These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Make battleships and battlecruisers worth the warp! 2.0

First post
Author
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#41 - 2014-11-06 19:24:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
What should they and BCs bring on a grid that other ships don't alraedy do? This is the real question and needs to take into account possibility like blobs. Force multiplier are interesting mecanic for example but can get out of hands when the numbers grow too big like we see with logi.

One possibility that occurs to me, is that a BS should represent a next level to damage above cruisers and BCs.

Perhaps an approach similar to what happened to certain drone ships, such as the Gila, might work.

Using the Rokh as an example, try this:

Original: 8 Turret hardpoints.

Revised: 3 Turret hardpoints, but a multiplier to large turret damage of 500% normal damage.

This would take the original 8 turrets down to 3, but almost double the potential damage output.
The trade off, would be that only 3 targets could be attempted at most, and the damage would be more erratic.

Now, it would seem reasonable to me that tracking would suffer here, possibly, as a balance aspect.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#42 - 2014-11-06 19:24:56 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
What should they and BCs bring on a grid that other ships don't alraedy do? This is the real question and needs to take into account possibility like blobs. Force multiplier are interesting mecanic for example but can get out of hands when the numbers grow too big like we see with logi.

I want battleships to mostly bring what they have always brought, pain and durability. I'm all for letting HACs have damage mitigation hands down, and letting squishy ABCs exist, and mostly OK with t3s being able to get most of both at three + times the cost. But in my mind, baring capitals, battleships should bring the most pain, and be hard to kill until you get into the blobs which break anything.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

MukkBarovian
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-11-06 20:01:54 UTC
I think CCP are looking into T3s. Battleships are pretty balanced if you ignore T3s and bombers. Rather than agitate for a big BS buff, I think the correct solution is simply to scale back the BS warp speed penalties. Something like BC 2.75, BS 2.5 would be nice.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#44 - 2014-11-06 20:09:26 UTC
MukkBarovian wrote:
I think CCP are looking into T3s. Battleships are pretty balanced if you ignore T3s and bombers. Rather than agitate for a big BS buff, I think the correct solution is simply to scale back the BS warp speed penalties. Something like BC 2.75, BS 2.5 would be nice.

Thank you, but I'm pretty sure that if the tears the first time, and the last dozen threads here weren't enough to get them to do it, no amount of forumwhining is going to. Also as getting the battleships and to that speed without using a single module or rig is trivial for a player with even medium deep pockets if you do not NEED some other implants to be able to play the game makes that a bad argument, as people have been unwilling to even consider bringing things slower than cruisers, and the buff makes it trivial to get them to frigate speed.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2014-11-06 20:20:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
MukkBarovian wrote:
I think CCP are looking into T3s. Battleships are pretty balanced if you ignore T3s and bombers. Rather than agitate for a big BS buff, I think the correct solution is simply to scale back the BS warp speed penalties. Something like BC 2.75, BS 2.5 would be nice.


I'm surprised you'd say so, I've gone up against PL a couple of times when they fielded napocs with archon support, and considering who you were fighting against, it didn't do as one sided as I expected they would against eagles. I'd say that the average PL player is probably a little more experienced and well skilled than the players you were up against, PL also had good bomber support on the field, eyes in the enemy fleet, really high end loki support, and napocs fit with triple plates and t2 rigs, and honestly, I was very surprised by how many napocs went down.

All things considered, it was a fun fight, and I'm glad PL brought napocs instead of t3s, but I think it shows how resilient hac doctrines are against battleships.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#46 - 2014-11-06 22:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
Dear James,
I promised you something different but with further reading I changed my mind and will just add a few comments.

While being viable, talking about tracking and other turret attributes will not bring us closer to what you want to achieve. So let me just give a few comments on the ships themselves.

Rokh:
While an excellent sniper with 425mm railguns at insane ranges of today, she lacks some mobility. If you forgo to fit a large cap booster you will cap yourself out with prolonged fireing of antimatter L, javelin L and spike L

Megathron:
You can do both with her, sniping and brawling and she can field a strong active tank but still lacks some mobility.

Navy-thron:
This would be the Megathron done right.

Navy Dominix:
Feels like a less agile Hyperion but doesn't lack any firepower.

Hyperion:
For short jumps and in a pure battleship field, she can hold her own with an unmatched active tank. I wouldn't recommend sniping with her though.
The speed and agility seems fine.

Apocalypse:
Here I have to admit that I don't have a very long experience with lasers but what I have seen so far is that both pulse and beam laser fits are "punished by their gun" so to speak.
She could be a tad more agile but the speed is okay-ish but both tech 2 pulse and beam laser crystals will cause more problems than their powergrid requirement.

Navy Apocalypse:
Better fitting, better everything. Doesn't suffer too much from shooting tech 2 crystals for a long period of time.

Navy Armageddon:
I like her. Good overall mobility, firepower is okay but still she suffers from shooting the guns for a long period of time, even more so with the bonuses.

Abbadon:
As you said, nice brick.
She is better suited for fitting lots of 1600mm plates and have an Archon behind her to give her capacitor and armor reps.
The capacitor is just sad and being a laser-boat - I got nothing..

Nightmare:
Also nice brick. Wait what?
Yeah, the Nightmare is one of the coolest looking ships in EVE but she could use some better engines. She is in dire need of more agility and a stronger afterburner bonus (not base speed).
An active shield tank and even just four turret still hurt the capacitor alot.

Large Laser Turrets:
My advice would be in case of dire capacitor needs, shoot with standard L only.
Anything that comes closer than 20km on beam laser ships will be the end of that fight.
Anthing that gets below 5km for large pulse laser and it webbed and scrammed, will make your large hull convert into a white triangle, unless it's a Nightmare.

Hybrid Turrets:
Large railguns will put close to the same pressure on any capacitor, unless it's the Naga or a Talos.
Large blasters don't have much capacitor problems, just range problems and tracking problems small and close objects.

Overall:
All battleships are in dire need of better technology. Meaning, all sensor resolutions should be in a range of 150-175mm.
By the time you may have a target lock on anything, you will probably have to upgrade your clone again.

This must be a terrible funny joke in the Island office but the Caldari invented technology and they have the sensor resolution of a galaxy cluster, they should have the highest sensor resolution of all ships in EVE.

What I can live with is warping with 2 AU/s on the way to action but what I cannot live with is the terrible brakes we have of the largest engines in New Eden.

S..............................................................l............................................................o...........................................................w...................................ing down in 6d5h45m. Please wait.

Weeks later and looking around on the grid.

WARP DRIVE ACTIVE.....................(hey I landed half an hour ago)...................................WARP DRIVE ACTIVE.....................................

One hour later..

Aaaah finally.

I cannot comment on minmatar ships or auto-cannons.

And as promised, I'll leave comments about missiles out of this.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#47 - 2014-11-07 04:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaerakh
James Baboli wrote:


@ Kaerakh: Yep. The t2 cruisers are pretty darned nasty, and especially so in W-space, where mass restrictions and system effects are going to limit a whole bunch of the battleships fairly hard. While I never played around in big boy W-space, I know how annoying getting a group of battleships around in W-space can be from when I was fairly new and played in c1-3 space in a battleship or a cane because nothing else I could fly survived. I would like to see battleships viable everywhere, but making them fully balanced in W-space isn't gonna happen if you retain K-space balance, as the mass is simply going to be a problem.


I was more complaining about wormhole mass mechanics in general, but it's all good.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#48 - 2014-11-07 08:49:52 UTC
Nothing to add just yet, but wanted ya to know that I'm keeping an eye on this thread...
Someone's got to make all these reworked Battleships and Battlecruisers after all. Big smile

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Ix Method
Doomheim
#49 - 2014-11-07 08:59:03 UTC
\o/ The day is saved! Lol

See James I told you she was coming. Come down off that bridge now, there's a good lad.

