me for having a heavy neut on it. I explained that the heavy neut helps kill NPC battleships by lowering their chance to rep, and it's also in case someone tries to gank me, i can neut out the guy pointing me or if they use ships with guns that use cap and can take one of the ganking ships out of the equation, giving me a better chance of surviving till CONCORD arrives. i also explained that i don't fly a ship with less than 130k ehp in an 0.5 system and that every ship I use that has a drone bay as 5 ecm drones just in case.

The idea of protecting one's own self in the manner that I do is like blasphemy to many in the high sec pve crowd. "But i'm in high sec, the game should protect me" is what they think. This is why I like gankers (treasonous as that statement may be from someone who shoots red crosses for fun), they exploit and PUNISH that kind of stupid, entitled, 1st world thinking.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2014-11-10 14:25:46 UTC
You misunderstood my point - I was simply saying that the danger is much easier to see in low/null and I have never and probably will never lose a PvE ship there as a result. I seriously doubt I'll lose one in high sec either, but for me it is more likely. There is so much background noise in high sec you'd be paralysed with inaction to be as safe as you are in other sec. Hence my remark about being less likely to die in low/null than high in a 'bearing capacity.

Perhaps it is simply an opinion thing I'm not conveying well.
Darth Schweinebacke
Wings of Fury.
#96 - 2014-11-10 14:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Schweinebacke
afkalt wrote:
You misunderstood my point - I was simply saying that the danger is much easier to see in low/null and I have never and probably will never lose a PvE ship there as a result. I seriously doubt I'll lose one in high sec either, but for me it is more likely. There is so much background noise in high sec you'd be paralysed with inaction to be as safe as you are in other sec. Hence my remark about being less likely to die in low/null than high in a 'bearing capacity.

Perhaps it is simply an opinion thing I'm not conveying well.


The thing is... outside of high sec you are forced to pay attention to what is happening around you, because of the much higher risk, while in high sec there is risk, but the risk is a lot lower which leads to people paying a lot less attention to their environment.

Groups being capable of killing high EHP ships are quite easy to spot and avoid as well, as long as you pay attention. Groupse that are capable of ganking these kinds of ships usually are quite well known and if people do not set standings to easily spot them or hang out in systems regularly with a local so full of ppl that it is almost impossible to spot them, then it is their own fault, but that has not much to do with high sec being more dangerous than 0.0 or LS, which is what Veers and that individual he behaves like are pretending over and over again.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2014-11-10 14:45:51 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Darth Schweinebacke wrote:
afkalt wrote:
You misunderstood my point - I was simply saying that the danger is much easier to see in low/null and I have never and probably will never lose a PvE ship there as a result. I seriously doubt I'll lose one in high sec either, but for me it is more likely. There is so much background noise in high sec you'd be paralysed with inaction to be as safe as you are in other sec. Hence my remark about being less likely to die in low/null than high in a 'bearing capacity.

Perhaps it is simply an opinion thing I'm not conveying well.


The thing is... outside of high sec you are forced to pay attention to what is happening around you, because of the much higher risk, while in high sec there is risk, but the risk is a lot lower which leads to people paying a lot less attention to their environment.


Yes and no. The point I was going for is that it is easier to pay attention outside of high sec because of the lack of white noise. Basically.

I actually pay more heed in high sec than null when in system due to the massive traffic flux in high sec, scanning local takes a scroll bar(!) to see if known threats are about/short dscanning to watch for probes (which may or may not be on you, or the rattlesnake next door, or the paladin maybe). Whereas in null, if local moves an inch - you know what to do. I actually find it more work to stay safe in high sec than I do in null for reasons like this. Which is fine, I don't have a problem with it, just trying to explain it a bit more clearly (I'm rarely at odds with Jenn Blink ).

I still feel I'm not explaining it very well, hopefully getting there though.



Edit: You're right many gankers are known, but as I've seen myself, a fleet of catalysts with a bunch of unaffiliated new accounts in them...less easy to foresee.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#98 - 2014-11-10 15:12:19 UTC
Tollen Gallen wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
You(op) sound like Yossarian from Catch 22.



I like that movie.



I like the book better. Movie is good, book is brilliant.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#99 - 2014-11-10 15:19:00 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Buffed up sentry guns would end these stupid gate camps, and create more conflict in the systems rather than just gatecamp massacres. Might make people actually WANT to LIVE in lowsec.


It would result in much, much less conflict.

Because one of the few places you can actually catch people is on gates.

And as for making people want to live in lowsec, the solution is simple. Highsec needs to be savagely nerfed, so it doesn't overshadow lowsec.


Highsec has been nerfed enough, buff low and null.


Nullsec is already more profitable and less risky than highsec. The problem with lowsec isn't rewards, its the pathetic gatecamps that stifle play. If anything highsec needs massive buffs to counteract the gankers/wardeccers/awoxers, etc.... and to make it more profitable than ultra safe blue donut space.


You are delusional. Seek help.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-11-10 16:07:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Keep defending the golden goose, Tears.

But we all know that increasing average wealth without corresponding loss causes inflation. That's pretty much the definition.

And the major culprit of that is highsec incursions, since it's the most consistent personal income in the game. You guys are printing money there, thanks largely to the over buffed safety of highsec. You fatten yourselves up at the expense of the rest of the game. Despicable.

[edit: Are you freaking serious? "less effort to acquire them results in higher prices"? So, easier to obtain somehow leads to more scarcity? Are you high again?



Actually, most of the isk printing comes from the null-bears farming npcs in the safest part of Eve....null-sec.