Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Google tells me that EVE has roughly 7,000 solar systems, with about 2,000 of those being hisec.

That leaves 5,000 solar systems for non-WarDec PVP.

In my standard weeknight playing time, there are roughly 18,000 players logged on. Of those, I'm guessing that at least 50% are living in highsec.

So that's 9000 possible PVP players occupying 5000 solar sytems.

In order to find fleet action, the fleet must travel.

Increasing the EHP or DPS of a battleship would certainly be nice, but it doesn't address the core problem that was created by CCP back in Rubicon. Battleships, and to a certain extent, BCs, simply move too slow.


CCP Fozzie released some nice google spreadsheets showing the changes, but curiously never combined the information into a single document. Users had load both webpages and number crunch on their own in order to discern the true effects. The bottom line numbers ended up looking something similar* to this:

50 au warp speed in seconds
(old-new-change)

BS 47-->69 +46%
BC 47-->56 +20%
CS 47-->51 +8%
CR 47-->47
DS 47-->32 -31%
FG 39-->28 -30%
IN 39-->21 -46%


CCP has tendency to make grand gestures in their balancing attempts; those attempts often fall short. With as many nuances as EVE has, true balance can only be achieved by making small incremental adjustments.

With the exception of the Machariel you cannot roam in battleships. Battlecrusiers are pretty awful for roaming although t2 with the 10% warp speed bonus are marginally workable.

Battleships brawl pretty well. That is a few of the good armor ones brawl pretty well.That would be the Dominix, the Armageddon, the Megathron, the Tempest Fleet Issue, and the Apocalypse Navy Issue.

I'm pretty frustrated about the state of roaming battleships. I really liked zooming around in them. I've expended a lot of time and effort trying to make them work. I have found only one solution. Fit mid-grade ascendancy. Sacrificing lowslots and rigslots for warp speed is a bad deal. You lose the performance edge you were looking for in the larger ship in the first place. However ascendancy doesn't really work for anything other than solo. Add in that if you've got ascendancy fit you could fly a cruiser instead of a BS and enjoy near frigate warp speeds.

I think the problem with balancing CBC's and BS's because of warp speeds now is the fact that it's pretty easy to increase a battleship's warp speed to that of a cruiser

Also, the balance of a CBC in a fleet performing it's role of fleet booster (on grid) is actually really good. They tend to only lack when flown completely solo. (is that intentional game design??)

A single large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer and a 15% warp drive speed implant brings a BS up to 2.8 au/s which is very acceptable for travelling.

CBC's fair even better and simply using a 15% warp speed implant brings you up to 2.9 au/s

However, all this being said, I do feel that BS's and CBC's are a little underwhelming.

The largest issue for me is that BS's simply lack basic tank. They simply need to be stronger in basic EHP.

CBC's on the otherhand have different issues. Since the introduction of the MJD to CBC's they've added a much needed dynamic to the ship class. However, several of the hulls a simplyunable to fit them in their current configeration without completly gimping the ship.

In my experience and experimentation with CBC's I've found that the shield ships in particular really struggle with fitting a MJD and another prop mod.
Some of the CBC's also struggle to use the MJD offensively and this is because of their limited targeting range. To use a MJD offensively you really need to have your target prelocked before jumping to them so you can insta-engage on the otherside of the jump.
The Cyclone for example has a pitiful targeting range and it's very very difficult to push it's targeting range beyond the 100km threshold (without links). This makes using an MJD offensively very difficult. The Cyclone also has problems in slot layout and that fourth low slot is almost exclusively used for a CPU upgrade. To me things like this need to be addressed for CBC's first.

Back in September 2006 when I started with 50.000 skillpoint New Eden was huge. So huge that I have a travel time of close to an hour for seven jumps from Todaki -> Autaris.

It felt like the universe was a very big place. Maybe some of you might remember that having close to zero skillpoints in navigation made you have to warp in hops of 5-10AU at a time because you had to wait until your capacitor was recharged enough to make the next few warps to the 15km in front of the next gate that would take you to the next system.

With time and skillpoints the universe became smaller but not less interesting.

It almost pains me to say this but I will say it anyway.

Now listen very carefully, gods of the Jovean, I told you so!

Being accused of whatever you kids do on your weekends doesn't help the fact that I am a really, very bright cookie. I can predict things that will happen in the future long before they actually happen.

Yes, that sounds arrogant and I know that the truth hurts, but it doesn't change anything - big surprise..

So thanks again, Joveans, for fixing problems you created with modules and implants that weren't necessary before.

And nope, looking cool does not make the situation better, nor does this "offer" any choices that you want to make when you fly ships that are fitted for one purpose.

The Philosopher,
e2

All the suggestions for moar DPS and EHP, even application bonuses get ridiculous because combined with their sloth it just flat out buffs fighting at home - if anything a deterrent to roaming, which is stupid.

But this might be interesting. Perhaps tying it to sensor strength might be more nuanced than ship class but in general it might give the larger/specialised ships an edge that doesn't flat out OP them yet provides a solid reason to use them in various situations.

It would be a ***** to balance but that doesn't straight up make it something that shouldn't happen.

The big point of the bigger ship, is that it had range that was a game changer.
The secondary aspect was that damage per shot was also bigger.

We have made the existing battleships obsolete, by giving their defense to cruisers, and handing their offense to tier 3 BCs.

I think it is time to unlock the BS.
We have been using it purely in a tactical sense. But the truth is, at least in real world examples, these were the first strategic weapons.

They shelled targets which they needed spotters to pinpoint, because they were too far to effectively spot for themselves.

I believe we simply need to add in something, which I refer to as the strategic weapon set.
Weapons, cannons beam weapons and missiles, which cannot target ships on the same grid as they are.

These weapons would rely strictly on other ships, who are at least far enough away to not be on the same grid / visible on the overview.
They would target this ship, the same way a capital ship locks onto a cyno to jump with.

Then, when they DO fire these strategic weapons, the damage would have a slight delay before arriving.
(Think like missiles are delayed, which also gives smaller ships a better chance to change course in order to avoid being hit)

These would be artillery ships, or strategic missile launchers, as the case may be.
They would require escorts, as their immediate defense would need to be out sourced normally.

That is my view.

Just going to put this out there, but I looked at the Doc and you were ignoring Black Ops and Marauders. Any changes to Large guns would impact them. The Same goes for Tier 3 BCs - you cannot buff their primary weapon system with them without a nerf to balance the changes.

So what if CCP makes them warp faster? They land on grid to be obliterated by t3s, bombs and HACs? Battleships were bad before the warp speed changes, and so were most of the CBCs. Besides, I feel like Rise and Fozzie are stuck on warp speeds, and won't change them.

Response roundup 2!
Blanket statement: One thing I am looking at, based on several of these responses is to increase agility somewhat across the board, so the fully skilled align times are roughly 9s for the attack battle ships and 12s for combat battleships (which just saves the trouble in straight travel of lighting an MWD for the combat battleships), and bring combat battle cruisers to sit just above cruisers at just between 7 and 8s base align times. While this means getting to a fight is a only little faster on its own, it does mean ascendancy or other warp speed increases are more valuable.

@ Khan Wrenth: I hope not to disappoint.

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@CW Itovuo: Thank you for pulling out that data and saving me the trouble. Also, totally love your comment about grand gestures and little steps to find balance, this is supposed to be trying to get these things from the football field, into the ballpark so that someone with access to more data about usage and so on can actually get them balanced. I do not think I will get them perfect in one step, but everyone agrees that right now they almost aren't worth it to use at a distance and are far too vulnerable to several things that are currently the "in" meta.

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@Viribus: That was definitely a thorough break down of several points of why I think battle ships need help. As for several of your points, I agree to an extent, but because this wouldn't instantly put them to the top of the meta means that it is a fairl safe step towards balance. I don't want to instantly make these ships so much better that they entirely displace the current meta, but rather make them viable in more situations.

Point by point:
Maelstroms: This is one reason why artillery and ACs are going to be getting about as much of a look as will large missiles. While I anticipate far less of a buff will be needed to get them into line, they need some love. As for being bombed of the field and terrible EHP, these are likely a problem with a ship that seems designed for artillery not having enough grid to fit it well.

Armageddon:
Remember the mixed fleet composition thing? Having a couple battleships in a fleet, who may be fully warp-speed buffed or may be lagging behind, as the heavy firepower for after you land some tackle on those kiting boats, is the intended state. Telling me that battleships take forever in warp is not exactly news, but there are still these lovely things called webs and scrams.

Hyperion:
It has nothing particularly right with it either. The changes to other ship classes have left it long in the tooth, and well suited to the environment three years ago, as you said. Making it viable if not perfect in the current state of the game is the point of these changes.

Pirate battleships:
1: yep, nestor needs to get redone from the ground up. I have what I think is a cool middle ground for it between the BLOPS ships that people want, and the crazy pocket battleship scanning logi thing CCP seems to want.
2: Yep, but the barghest is a reasonable hull if you were to fix large missiles, or even make the base heavies usable enough to make RHML fits viable. The point/scram bonuses on it, while out of place on a battleship, would make it one of the few battleships that can land tackle even given how long it takes to come out of warp.
3: Yep, but making it scarier just means people will bring a bigger blob. It wouldn't be balanced if you designed it against the people blobbing them.
4: Mach is a great hull, but the weapons it has a bonus to need a bit of love, which would make it slightly nicer.

Missing combat battlecruisers: I hope to make them good enough to be worth the rig to get them to roughly cruiser speed, and then toss them back into cruiser gangs.

As an aside, I think that more battleships with utility highs will be usable post pheobe because of the lovely bomb EHP nerf making them more vulnerable to smartbombs

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@ MukkBarovian: See, these changes are aimed at pilots like you, who bothered to get an ascendancy set for PvP rather than to boost their isk/hr in highsec, and are also an attempt to make it so that it is worth it to standardize how roams fit ascendancy and get FCs to learn how to deal with slower ships lagging behind the main group more sanely.

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@ Mike Whiite: I like the concept, but haven't seen a good implementation. If I thought I had the time, I would be adding that to the proposal as well. The sensor strengths and higher average lock ranges and slightly higher scan res that went out in Odyssey /Rubicon were a partial attempt at making them harder to shut down with EWAR but haven't seen anything official to that effect.

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@ Spugg Galdon: As it stands though, while getting them to cruiser warp speeds is possible, it isn't really worth it except for PvE and people like Baltech1 who have the money to put into implants and rigs on these ships. Your points about EHP in battleships are well taken, and increases in native buffer are on the way for combat battleships, while the attack battleships are mostly going to keep their current EHP numbers but get somewhat faster and much more nimble, to make an actual distinction.

As for your statements about CBCs, I like them a lot. They mostly suffer from being slower than t1 cruisers, but so entirely outclassed by t2 and faction cruisers outside brawling range. in part due to the lack of fitting space and in part due to barely better than cruiser sensor stats. In most places, they have the EHP and DPS to do well, its getting them into the fight and getting that DPS applied that is the problem.

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More respones soon!

What should they and BCs bring on a grid that other ships don't alraedy do? This is the real question and needs to take into account possibility like blobs. Force multiplier are interesting mecanic for example but can get out of hands when the numbers grow too big like we see with logi.