Travelling at the speed of love.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#50 - 2014-11-07 10:01:52 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Nothing to add just yet, but wanted ya to know that I'm keeping an eye on this thread...
Someone's got to make all these reworked Battleships and Battlecruisers after all. Big smile

--Gadget

As I have minimal experience with industry, and that mostly with building mods from dropped BPCs, this helps alot. Do you have general feelings on battleship and battlecruiser production as they stand?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Katarina The Despoiler
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#51 - 2014-11-07 11:44:12 UTC
Theres been so many buffs to frig and cruiser hulls, that the BS have been left behind, It's at the point now, where BS is trained to jump onto caps... Many PvE applications for BS are overshadowed by T3s, t1 BS over shadowed in incursions by faction BS which generally don't get used in PvP anyway.

I feel for the most part battle ships aren't even worth training these days and I would love to see any buffs or changes to them to encourage mid - advanced SP players to use them once more.

Time Will Tell, Sooner or Later, Time Will Tell.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#52 - 2014-11-07 14:18:08 UTC
Katarina The Despoiler wrote:
Theres been so many buffs to frig and cruiser hulls, that the BS have been left behind, It's at the point now, where BS is trained to jump onto caps... Many PvE applications for BS are overshadowed by T3s, t1 BS over shadowed in incursions by faction BS which generally don't get used in PvP anyway.

I feel for the most part battle ships aren't even worth training these days and I would love to see any buffs or changes to them to encourage mid - advanced SP players to use them once more.

This is something I agree with.

It is something I may have mistakenly skipped over, assuming that everyone already accepted the details of.

The BS has been made obsolete by cruisers and battlecruisers, at this point.
In almost any PvP situation where the tactics are based on mobility and the ability to react, they are not the best first choice for a group.

I see two paths for these ships, maybe even a combination, but I don't expect anything but the second option.

Option 1, CCP takes back the cruiser and battlecruiser aspects which have made BS use unattractive.

Option 2, taking the cues from the Tech 2 BS examples, we rethink the BS as an ambush predator styled vessel.
It's targets come to it, instead of it going to them.

The Marauder, by using bastion mode, locks itself down and stands it's ground as a fortified position.

The BlOps, by most practical use, avoids all direct contact and enables other ships to go places that were previously not cost effective to consider.

We don't have a mobility centric role, better performed by a BS than a cruiser.
I seriously doubt we want one, in fact.

Put simply, as a foundation for the BS concept itself, how exactly do we want to see these being used?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#53 - 2014-11-07 14:19:10 UTC
Katarina The Despoiler wrote:
Theres been so many buffs to frig and cruiser hulls, that the BS have been left behind, It's at the point now, where BS is trained to jump onto caps... Many PvE applications for BS are overshadowed by T3s, t1 BS over shadowed in incursions by faction BS which generally don't get used in PvP anyway.

I feel for the most part battle ships aren't even worth training these days and I would love to see any buffs or changes to them to encourage mid - advanced SP players to use them once more.


Yes exactly.

The changes to frigates and tech 1 cruisers were necessary and well recieved. Battlecruisers of the former tier 1 and 2 classes got lesser changes and at least in the Gallente thread the devs listened to what we said.

The tier 3 class battlecruiser got minor changes in agility which now turn out to be unwarrented.

Battleships were divided into attack and combat classes and were shaved of some base ehp for minor base speed changes.

Note:
The recent change to the capacitor need of 100nm mwds were a nice touch and in edge cases were you need high velocities for a longer duration this helps battleships alot.

When the "tiericide" was announced, I made a long post in which I raised some concerns about "balancing". Experience showed a tendency to give instead of taking away.

Now we have frigates doing 200-300 dps which doesn't sound much but everyone who attended primary school will know how to add values.
Now five frigates or less are capable of murdering battleships without breaking a sweat.

Everyone in their right mind will ask her or himself, why would I want to fly brick that cannot keep up or track all those smaller ships?
For the same pricetag I can buy a HAC or some small tech 1 cruisers for me and some buddies and do amazing stuff.

The only place where you can see a lot of battleship being used are in nullsec for ratting, mission runners and SiSi.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-11-07 14:25:28 UTC
Too fat to do sub cap work where mobility matter a lot, not strong enough to do strategic jobs where cap are more effective.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#55 - 2014-11-07 14:45:57 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Too fat to do sub cap work where mobility matter a lot, not strong enough to do strategic jobs where cap are more effective.


Very true on both accounts.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#56 - 2014-11-07 14:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Excellent thread and OP. Yes we all agree that BSs and BCs are now overlooked. I will add my voice to those saying the warp speed nerf to them was overdone. And most people seem to be asking for some measure of hp buff.

However, another aspect that seems to be getting less notice itt is the economics. When I started playing pvp in 2007 (on another character) a BS was around 90-120mil, and HACs etc were about 140-180. BSs got used then heavily for sniper BS fleets. Then came remote rep BSs. This BS usage continued even as sniper BS was killed with scan changes and range nerfs. They survived as relevant comps even with first the rise of sniper HACs and then even some usage with AHAC ascendancy.

But the one + two punch of increased price and warp speed has killed them. I don't miss the BC hegemony. Having chaep and easy to skill Drakes and Hurricanes everywhere was boring. But the old mixed BS fleets (whether sniper or rr) were nice to see.

When a BS costs 200+ mil and a HAC costs about the same of course the HAC makes more sense (warp speed and mobility reinforces that choice).

There is also the skill investment. Some folks say well a HAC should be more powerful than a BS because it is tech II. However, properly fitting a BS with large tech II weapons is about an equivalent sp investment and possibly more than training a HAC with tech II medium weapons. The sp investment argument holds more validity with BCs.

Anyway, yes lighten up the mobility nerfs on BSs, maybe throw some small measure of ehp their way as well. But also fix the economics of building the damn things. Looking for a target price of 150mil or so would help us see more BS competing against HAC, tech III, or now even CS fleets.

For small gang, a lone BS or BC should never be a tanking or applicable damage beast. It should rightly die if it gets mobbed by smaller ****.

I hope Fozzie et al are reading this thread Smile

edit - oh also forgot to mention the blap dread hotdrop as a nail in the coffin for BS fleets. Maybe that is already being addressed with other recent changes.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#57 - 2014-11-08 05:29:16 UTC
Response round up 3

@ Katarina The Despoiler: I'm glad to hear more voices crying out for this sort of change. Its a damned shame to me that so many of the really nice looking hulls with lots of history are effectively unusable at this point, even if it is because several other ships got brought up to a reasonable spot.

@ Nikk Narrel: I see two or 3 approaches arising if this is done right.
1: You have skirmishing attack battleships to slow down, stop or otherwise interdict capital fleet roams, with lots of firepower, but which disappear like a gnat in a blast furnace if they start taking a large portion of the fire aimed at them. Much more agile than they are now, they represent a balance of mobility and hostility at the battle ship level.
2: You have tough, doughy and durable combat battleships which can bring the pain, and last long enough to catch reps in medium scale fights, and which are worth bringing into larger fights for the relative durability and raw DPS to capitals and structures when your own capitals cannot be brought to bear. Good bricks, with which to grind an opposing fleet into dust if the support gets them pinned down.
3: Disruption battleships should make the opposition wish for a merciful death, with the ability to shut down one or two opponents entirely if given the opportunity, or make trouble for a whole gang. Powerful and durable EWAR ships that don't need to be kept at extreme range because they have something more than a token tank.

@ Deacon Abox: Thank you! The economic hit to build such things, and the problems with getting them to places where they are needed, and the relative errosion of combat power all make these ships, beloved by much of the player base, very much unsuited to that which their name dedicates them, battle. They are mostly used to shoot red crosses, which makes me quite sad. The change to t2 insurance, which you didn't note, even further emphasizes your point, eroding the difference in the amount you can insure the two almost cost equivalent ships. As for never being a tank or applicable damage beast, I think that this is slightly off, as if a pilot builds a ship around one or the other concept, they should very well perform excellently in that chosen focus. I don't think they should be able to do both wonderfully with a t1 ship.


Update:
Closer to finishing the commentary on hybrids and lasers, projectile base stats and commentary are up.
Buffer and local tank mods in the battleship sizes are potentially being added to the table. Specifically thinking about a better cap/hp and larger armor rep, and a bigger shield extender, which are fitting prohibitive to put on t3s and battle-cruisers, to bring back an advantage in battleships in terms of tank-ability.

Blanket statement: I have set up an in game channel and a mailing list for discussing this in closer to real time. Channel and mailing list are both "Baboli Fitting Yards"

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#58 - 2014-11-08 12:17:24 UTC
Okay full disclaimer: I am a Fleet commander in Warp to me with Baboli and like the guy as a human being so i'm biassed as hell...

That said this feels "Correct". I like flying battleships, they are my weight class of choice in eve online. I dont mind them being lumbering brutes (what i like the legroom) and i dont mind them being tackle-able for people who may or may not have 1m isk to their name in an atron they got from the newbro program with a web and a scram they found in a level 1 mission.

That's all cool... you know "dont fly what you cant afford to lose"/HTFU etc. ad nauseum.

I wonder if given the name of the thread people have considered just letting **** bigger then (battle)cruisers warp without acceleration and deceleration. (not sure on the technical feasibility of this) It would let the BS get onto grid quicker and would give them a bit of a movement edge in regards to "oh f@*k a red warp".

I also like the idea of upping scanres on them in general Locking a frigate in 12 seconds with maxxed applicable skill is nice and all but wouldnt say 9 seconds also work? Would allow you atleast a glimmer of a chance to get the Atron barrling down on your ship with just enough transversal to be hard to hit...

Okay my limited pvp stories (*98% carebear talking*) I have had my best pvp fights in battleships, wormhole fights in spider -tanked-drone-dps-Armageddons (couple of domis and armor scorps thrown in for the lulz) where we fought off (and won against) 3:1 bricks of t3s with logi backup, or t2 cruiser roams and all the other things that supposedly "hardcounter" the BS as we all know them.

Now part of that was us using the wormhole to our advantage and locking part of their fleet out and such. But in my experience battleships can work in that type of configuration. Now my 8 man corp is hardly the guiding star of game balance but we managed to hold our own and were almost always isk-war green at the end. This -to me- suggest that if you make battleships better at tanking, either local or via some kind of spider setup, they become capable of stand up fights with the supposed hardcounters. Assuming you fly with a few guys who have their **** down to an art form (i was decent at best and i was by far the worst one in my corp at this stuff)

Ofcourse something like that might very well break nullsec blobs and lead back to the domain of the 1400mm fleets with some kind of baller tank on them, cannot speak to that. That said i at this time own 2 battleships, my incursion mach and a vargur i used to get jumpclone standings, i wish i had a reason to own more and actually use them. But at this time i just do not...

Sorry for stream of conciousness ranting but its the best i can do:)

Addendum: Why doesn't minmatar have a battleship with tracking bonusses? Even if you include pirates like the Mach you end up without a 1400 platform with a decent projection against non vindi-webbed targets.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#59 - 2014-11-08 13:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ix Method
FireFrenzy wrote:
Addendum: Why doesn't minmatar have a battleship with tracking bonusses? Even if you include pirates like the Mach you end up without a 1400 platform with a decent projection against non vindi-webbed targets.

Projection I guess, same reason lasers have **** tracking. In theory it makes sense but generally I agree, you just end up with missing options and **** ships that don't see much use.

Travelling at the speed of love.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#60 - 2014-11-08 15:18:09 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
-shorted-I also like the idea of upping scanres on them in general Locking a frigate in 12 seconds with maxxed applicable skill is nice and all but wouldnt say 9 seconds also work? Would allow you atleast a glimmer of a chance to get the Atron barrling down on your ship with just enough transversal to be hard to hit...


This is what I was going for with the scan resolution.

By the way, if you are on SiSi people will use links and snake implants (the signature ones) and a linked interceptor takes 30 seconds to lock on in a Rattlesnake, Scorpion and Scorpion Navy Issue.

"The minute" you have a target lock, that ceptor is either out of range or yoloing circles around you.

In the battleship changes threads other and I did say that increasing the scan resolution to the range of 150-175mm on all battleships (all the things at level V) will not suddenly make them op or breake EVE.

What happened then was that they more or less increaded and decreased the ehp on some ship to bring them "closer together".
The idea behind it wasn't bad but the execution left some questions like, so my boat has less ehp for some higher top speed and will cost twice as much ShockedShocked

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever