Intergalactic Summit

The Caldari State ceded Caldari Prime to the Federation at the end of the Caldari War of Independence centuries ago, as a part of the settlement that ended the war. Then a few years ago, the State decided it wanted it back and was done with diplomacy, and so invaded in YC110 and occupied the planet. Own up to that, be honest with that. It's not a defensive war, it's an aggressive one. When you are the aggressor you fight to a position of superiority and then demand surrender. You don't plead that the defender make peace with you when you are the one that began the war. The one who declares war is not the victim.

The moment you gather up your armed forces, violate treaties, declare war, and invade a sovereign territory's borders, you are no longer the defender. It doesn't matter whether or not the attack is justfied. That's not important. Every war that has ever been fought and ever will be fought has had justifications and rationalizations. But what you absolutely must be, is honest. Whatever the reason to invade, be it retaking former territory or claiming new ones, own up to it. If you wish to conquer, then own up to being a conquerer.

Otherwise, you just look weak.

this simple part of your statement is making other part irrelevant.

because you are insinuating that we didn't wanted caldari prime at the beginning of the state.

and truth is that it was not we not wanting it.

it was us not heving military force strongh enought to keep at bay Federation fleet that was previously formed with our own help.

thats the difference.

we didn't "gave planet back" to gallente.

We were forced to leave.

We'll just conveniently forget about the supercarrier crashing into the spacestation then.

Honestly though, why are you all having this conversation again? The outcome will be no different to the last thousand times. It's a breeding ground for resentment that, frankly, is unnecessary. There's enough to go around already.

Lieutenant, we always "wanted" our home back, and we were done with diplomacy after gallenteans started ramming our stations with supercarriers, after gallenteans on our ancestral home planet were attacking caldari peoples because of racial hatred, after they were destroying Caldari archaelogical and defacing religious sites and memorials; after gallente police was beating Caldari, who were protesting against racism.

Besides that, we didn't "OCCUPY" the planet, we have removed GALLENTE occupation from OUR planet.


Yet it wasn't the case, Tibus Heth has stopped the attack with liberation of Caldari Prime and signing of new treaty with gallenteans, we weren't eager for their worlds. But they used it as an excuse to demand war for our Black Rise, and then new disputed regions have been outlined, and the war has started in low security space.

Maybe I would sound controversial, but I am actually happy that the war has started there, as now I can do something important instead of flying aimlessly in the void of space, looking just for an honorable death in a fight.

Given that both Republic and Empire fleets are regularly spotted in their enemy's space, I'd say there's good cause to say the war never ended, but Kernher is actually quite right. There's no need to jostle for some moral high ground. There's no need to swathe yourself in a victim's shroud. The cause is justification enough.

I come for my people and failing that... I'll just have to settle for your people.

Okay, so, let's talk legalities. On the one hand you have some dubious legal document signed under duress. On the other hand you have Caldari Prime's seizure and occupation. The question is - does the occupation of Caldari Prime continue to constitute a Casus Belli and was the Federation aware of it?

Clearly the government of the State under Tibus Heth felt that it DID constitute a Casus Beli. On what grounds? The State still maintained "We will return" as it's unofficial motto - and the official motto of many of its branches of military service. Toasts were still drunk to that effect - every Caldari's first drink of Kresh liquor at coming of age was accompanied with the repetition of that oath. It is no exaggeration to say that every planetary governor's office, every corporate headquarters, every creche and every shrine contained a memorial to Home and an exhortation to reclaim it.

Was the Federation aware of it? Given the sheer resources bent towards spying on the State, I find it impossible to believe they didn't. The sentiment was highly public and obvious. Moreover, the action taken against Malkalen was fresh and an outrage. Despite the responsibility for it resting with Noir, we must remember that Noir was an Admiral in the Federal Navy on assignment for the Federal Navy, he was accompanied by Federal Navy ships that participated in a fleet action against the defending Navy fleet and his final words were a torrent of hatred against the Caldari people. Did the Federation believe there would be no consequences? I remain convinced that the only things that stayed secret were the timing and the means.

The State's contention is not that it was the 'defender' it is simply that it had a valid casus belli to justify the action - and that we had exhausted all other means. Foiritan understood that. Foiritan began talks aimed at proper peace between our nations - but someone didn't want Foiritan to succeed, they were willing to commit mass-murder to make sure he didn't. Roden has no such ambitions.

So, in the interests of making things clear to Samira. We Caldari were the aggressors in YC110. We attacked the Federation to liberate our Home World. We held the blockade as long as we could and we fought like demons on the surface when Shiigeru fell. And we'd do it again, if we had to.

Thankfully the Federal Senate contains men of vision and humanity.

I for one am not sure if it was confirmed or not....

But i believe somewhere it was mentioned evidence exsisted to the fact that Admiral Noir was found dead in his home after the Malkalen debacle....and somewhere evidence suggested The Broker had surplanted Admiral Noir for access to the Nyx class carrier for the purpose of assasinating Ishukone's CEO at that present time.

The cooperation of President Roden, Mordu's Legion, and Ishukone forces more recently gave the ability for standarized Clone ground troops to be used without using stolen Sleeper Implants....and to level the playing field vs Amarr already owning the technolgy.
Tibus Heth and Ishukone did not get along...primarily for all intents and purposes Ishukone's CEO wanted a more peaceful attempt with acquiring Caldari Prime, disliked the evident power and control of Provist agents attempting to oversee everything like some Imperical agency(to which the state is not). There fore they were at odds, and many games were afoot in the background to attempt to destroy one another....in some cases the repated attempts to off the Family of the Ishukone CEO.

Tibus Heth made a singular and fatal mistake....he ordered the execution of someone that despite her having been deposed by him politically was still in favor and admired by much of the State Leadership. That alone sealed his fate in the fact he was using resources (public) to futher personal agendas and plans to force Ishukone under his thumb or destroy it.

As to the matter of Caldari Prime....the State in its infancy could not defend let alone fight agains the Fed Naval forces let alone combat troops. Even Jovian technolgy given to them thru Ishukone made the ability for the small forces able to fight on a more even keel with the Feds. Yet being outnumbered always at least 10 to 1 in ships, the very idea of leading an assault to liberate Caldari Prime was beyond ludricous.

Hence when most of the Fed Navy was deployed in YC110 Tibus Heth took the very first oppurtunity the State has ever had to do exactly what the common wishes and dreams of the State and its people had been since losing it.....he Liberated Caldari Prime by force of arms.

Gallentean diplomacy and what not....and their reluctance to let go of it is what sticks in the craw of every true State Citizen. Despite Ishukone being awarded basically control of adminastration of the largest populous centers really only gives us half the planet back. We require all of it. It is our planet afterall.

As to the Empyrean war....most the citizenry that lives there is tired of it. It is being fought there more as a proxy then letting things go into fullblown chaos in Highsec. Besides it is more of corporation control of colonies there than goverment whehter Gallente or Caldari.

As to the nullsec Caldari.....it is appreciated your support of the State and your fellow Caldari, however it would be more appreciative if you would come home completely and more permanently. Otherwise your a member of a Soverign Nationality that the State recogonizes (other empires do not) and though your views and support are appreciated....they are in the great scheme of things lacking substance and strength and are just merely words that do not in fact mean much at all since the day you have abandoned your citizenship when you left to serve that other foreign Sovereign.

Mademoiselle Cemenotar,

As most of what you're claiming has already been argued for and against in multiple different discussions by a plethora of different parties, I will simply address your last point.

The Federation is already working in tandem with the State to come to an agreement regarding the state of Caldari Prime that is acceptable to both peoples. There can be peace between our two peoples if we stop using the sins of the past to justify the sins of the future.

Perhaps you're right. On the other hand there are multiple instances in history where the unrealistic demands of the one side in the armistice have sparked future conflicts to right wrongs or simply to adjust an unbalanced deal.

When the Federation broke off negotiations after crashing a capital ship into what was, essentially, one of the capitals of the State, one could very plausibly contend that peaceful means of redressing the balance had been exhausted. And yes, Liam, I accept that such an action was very out of character for Noir, but I also contend that nobody outside of the Federation knows what his real orders were - and that such an action by an accredited peace envoy surely qualifies as an act of war.

That said, I also agree with Liam that the State and the Federation are putting their respective houses into order. We are progressing to resolve this issue peaceably. Since the Third Battle of Caldari Prime there have been no real breaches of territorial sovreignty.

Hm, I must be doing something right to be name-dropped after not having said a word regarding it. I will consider it a compliment, as I am sure that is how it was intended knowing the character of Commander Tuulinen.

Honestly, I agree that from the State's perspective, the actions of Admiral Noir could be a justification for war. It would be awfully hypocritical of me not to accept that premise and then argue the same premise when referring to the Federation's (albeit heavy-handed) response to Nouvelle Rouvenor many years ago, or even the Federation's tension and response regarding the Shiigeru.

Let us both pray that more reasonable minds prevail for long enough to finalize a lasting peace between us.