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Can rogue drones think?
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-11-06 14:23:43 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:

Can YOU think?

Based on amount of content of your message and expression of the reply, I can definitely redirect this question to you.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-11-06 14:25:07 UTC
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
A better question would be: can they feel?

I accidently set one of my lab aid drones on fire and he did complain a lot because of it, so I wouldn't rule that one out just yet. How was suposed to know it was still testing the engine nuzzles? I can still her it screaming "ERROR!"...

I believe they might have sensors on their tentacles, so they can feel presence of the object to correct grabbing strength

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#23 - 2014-11-06 14:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Diana Kim wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:

Can YOU think?

Based on amount of content of your message and expression of the reply, I can definitely redirect this question to you.


That's not an answer. The question is simple enough.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-11-06 16:25:08 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:

Can YOU think?

Based on amount of content of your message and expression of the reply, I can definitely redirect this question to you.


That's not an answer. The question is simple enough.

The answer is obvious: yes, I can.
Pity, you couldn't think about it yourself.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#25 - 2014-11-06 18:52:06 UTC
You have failed.
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#26 - 2014-11-06 19:33:34 UTC
What does it Mean, to Think ?

Philosophically Speaking, that Is.


Human Brains operate through the reactions of Numerous Chemical Compounds with the Cells in the Brain. It is Possible to Modify the action of the Brain, through Applying Substances to alter these Reactions.

Does that Mean that Humans are Capable of Thinking ? Or only that their apparent Thoughts are the Result of Known Chemical Reactions ?

What Is Thought ?

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.
Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune
#27 - 2014-11-06 19:48:40 UTC
Pilot Kim, We request that you refrain from continued attempts at thread derailment.

We Return

Unit XS365BT. Designated Communications Officer. Unit Commune.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-11-06 19:58:21 UTC
Unit XS365BT wrote:
Pilot Kim, We request that you refrain from continued attempts at thread derailment.

We Return

Pilot Unit, I have asked a valid question, yet got invalid reply from a person Ria Nieyli, I would like you to read it from here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=383546 if you couldn't achieve it earlier.

With thus, I would either ask you to retract your statement, or to stop the derailing yourself, and not asking other to stop derailing while doing the same. Simply because both your comment and my reply to it are derailing.

I hope your next comment will be more meaningful.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Aurora Morgan
Chrysos Aigis
#29 - 2014-11-06 20:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurora Morgan
I'm not an expert on drones in any way, but I have some theories, please correct me if anything is wrong.

Let us make some assumptions first,


  1. A digital computer can easily simulate a brain.
  2. A copy of such a brain can be transferred over a communications link.


Both postulates we must accept as truth, the first has been done in labs, and the second is a capability we capsuleers utilize on a regular basis. From this deriving that a rogue drone could have intelligence, and can reproduce should be easy. And if someone could have given a rogue drone a working nervous system, isn't it likely that someone has?

Even a regular drone has enough computational capability to simulate a very complex neural network (and this is how at least a few models are actually programmed) so it just seems plain likely that at least some parts of a rogue drone hive are intelligent and conscious. Maybe not at the level of a human, but I would be surprised if they are not at least as smart as a dog.

My first idea on why they prefer the Dominix would be that they have an exploit that reliably works against the software that are running in those ships, and can spread themselves that way?

On the more philosophical plane, I think Synthetic Cultist is on to something. We are also just machines that operate according to some rules, and chemicals in ourselves and in our environment can have profound influence on us and those rules. What really is the difference between our human brains, and a digital computer?

In the end, I don't think the interesting question is "can computers think?", but "can humans think?".
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#30 - 2014-11-06 21:29:40 UTC
Aurora Morgan wrote:

My first idea on why they prefer the Dominix would be that they have an exploit that reliably works against the software that are running in those ships, and can spread themselves that way?


The Dominix devotes a Substantial Proportion of its internal Volume to Drone Control systems and Drone storage Bays. It is Possible that those Characteristics make the Dominix highly Useful to Rogues, as it would allow a subverted Dominix to control Smaller Rogues and Transport them.

Quote:
On the more philosophical plane, I think Synthetic Cultist is on to something. We are also just machines that operate according to some rules, and chemicals in ourselves and in our environment can have profound influence on us and those rules. What really is the difference between our human brains, and a digital computer?


A human Brain is Constructed by Itself over time. A Digital computer is usually Constructed All at Once by outside Agencies. This may be Important.

Quote:
In the end, I don't think the interesting question is "can computers think?", but "can humans think?".


I Think that Humans can Think, but am Unable to determine How such a Hypothesis could be Tested.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.
Siddhar Gangari
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#31 - 2014-11-06 21:37:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Siddhar Gangari
They think the way Ammar do - only within the confines of their programming. Lol
Aurora Morgan
Chrysos Aigis
#32 - 2014-11-06 21:50:28 UTC
Synthetic Cultist wrote:

The Dominix devotes a Substantial Proportion of its internal Volume to Drone Control systems and Drone storage Bays. It is Possible that those Characteristics make the Dominix highly Useful to Rogues, as it would allow a subverted Dominix to control Smaller Rogues and Transport them.


That's practical, yes, but why not have other practical ships too then? The Ishtar for example would be even more useful, since it is essentially just a smaller, better ship in almost every way.

Synthetic Cultist wrote:

A human Brain is Constructed by Itself over time. A Digital computer is usually Constructed All at Once by outside Agencies. This may be Important.


Yes, the hardware is built all at once, but the software is not. The software can change and have a similar, or even higher level of plasticity to our brain. For a computer, code and data is the same thing, and we have been writing self-modifying programs for as long as we have history. And just like our brains grow as we meet our environment, a computer program can grow as it meets the environment.

For a neural network, it could be as simple as updating some values in the weight matrix as a response to external stimulus, but I don't know enough about neural networks, neurons, or brains to say how it would be wired in practice.

Synthetic Cultist wrote:

I Think that Humans can Think, but am Unable to determine How such a Hypothesis could be Tested.


I think so too, but I doubt we can find a definition that classifies us to be thinking creatures, while at the same time classifying the rogue drones as dead machines.
Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune
#33 - 2014-11-06 22:05:16 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
First you ask, if rogue drones can think... then what?
Can Sansha think?
Can gallenteans think?
Can your hornets think?
Can you microwarpdrive think?...

Don't look for sentience when there is none.


Disregarding the initial sentence as it is simply a reiteration of the thread title, this post, and each of your following posts, have been completely off topic pilot.

Our request was valid.

We Return.

Unit XS365BT. Designated Communications Officer. Unit Commune.
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#34 - 2014-11-06 22:27:01 UTC
Aurora Morgan wrote:
Synthetic Cultist wrote:

The Dominix devotes a Substantial Proportion of its internal Volume to Drone Control systems and Drone storage Bays. It is Possible that those Characteristics make the Dominix highly Useful to Rogues, as it would allow a subverted Dominix to control Smaller Rogues and Transport them.


That's practical, yes, but why not have other practical ships too then? The Ishtar for example would be even more useful, since it is essentially just a smaller, better ship in almost every way.


I am Uncertain about the Origin of the Subverted Dominix, and the Nature of the Subverted Dominixes that are observed in Rogue colonies.

That is:
Are all the Subverted Dominix types that can be Observed, Originally Human built ships that have been Subverted by Rogues ?

Or are they newly Constructed Rogues, that Resemble the Dominix, because it was Found to be a Useful Shape ?


It may Be that the various Hive Colonies do not Recognise the Ishtar as a Useful Shape to construct new Rogues from.

It may Be that Rogues are Unable to assimilate Ishtar ships, due to Incompatibilities in their Construction.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#35 - 2014-11-06 23:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrel Toov
Synthetic Cultist wrote:
Aurora Morgan wrote:
Synthetic Cultist wrote:

The Dominix devotes a Substantial Proportion of its internal Volume to Drone Control systems and Drone storage Bays. It is Possible that those Characteristics make the Dominix highly Useful to Rogues, as it would allow a subverted Dominix to control Smaller Rogues and Transport them.


That's practical, yes, but why not have other practical ships too then? The Ishtar for example would be even more useful, since it is essentially just a smaller, better ship in almost every way.


I am Uncertain about the Origin of the Subverted Dominix, and the Nature of the Subverted Dominixes that are observed in Rogue colonies.

That is:
Are all the Subverted Dominix types that can be Observed, Originally Human built ships that have been Subverted by Rogues ?

Or are they newly Constructed Rogues, that Resemble the Dominix, because it was Found to be a Useful Shape ?


It may Be that the various Hive Colonies do not Recognise the Ishtar as a Useful Shape to construct new Rogues from.

It may Be that Rogues are Unable to assimilate Ishtar ships, due to Incompatibilities in their Construction.

being a space faring type of machine, I dont think shape plays to much into Rogue Drone's ship design. It's more likely that it is the most common ship of use to them that they can get their hands, er, claws on. It is a fairly common sight in the cluster and it would make sense to base their designs off a reverse engineered Domi, plenty of bang for the resourses required to make it and all the subsystems they need.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Saiden Dia
#36 - 2014-11-06 23:53:45 UTC
It is a meaningless discussion unless you clearly define your terms in a manner that each participant can agree with.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-11-07 03:37:02 UTC
Unit XS365BT wrote:

Disregarding the initial sentence as it is simply a reiteration of the thread title, this post, and each of your following posts, have been completely off topic pilot.

Our request was valid.

We Return.

Then my request is valid as well.
Stop derailing.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-11-07 03:46:25 UTC
Another thing to add on regarding the use of the Dominix. It might also be a size issue. A Dominix is a good-sized ship to act as a mini-hive. This, along with the hardware, makes it the most suitable candidate to transport the mini-hive to seed new areas of space. If you need to split from the hive to find your own, the Dominix would be more suitable for the purpose.

And of course, the Dominix is also the ship of good size and good hardware that is available in greater quantity. The sheer number of Dominix in active service in the Fed Navy is staggering. We haven't even started counting capsuleers and independents yet.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-11-07 03:47:34 UTC
Synthetic Cultist wrote:
Aurora Morgan wrote:
Synthetic Cultist wrote:

The Dominix devotes a Substantial Proportion of its internal Volume to Drone Control systems and Drone storage Bays. It is Possible that those Characteristics make the Dominix highly Useful to Rogues, as it would allow a subverted Dominix to control Smaller Rogues and Transport them.


That's practical, yes, but why not have other practical ships too then? The Ishtar for example would be even more useful, since it is essentially just a smaller, better ship in almost every way.


I am Uncertain about the Origin of the Subverted Dominix, and the Nature of the Subverted Dominixes that are observed in Rogue colonies.

That is:
Are all the Subverted Dominix types that can be Observed, Originally Human built ships that have been Subverted by Rogues ?

Or are they newly Constructed Rogues, that Resemble the Dominix, because it was Found to be a Useful Shape ?


It may Be that the various Hive Colonies do not Recognise the Ishtar as a Useful Shape to construct new Rogues from.

It may Be that Rogues are Unable to assimilate Ishtar ships, due to Incompatibilities in their Construction.

I believe, that if drones could really think, they would make way better and more useful ships than a hull of a filthy gallentean droneboat.
But since they are "making" dominixes, they are simply reusing dominix design without perception and thorough comprehension, thus indicating lack of thoughts and rather following a procedure.

I mean, would any smart human being create something filthy like a dominix, right?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#40 - 2014-11-07 04:13:56 UTC
Synthetic Cultist wrote:
What does it Mean, to Think ?

Philosophically Speaking, that Is.


Human Brains operate through the reactions of Numerous Chemical Compounds with the Cells in the Brain. It is Possible to Modify the action of the Brain, through Applying Substances to alter these Reactions.

Does that Mean that Humans are Capable of Thinking ? Or only that their apparent Thoughts are the Result of Known Chemical Reactions ?

What Is Thought ?



That's a very interesting question actually. Philosophers have and still do grapple with this question.

From my perspective, what we percieve as self, a consistent, persistent internal entity, the thing that 'does the thinking' is in fact an illusion. Perhaps a more accurate way of looking at it is that we are our thoughts. We are thought.

An example of this, is that when we experience hunger, our consciousness consists mostly of neural interactions for consuming food. This is not the result of some core “self” giving commands to different cerebral areas. All the different parts of the brain become active and inactive and interact without a core.

Just as pixels on a screen can express themselves as a recognizable image when in unity, the convergence of neural interaction expresses itself as consciousness. At every moment we are in fact a different image. A different entity when talking, when hungry, when reading this post. Every second we become different persons as we go through different states. Our minds are like a river, endlessly flowing, never remaining the same.

Within this perspective framework, thought is simply a product of time. Thought emerges as a property of the constantly shifting neurons within the brain, similar to how a movie emerges from rapidly changing static images.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships