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Advice on avoiding the Suicide gank

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Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#281 - 2014-11-04 22:12:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Lucas Kell wrote:
Wrong. What they stated is that of new players, 10% move to player interactive content, 40% move to missioning and mining and 50% leave. Of the 40% he states that "many" leave which is open to interpretation.

The most important part of this though is that the 40% is clearly stated as people who play solo, missioning or mining and don;t trade much, which mean the industry core of the playerbase is in the 10%. See people like yourself think that 10% is "The PvP group" but it's not, it's simply the players who interact with others, be that in PvP or through trade, industry, incursions etc.

So until the day that CCP turn around and remove the enormous variety of "non-pew" activities from the game, it's going to remain a fact that there's a whole variety of valid playstyles, so pushing ganking to be the primary path for newbies is unlikely to become a reality.


Which is why they need to make mining and missioning interactive content. New player experience should directly push players to work with each other rather than show them what they can do simply on their own.

There's the issue of "not showing favor towards certain corporations". Like how CCP couldn't say "you have to join RvB when you start playing the game". That wouldn't be quite that fair. BUT, forming fleets is something else. If the new player experience could bring new people together in fleets (like missions that require you to be in a fleet with another person in an NPC corp and have content that fosters interaction between multiple players), then the chance players will continue to work together and enjoy the game is much higher.

There's also the idea that "players should actively seek interaction if they want it". But no, that's not how it should be. Most new players don't know that working together and creating content is a hell of a lot more fun than doing everything on your own. That's why shoving them in the right direction briefly at the start can really help.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#282 - 2014-11-04 22:55:23 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:


This is tough, how many times do i need to says its a lot easier today to not feel the consequence. gank someone in high sec 5 years ago and you're out in null sec ratting for 5 days to make the isk back, now you run incursions, run a few level 5's in a carrier that you can also afford. If anything Gankers are just as guilty at being lazy. It's nothing to do with smart game play.


It is also a lot easier to thwart a gank. The trouble is, hi sec is becoming to safe. This means it leads player into a false sense of security, and become lazy. They Bot / AFK, thus unable to avoid any potential gank.

I find it extremely difficult to summon up any sympathy for those that are ganked. It only means that they were playing sub par at the time. you would not play like that in null/ WH space, why should HS be any different.

I have a policy I adhere to. If you cannot make the time to play an MMO. You should not be playing it. I have just come back from 6 weeks of not be able to play for more than 20-30 minutes at a time. Even though I have been at home, with the computer, I have not once considered Botting or AFK mining. I could not play, so why should I be rewarded for not playing?. I have lost approximately 6-8 Billion, but rather that than to "Cheat" my way through eve.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#283 - 2014-11-04 23:51:41 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
The game needs to be balanced to allow variety. That's the key point.


Says the guy who has been arguing for what? four months now? to take variety away from highsec.

Less PvP possibilities = less variety.

So yeah, I don't really believe you. You're double talking pretty damned badly.
Roll

See my comment earlier about how when someone makes any suggestion about balancing highsec, how people like you leap in screeching "YOU'RE TAKING AWAY ALL THE PVP!". Seriously mate, learn to read. I don't want the pure and unwavering intent of this game to be pew pew, since I think there's a whole bunch of other playstyles just as valid as that. You can't take that, you want just PvP and nothing else to have any focus. Well tough luck. This is EVE. HTFU.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#284 - 2014-11-04 23:54:23 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Wrong. What they stated is that of new players, 10% move to player interactive content, 40% move to missioning and mining and 50% leave. Of the 40% he states that "many" leave which is open to interpretation.

The most important part of this though is that the 40% is clearly stated as people who play solo, missioning or mining and don;t trade much, which mean the industry core of the playerbase is in the 10%. See people like yourself think that 10% is "The PvP group" but it's not, it's simply the players who interact with others, be that in PvP or through trade, industry, incursions etc.

So until the day that CCP turn around and remove the enormous variety of "non-pew" activities from the game, it's going to remain a fact that there's a whole variety of valid playstyles, so pushing ganking to be the primary path for newbies is unlikely to become a reality.


Which is why they need to make mining and missioning interactive content. New player experience should directly push players to work with each other rather than show them what they can do simply on their own.

There's the issue of "not showing favor towards certain corporations". Like how CCP couldn't say "you have to join RvB when you start playing the game". That wouldn't be quite that fair. BUT, forming fleets is something else. If the new player experience could bring new people together in fleets (like missions that require you to be in a fleet with another person in an NPC corp and have content that fosters interaction between multiple players), then the chance players will continue to work together and enjoy the game is much higher.

There's also the idea that "players should actively seek interaction if they want it". But no, that's not how it should be. Most new players don't know that working together and creating content is a hell of a lot more fun than doing everything on your own. That's why shoving them in the right direction briefly at the start can really help.
Absolutely. Making the more solo content require more player interaction is something I hope CCP push. Interaction however does not solely mean shooting each other, which some people don't seem to be able to comprehend.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2014-11-05 00:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Lucas Kell wrote:
:words:


Now that I am off the tablet you never disavowed your assertion that code is running an elaborate scheme to drive up the ore prices so their condoned botting can fetch more isk for the ore it receives.

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Jack dannels
State War Academy
Caldari State
#286 - 2014-11-05 00:09:21 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:


This is tough, how many times do i need to says its a lot easier today to not feel the consequence. gank someone in high sec 5 years ago and you're out in null sec ratting for 5 days to make the isk back, now you run incursions, run a few level 5's in a carrier that you can also afford. If anything Gankers are just as guilty at being lazy. It's nothing to do with smart game play.


It is also a lot easier to thwart a gank. The trouble is, hi sec is becoming to safe. This means it leads player into a false sense of security, and become lazy. They Bot / AFK, thus unable to avoid any potential gank.

I find it extremely difficult to summon up any sympathy for those that are ganked. It only means that they were playing sub par at the time. you would not play like that in null/ WH space, why should HS be any different.

I have a policy I adhere to. If you cannot make the time to play an MMO. You should not be playing it. I have just come back from 6 weeks of not be able to play for more than 20-30 minutes at a time. Even though I have been at home, with the computer, I have not once considered Botting or AFK mining. I could not play, so why should I be rewarded for not playing?. I have lost approximately 6-8 Billion, but rather that than to "Cheat" my way through eve.


haha becoming to safe that's a joke empire has more lost ships per day then all of low sec and nullie combined
safe space is 0.0
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#287 - 2014-11-05 00:15:08 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I don't want the pure and unwavering intent of this game to be pew pew, since I think there's a whole bunch of other playstyles just as valid as that.


They're not "just as valid", since it's been pretty clearly established already that they hurt retention.


Quote:

You can't take that, you want just PvP and nothing else to have any focus.


No, I'd just rather that people like you stop asking to have my playstyle chopped away a piece at a time for the last eleven years.

You people talk about coexistence and "balance" while openly advocating for the deletion of entire playstyles. Yes, I am hostile to this, to any semblance of this, because I recognize "one more nerf" for what it is.

Trammel.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#288 - 2014-11-05 00:28:59 UTC
Jack dannels wrote:


haha becoming to safe that's a joke empire has more lost ships per day then all of low sec and nullie combined
safe space is 0.0


That is because the players have made it safe for themselves using current mechanics. Why don't you do the same?
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#289 - 2014-11-05 00:37:07 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
The game needs to be balanced to allow variety. That's the key point.


Says the guy who has been arguing for what? four months now? to take variety away from highsec.

Less PvP possibilities = less variety.

So yeah, I don't really believe you. You're double talking pretty damned badly.
Roll

See my comment earlier about how when someone makes any suggestion about balancing highsec, how people like you leap in screeching "YOU'RE TAKING AWAY ALL THE PVP!". Seriously mate, learn to read. I don't want the pure and unwavering intent of this game to be pew pew, since I think there's a whole bunch of other playstyles just as valid as that. You can't take that, you want just PvP and nothing else to have any focus. Well tough luck. This is EVE. HTFU.


There is only one playstyle according to Kaarous. Awoxxing with no consequence. He's threatened to quite if CCP dare to mess with it as that's all he does, according to him. I'll look for the link if he didn't edit it out yet.

Mr Epeen Cool
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#290 - 2014-11-05 00:42:05 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:

There is only one playstyle according to Kaarous. Awoxxing with no consequence. He's threatened to quite if CCP dare to mess with it as that's all he does, according to him. I'll look for the link if he didn't edit it out yet.


At the time, I could think of little else to do if such a thing were carried out. It's a large part of my gameplay, as I've been a solo player for a while, with irl mandating time limitations as well.

I have since found a raison detre for continuance, having joined Devils. I'll still have to unsub two accounts, since that's about all I use them for at present.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#291 - 2014-11-05 07:47:19 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
:words:
Now that I am off the tablet you never disavowed your assertion that code is running an elaborate scheme to drive up the ore prices so their condoned botting can fetch more isk for the ore it receives.
Mate, I've explained it several times over. I didn't assert anything, I suggested that was one possible reason alongside incompetence as another. Give it a rest. I'm not going to repeat it for a 50th time just because you can't get it into your head and want to continually misrepresent my words..

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#292 - 2014-11-05 07:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I don't want the pure and unwavering intent of this game to be pew pew, since I think there's a whole bunch of other playstyles just as valid as that.
They're not "just as valid", since it's been pretty clearly established already that they hurt retention.
Rubbish. Complete rubbish. Now you really are talking out of your ass.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
No, I'd just rather that people like you stop asking to have my playstyle chopped away a piece at a time for the last eleven years.

You people talk about coexistence and "balance" while openly advocating for the deletion of entire playstyles. Yes, I am hostile to this, to any semblance of this, because I recognize "one more nerf" for what it is.

Trammel.
Except I'm not talking about deletions of playstyles. I'm talking about balancing playstyles, which as I've explained, thick people seem to see as "OMG THEY'RE REMOVING PVP". Simple solution, stop being so thick.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
At the time, I could think of little else to do if such a thing were carried out. It's a large part of my gameplay, as I've been a solo player for a while, with irl mandating time limitations as well.

I have since found a raison detre for continuance, having joined Devils. I'll still have to unsub two accounts, since that's about all I use them for at present.
That's a shame... can't you unsub the rest anyway?

Ah well, perhaps when wardecs get looked at.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#293 - 2014-11-05 11:21:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rubbish. Complete rubbish. Now you really are talking out of your ass.


Not really. See, CCP has already established that the people who "just level their Raven and then quit", are quitting. That presents two possibilities.

Either it is the activity they are being shunted to (that being PvE combat) that is causing them to quit, in which case an alternate activity must be presented to them to increase their retention rate.

Or it's that such people themselves are fundamentally incompatible with EVE Online, and would inevitably wind up quitting anyway. In which case they merit exactly zero additional consideration.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#294 - 2014-11-05 12:58:03 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Not really. See, CCP has already established that the people who "just level their Raven and then quit", are quitting.
This is rubbish to begin with. They stated that many of them do, but considering 40% of players who stay longer than a month go on to "level their raven", while only 10% go on to player interaction, over half of them can quit and still there would be more staying to level their raven than interact.

Also you're talking about a single piece of PVE. Industry, trading, incursions, even null PvE, these aren't included in the "leveling your raven" crowd.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
That presents two possibilities.

Either it is the activity they are being shunted to (that being PvE combat) that is causing them to quit, in which case an alternate activity must be presented to them to increase their retention rate.
And that activity does not need to involve shooting other people. There's been a strong desire for more group based PvE for example.

The long and short of it mate is that EVE is a sandbox, it's not all about the one part of the game you like. If you can't handle that CCP are going to look at and support playstyles that don't directly involve PvP then quit.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#295 - 2014-11-05 13:11:00 UTC
Funny thing is that if whole ganking "community" would quit today it wouldn't even make any difference. And I mean only those who are purely playing for ganks, not those who happen to have an alt for it in between waiting for fleet to assembly or indy stuff being ready.

Invalid signature format
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#296 - 2014-11-05 17:09:04 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Funny thing is that if whole ganking "community" would quit today it wouldn't even make any difference. And I mean only those who are purely playing for ganks, not those who happen to have an alt for it in between waiting for fleet to assembly or indy stuff being ready.


Exactly - the career gankers are a fraction of Eve, and contribute very little to the game. The vast majority of the people living in highsec are looking for a PvE experience - when they want to PvP they go to wh/low/null. The whole "content creation" meme is a farce, sure you create some content for a few gankers, but you annoy a far larger number of victims.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#297 - 2014-11-05 17:26:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Veers Belvar wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Funny thing is that if whole ganking "community" would quit today it wouldn't even make any difference. And I mean only those who are purely playing for ganks, not those who happen to have an alt for it in between waiting for fleet to assembly or indy stuff being ready.


Exactly - the career gankers are a fraction of Eve, and contribute very little to the game. The vast majority of the people living in highsec are looking for a PvE experience - when they want to PvP they go to wh/low/null EVE ONLINE.


Fixed.

EVE (unlike most games, most fo which are crap) doesn't care about what you want, it cares about what you can enforce for yourself. Just like real life.

The whole "go somewhere else in game if you want to play a certain way" has been the cry of selfish EVE players since new eden began, and that (woefully incorrect) attitude is part oft he reason gankers exist. Notice who they don't screw with those of us who understand this game, but rather they go after those who think the game should cater to them.

"Gankers" and scammers and awoxxers and corp thieves etc do a service to the game in that they remind people who would get too comfortable that this game isn't about comfort and that "hey, you're playing EVE and thus always subject to danger while undocked". Without them, the game would be the same kind of stale themepark tripe most MMOs are. Without them, people like me would have no one to avoid and outsmart.



Quote:

The whole "content creation" meme is a farce, sure you create some content for a few gankers, but you annoy a far larger number of victims.


It creates content for real PVE players (ie those of us who aren't like Veers). PVE in EVE pretty much stinks, so it's good that there are other people around t compete with and to maneuver against.

Also, if a person is pitiful enough to be a 'victim' in a video game, they should stop playing video games and work on bettering themselves.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#298 - 2014-11-05 18:04:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
"Gankers" and scammers and awoxxers and corp thieves etc do a service to the game in that they remind people who would get too comfortable that this game isn't about comfort and that "hey, you're playing EVE and thus always subject to danger while undocked". Without them, the game would be the same kind of stale themepark tripe most MMOs are. Without them, people like me would have no one to avoid and outsmart.
Well no, it's nothing to do with getting comfortable, it's education. Players gank and scam uneducated players. People rarely get hit by the same scam twice. Ganking is just an easy way for some PvPers to get PvP without having to risk actually moving to somewhere that PvP is more prevalent or fight people that will fight back. Gankers are as risk averse as carebears.

Jenn aSide wrote:
It creates content for real PVE players (ie those of us who aren't like Veers). PVE in EVE pretty much stinks, so it's good that there are other people around t compete with and to maneuver against.
Yes, PvE stinks and needs to be looked at for that exact reason. Gankers aren't providing content. I've never done PvE and thought "I'm so glad an alt in a disposable ship flew past and blew up that random noob! The entertainment is divine!". honestly, miners smack talking with each other about the ore they are mining is FAR FAR FAR more entertaining.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#299 - 2014-11-05 18:19:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


Fixed.

EVE (unlike most games, most fo which are crap) doesn't care about what you want, it cares about what you can enforce for yourself. Just like real life.

The whole "go somewhere else in game if you want to play a certain way" has been the cry of selfish EVE players since new eden began, and that (woefully incorrect) attitude is part oft he reason gankers exist. Notice who they don't screw with those of us who understand this game, but rather they go after those who think the game should cater to them.

"Gankers" and scammers and awoxxers and corp thieves etc do a service to the game in that they remind people who would get too comfortable that this game isn't about comfort and that "hey, you're playing EVE and thus always subject to danger while undocked". Without them, the game would be the same kind of stale themepark tripe most MMOs are. Without them, people like me would have no one to avoid and outsmart.



It creates content for real PVE players (ie those of us who aren't like Veers). PVE in EVE pretty much stinks, so it's good that there are other people around t compete with and to maneuver against.

Also, if a person is pitiful enough to be a 'victim' in a video game, they should stop playing video games and work on bettering themselves.



Not sure what you are talking about. Casual PvE highsec players are a significant portion of the playerbase, as opposed to highsec gankers/wardeccers/awoxxers. The disparity in numbers is massive. Personally I am fine with the concept of suicide ganking in highsec, I just think that it should be used as a scalpel and not an ax. People who make bad decisions, like hauling too much cargo, or over-blinging, should face appropriate consequences. What I oppose is completely senseless violence like shooting autopiloting shuttles and pods every 15 minutes for lolz, or the exact same gankers hitting freighters in the exact same system every 15 minutes. I think the game would be better with a more effective police force.

Personally my play is nearly unaffected by these folks, but they do restrict a lot of people to NPC corps, causing them to play solo, get bored, and quit the game. That is bad for Eve. There is no reason casual players should be afraid to join a player corporation. Maybe your PvE stinks, but I find incursions pretty fun - especially the group content and the PvP contests.

People are not at fault because others do everything they can to ruin their gaming experience. That doesn't make them a "victim." It just means they will go find some other game to play.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#300 - 2014-11-05 18:31:54 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Well no, it's nothing to do with getting comfortable, it's education. Players gank and scam uneducated players.


"Education" in a video game is the responsibility of the gamer (and maybe the gamer's friends). The 1st thing i did when my buddies invited me to play EVE with them was google EVE. It's no one else's fault but the gamer if they don't know what to expect.

The above is one of the disconnects between my side and the "think of the chidlren" types like you. My side understands that a sense ofpersonal responsibility is not just a valuable trait in an EVE player, it's a required trait.

Quote:

People rarely get hit by the same scam twice. Ganking is just an easy way for some PvPers to get PvP without having to risk actually moving to somewhere that PvP is more prevalent or fight people that will fight back. Gankers are as risk averse as carebears.


This quote is a display of prejudice. Gankers gank for lots of reasons, and all of the reason that are within the EULA are perfectly valid no matter what someone else thinks of them. That's freedom for you, no one has to check with you before they enjoy a video game the way they want to. That's why i don't worry about gankers, why they gank is none of my business, that they gank is the only thing that is relevant (to me, as someone who needs to avoid them).

What you say also smacks of that useless e-honor "only fight people who will fight back" nonsense. gankers are role playing pirates, and that's ok. As for the risk averson, there is nothing wrong with risk aversion, I'm risk averse every time I take precautions when exploring (no one wants to lose a ship).

Nothing wrong with risk aversion, everything is wrong with being risk averse AND so narrow-mindedly selfish that you want game developers to limit other people's game play freedom because you are risk averse.

I have survived EVE to this point on my wits, I don't need CCP to play the game for me (and though you deny it, this is what you are asking CCP to do for people by 'making ganking cost more").

[qoute]Yes, PvE stinks and needs to be looked at for that exact reason. Gankers aren't providing content.[/quote]

Yes they are. I am a pve player and I'm telling you that the people we have to avoid, fit to survive against and outsmart are indeed provide content.

Quote:

I've never done PvE and thought "I'm so glad an alt in a disposable ship flew past and blew up that random noob! The entertainment is divine!". honestly, miners smack talking with each other about the ore they are mining is FAR FAR FAR more entertaining.


You for got to add the words "TO ME" at the end. You are not the only person in EVE, others find things entertaining that you may not.