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Intergalactic Summit

 
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What can Amarr hope to gain?
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Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#41 - 2011-12-13 19:18:05 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
Aphoxema, in response to the situation you posed, then clearly one of you was meant to die.


So we can only know that everything that has happened to be God's will? If we can't predict what God will do or wants us to do, then why even calculate God in any decisions?
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#42 - 2011-12-13 19:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
Aphoxema, in response to the situation you posed, then clearly one of you was meant to die.

Astrid, my hypothetical specified that the first Holder did not understand the message, so the question of his obedience or defiance of God is not the real concern. Yes, he will still be held accountable for his actions, his failure to understand, when his life ends. I also made no mention of him seeking guidance, even though you are correct that it is true he certainly could speak to a priest for exactly that.


As the holder can approach a priest to understand God's message, the question of his obedience or defiance is very much of concern. Our hypothetical 'holder' has access to a priest, he has the capability to visit said priest, and actively chose not to seek a priest for assistance.

Since we can deduce that, as a relatively intelligent holder, he is fully aware of the the above, I can only reach two logical
conclusions:

A) That, for some reason, he is deliberately avoiding his religious duty (that is, to interpret and carry out God's will) -- which makes him an apostate.

or

B) That he simply doesn't want to understand God's will -- making him a heretic and a blasphemer.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2011-12-13 23:31:41 UTC
Aphoxema, you'll have to ask someone who does weigh the will of God in their decision process about that one. I'm ill equipped to offer an answer there.

Astrid, you're forgetting the third option.

C) While God cannot (or will not, depending on who you ask) force someone down a path different from what they choose for themselves, God can, will, and does make use of those who choose to willfully ignore or disobey, so regardless of A or B, God's will is still carried out even if it takes a failure and a timetable that does not suit the first Holder.

Look back over the situation I presented and you'll notice that the descendant of our first Holder is still a Holder themselves, with more power and influence than his ancestor. In a perfect and righteous system the only way for the House of these Holders to overcome the failure of it's earlier leader, is by admitting there was a failure, addressing it, and being penitent. I was attempting to illustrate that a failure in understanding, on the timetable of the first holder, could lead to an even greater success by someone later on. Of course at that point the debate could become something along the lines of "did God intend that all along?"

I'll admit I used this as an illustrative example and I did not anticipate as thorough an investigation into the situation. I'll be much more specific next time, should I use another hypothetical situation as an example.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#44 - 2011-12-14 02:21:44 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
Aphoxema, you'll have to ask someone who does weigh the will of God in their decision process about that one. I'm ill equipped to offer an answer there.

Astrid, you're forgetting the third option.

C) While God cannot (or will not, depending on who you ask) force someone down a path different from what they choose for themselves, God can, will, and does make use of those who choose to willfully ignore or disobey, so regardless of A or B, God's will is still carried out even if it takes a failure and a timetable that does not suit the first Holder.

Look back over the situation I presented and you'll notice that the descendant of our first Holder is still a Holder themselves, with more power and influence than his ancestor. In a perfect and righteous system the only way for the House of these Holders to overcome the failure of it's earlier leader, is by admitting there was a failure, addressing it, and being penitent. I was attempting to illustrate that a failure in understanding, on the timetable of the first holder, could lead to an even greater success by someone later on. Of course at that point the debate could become something along the lines of "did God intend that all along?"

I'll admit I used this as an illustrative example and I did not anticipate as thorough an investigation into the situation. I'll be much more specific next time, should I use another hypothetical situation as an example.


It just doesn't make sense to me. Given the devotion of most Amarrians to their religion and their god, I'd have thought that being chosen for a divine mission would be a life-changing moment for him. Turning it down because some future holder might be able do it better...I mean, God gave him this mission, and not that other holder....you'd think that figures into it somewhere....

I dunno....just doesn't make any sense to me.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-12-14 05:51:33 UTC
I don't believe this thread started as a theological debate? Was quite a bit more fun picking apart your little list than hearing everyone's terrible opinions on theology.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#46 - 2011-12-14 06:54:18 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
I don't believe this thread started as a theological debate? Was quite a bit more fun picking apart your little list than hearing everyone's terrible opinions on theology.



You know Vitalia it's been far more entertaining listening to intelligent and earnest discussion rather than your terrible opinion on everyone else's opinions.

When you get appointed as supreme being and master of the universe then you can judge what's a terrible theological viewpoint and what's not. Until then, hold your tongue.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2011-12-14 08:35:20 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
You know Vitalia it's been far more entertaining listening to intelligent and earnest discussion rather than your terrible opinion on everyone else's opinions.


But Ana, this is Silas. Terrible opinions on everyone else's opinions is literally all she has.

Anabella Rella wrote:
When you get appointed as supreme being and master of the universe then you can judge what's a terrible theological viewpoint and what's not.


Well see, she pretty much believes this has actually happened.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-12-14 14:05:25 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:


You know Vitalia it's been far more entertaining listening to intelligent and earnest discussion rather than your terrible opinion on everyone else's opinions.


Plenty of summit-goers like my opinions just fine, thank you. More to the point it's only decorum to actually discuss the topic at hand and, I don't know... stay on topic?

I know you people's minds wander easily and require constant encouragement to stay focused, so a little reminder won't hurt.

I'm sure those scattered and lonely neurons are working overtime now though, so back to it!



Sabik now, Sabik forever
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#49 - 2011-12-14 16:20:55 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
however I do not agree with the "logical" conclusions you draw from that.


That is because, being a creature of religion, you are somewhat deficient in the logic department.




What an open minded, logical way to simultaneously offend and insult everyone who maintains some spiritual beliefs.

Ignorance knows no racial boundary, it seems.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2011-12-14 16:29:39 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
What an open minded, logical way to simultaneously offend and insult everyone who maintains some spiritual beliefs.


I'm sorry for calling it how it is.

If it's any consolation, I do appreciate the difference between religion and spirituality that is generally beneficial for a culture (i.e. Minmatar and Caldari animism, the Ida, Achuran celestial meditation, etc.) and religion and spirituality that's demonstrably detrimental (i.e. basically every permutation of religion that's ever come out of the Amarr Empire). The thing is, they're still illogical belief systems, whether they're beneficial or not.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#51 - 2011-12-14 16:32:16 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
however I do not agree with the "logical" conclusions you draw from that.


That is because, being a creature of religion, you are somewhat deficient in the logic department.




What an open minded, logical way to simultaneously offend and insult everyone who maintains some spiritual beliefs.

Ignorance knows no racial boundary, it seems.


... I really hope you didn't expect anything different, Ava.

I mean, really. Andreus, inoffensive and civil towards other people on the IGS? That'll be the day...

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-12-14 16:35:23 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I mean, really. Andreus, inoffensive and civil towards other people on the IGS? That'll be the day...


Shows how little you know.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#53 - 2011-12-14 17:13:11 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I mean, really. Andreus, inoffensive and civil towards other people on the IGS? That'll be the day...


Shows how little you know.


Are you joking or do you just not get it?
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2011-12-14 18:18:09 UTC
If you sow thorns, you will not reap roses.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2011-12-14 18:23:52 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:

  • The formation of The Minmatar Republic, the very existence of it, even the honest idea of it is an affront to the paradigm of Amarr expansion. The Republic is getting bigger, better established, more lawful and is prospering well despite the interference of the Empire..

    • Where you say 'despite' I would say 'because of'
    Anabella Rella
    Gradient
    Electus Matari
    #56 - 2011-12-14 18:25:18 UTC
    Silas Vitalia wrote:

    Plenty of summit-goers like my opinions just fine, thank you. More to the point it's only decorum to actually discuss the topic at hand and, I don't know... stay on topic?


    As if you haven't derailed plenty of threads in your time. Pot, meet kettle.


    Silas Vitalia wrote:

    I know you people's minds wander easily and require constant encouragement to stay focused, so a little reminder won't hurt.

    I'm sure those scattered and lonely neurons are working overtime now though, so back to it!


    Is that all you've got, slaver hag? Come on now, I've had better insults tossed my way by the likes of totally uneducated homeless wretches begging for handouts on low sec stations. Try again. I bet your last two still functioning neurons can manage to fire a couple times to come up with something better. Try really hard! I bet you can come up with something mildly amusing...



    When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
    Astrid Stjerna
    Sebiestor Tribe
    #57 - 2011-12-14 18:35:14 UTC
    Merdaneth wrote:

    Where you say 'despite' I would say 'because of'


    Both terms apply.

    'Because of' the Empire's constant interference in our lives, we've steadily become more and more determined to push you out of our space. 'Despite' the Empire's interference, the Republic continues to grow, day by day, and we continue to fight the tyranny that you call 'salvation'.

    I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
    Nick Bete
    Highsec Haulers Inc.
    #58 - 2011-12-14 18:56:39 UTC
    Lyn Farel wrote:
    If you sow thorns, you will not reap roses.



    How in the world do you find enough hours in the day to do your capsuleer duties and be the moral compass of all humanity Captain Farel? I tip my hat to you for taking on such a thankless job!

    *smirks as he disconnects from the channel*
    Uraniae Fehrnah
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #59 - 2011-12-15 04:27:19 UTC
    Silas Vitalia wrote:
    I don't believe this thread started as a theological debate? Was quite a bit more fun picking apart your little list than hearing everyone's terrible opinions on theology.




    Lady Vitalia, you are quite right, the thread did not start as a theological debate. However, given the fact that Aphoxema G, the person who started the thread, hasn't requested for it stop I see no reason to not engage in civil discussion that is indeed only indirectly linked to the original topic of discussion. Should Aphoxema ask, I'll gladly keep myself from attempting to speak for the Faithful. Should you happen to stumble upon some sort of insight and wish to actually put some effort into explaining just how the opinions expressed are so horrible, I'll gladly listen.

    However if the most you attempt, or perhaps the most you can manage, is crude insults then I think it might be more satisfying for everyone involved if you simply head to a pleasure hub and purchase the services of a young man or woman solely so you can lob uninspired offenses at them. From the sounds of other peoples' responses they would be happy to know you at least got some practice.
    Silas Vitalia
    Doomheim
    #60 - 2011-12-15 05:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Silas Vitalia
    I wasn't referring to you Uraniae but since you seem to have a guilty conscience..

    Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:


    Should Aphoxema ask, I'll gladly keep myself from attempting to speak for the Faithful.


    So she asks and you obey. Have some self respect.

    Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:

    Should you happen to stumble upon some sort of insight and wish to actually put some effort into explaining just how the opinions expressed are so horrible, I'll gladly listen.


    No.

    Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:

    However if the most you attempt, or perhaps the most you can manage, is crude insults then I think it might be more satisfying for everyone involved if you simply [Crude Insult]



    You aren't very good at this sort of thing. You do seem to have some interest in theology and polite conversation however; perhaps your energy will be better spent in those arenas.

    Sabik now, Sabik forever