Player Features and Ideas Discussion

24km 90% webs and you DON'T see how that's broken?

Good God man.

24km webs should be like 30%.

That's like saying a Garmur pointing from 70km moving 9km/s is balanced.

Webs could probably stand to have falloff with the optimal starting fairly late and the falloff being rather sharp much like rail guns.

With most other forms of ewar having falloff the only ones that really couldn't function properly that way would be scrams and points due to the nature of their effects. Webs though could certainly be balanced through giving them a falloff which if it started late enough would still leave webs as one of the most powerful ewar in the game but punishing sloppy operators and allowing for lokis/rapier/huginn to get a falloff bonus for webs instead of a flat range increase that is kind of broken. No weapon system or ewar applies 100% of its effect out to its full range so why should webs be exempt? Again an exception for scrams and points as their function is predominantly for warpspace interdiction rather than subwarp interactions.

Reported for redundancy.

This is a fairly civil discussion and there are plenty of new ideas and people who have merit to voice their opinions, which is something this game needs. What it doesn't need is another self appointed member of the thought-police barging to show everyone how important he is.

We are at war with badposting. We have always been at war with badposting.

Going back on my original statement not to respond to this thread anymore. I would like to make the clarification that I did not say that there was anything unfair about webs; I did not say that webs were broken; I did not say that webs are a instant frigate killing platform item; I didn't not say that they were OP, nor did I say that there was anything wrong with the way webs effect gameplay.

Webbing, is a bad game mechanic. Considering the nature of frigates and piloting them it is a silly item that instead of encouraging a creative tactical fix the situation, or being tactical in its application, it is simply an item that is low cost that directly interferes with a particular ship classes ability to survive. It isn't about whether or not your battleship, cruiser, or battlecruiser, can hit the frigate, it isn't about whether you can catch an opponent or dictate range, and isn't about my killboards. It is about the fact that all that webbing is is an item that slows people down. It isn't interesting, it doesn't do anything, but slow people down, and that has the largest effect on frigates, obviously. Instead of relying on a one-size-fits-all fire and forget weapon to handle all of your small needs come up with something else that actually make sense, and doesn't reduce gameplay to a droll. High speed firefights are interesting and tactical, opponents and friends alike need to decide when they need to commit to finish the engagement or not. Fact of the matter is, whenever a web is brought to a situation, all of the variable possibilities of the situation come down to being either, a yes or a no. Their is little question of whether or not you can disengage when webbed or not, or if webbing makes a difference to the engagement, or not. Webs strip down the most prominent feature of an entire line of ships. Speed tanking should be a thing that doesn't cost you links, a halo, or slave set. It should be a thing that the ship class simply does. It is frustrating to see more inexperienced pilots of the class simply foregoing speed altogether in favor of defenses, and making said defenses as stout as possible, because it is simpler and more effective. The item may be necessary for a variety of things involving countering the ship type, that is understandable, and necessary; however, the method implemented for countering the type of defense is bland uninteresting, and instead of hindering the frigate ship class, it pigeon holes it into ships that can handle being webbed, and ships that can't. Other larger vessels still have a variety of options available to them for combat once being webbed; because they have considerable levels of ehp that allow for high margins of error. The frigate is left with the options, once webs are brought into the scenario, (especially when larger vessels are doing it) not to get webbed, and focus on staying far from web range, or entering it, getting as close as possible and seeing if you either still have enough speed to avoid damage or not. Considering the scope of the meticulous pressure that frigate pilots face: Low hp, Weapons that burn up quickly, propulsion that burns up quickly, heading and vectoring, active modules, managing heat, managing relatively low capacitor, and transversal, piloting frigates is a headache's worth of processing and decision making. Webbing is not this, nor does this contribute to making pvp more interesting.

There are alot of people who think that webbing is fine, and they are probably right. It does work just fine, but that doesn't mean that is not a bad game mechanic. That does not mean that their should not be focus on making it a better game mechanic. I am not here because my Vengeance got blown up a million times to whatever, I am here because whenever there is the potential for an interesting fight between to fleets of varying ship classes, frigates vs whatever, there is always something that the larger ships can do, that without a doubt, is an effective solution to the problem. Frigates are good at fighting frigates, frigates are also good at fighting nothing else. Every other ship class, has some method of which they can engage every other ship class; frigates can engage whatever doesn't have a web. Frigates that aren't webbed don't immediately destroy ships that aren't webbing them. Tracking disrupting a large vessel doesn't make killing go any faster when there is still a chance that it can one shot you off of the field. It is a weapon that works, but it is a weapon that works in a completely one-sided fashion, and in a very limiting way. I posted my killboards, because as you can see by my many vengeance losses, that I am aware of what I am talking about. It does not mean that I am bitter about the way that I play the game not working out, the fact that i can fly the same thing over and over again and kill anything at all is a miracle. My point to be made was that the entire ship class would open up in more possibilities in fittings and what could be done with them if webs were something that were manageable or at the least something that wasn't so flat. Every fit doesn't have to be either max speed or max tank, and frigates that had stats that were somewhere in between could be used for something that wasn't as flat as web themselves.

The disappointment in forums becomes obvious when someone obviously makes an attempt to be as neutral and reasonable as possible to all sides, and of course the troll brigade strolls up like, "u mad bro? Ur just a noob." Ironically if I didn't just post this title as, "Nerf Webs" and instead did it as something less sweeping and more thought provoking no one would read it, and it would get no where. Kudos to you capsuleers, who prove themselves to be only carebears and bittervets.

I think webs are fine as a game mechanic as they allow large powerful ships some defence against much smaller vessels. If you took away webs then the BS pilots would need (and demand) something else that defends against frigs at the cost of a slot, probably some kind of anti-frig secondary armament which would leave the frig in the same place (and pieces). I have argued for a secondary armament option at the expens of a high slot (multiple small guns in place of one of the big ones) to give BS better utility in solo/gang roams and can see some of you points. However I don't think webs are in a bad place right now as a frig can easily get under a BS guns even without prop mods. The web gives th BS a chance but even then it can still survive in very close range engagements.

Our most sacret propulsion mod is our mwd. Kiting would not be possible without it and in some longer fights, you really want to move around a lot.

The thing about sniping is that it became close to useless when the probe scanning mechanics were changed so that you can land on anyone at 0km if you wish.

If you search on youtube a little, you can see some older videos when two parties in battleships were sniping each other with railguns and tachyon beam lasers from very long ranges.

This is just no longer possible. The "magic" range you want to be at for sniping was reduced to 149km. Everything above 150km can be the end of such endeavour.

Back in the day of what was called "the nano age" all of the webs were 90% immobilizers and changes were made to reduce webs to the 60% effectiveness we have now.

The current linked Garmur is a reminder of the old nano-Taranis

I think that all of our ewar need a closer look at and CCP is hesitant to change our recon ships and blackops at this point because of it.

As one who participates in frigate pvp constantly...as stated by Azazel The Misanthrope... webs make for a horrible game mechanic. I laugh at my victims who don't fit webs in frigate pvp. If you don't fit a web, (and I always do because they are stupidly powerful) then you will lose. If you do not lose, you still cannot win, because I can just fly away from you at near blistering speeds. Using missiles on targets that aren't webbed (like faction rockets vs. an AB frig) is hilarious; the dps is cut in half, or more. 4 rocket launchers will volley you for around 70 damage....it's pathetic.

So if you use missiles, webs are the only choice you have to apply anything near the dps on paper. Bad game mechanic. If you use guns and don't carry a web to a web fight, you will be scram kited and die horribly. Bad game mechanic. If you are trying to chase down an MWD cruiser, and that cruiser has webs, you get webbed outside of scram range (because webs go farther), and you eat heavy blasters with null loaded, you evaporate. Bad game mechanic. You are in an AB cruiser and get tackled by say 2 frigates with webs, now that Tornado or Talos sitting 40km off is going to turn you into space dust, with zero tracking issues......

It's a bad ******* game mechanic. And unfortunately it is built into the game as literally the only thing to offensively dictate range control and with literally no way to counter it.

No, propulsion mods are NOT a counter to webs. And if you are in a kite cruiser and want to counter a frigate, it's called a medium neut. It works, and your MWD will be back on in mere seconds, making them chase you with very little transversal. They eat medium guns and nearly always die soon after.

Solutions:

1. Different sized webs whose effect are based on signature radius, (medium have resolution of 125, frigate is 40, roughly 1/3 effectiveness). They also need a mass component as small webs should honestly do nothing to a BC or larger and much less to a cruiser than a frigate.

2. Harsh stacking penalty; only one web on the target will have an effect ie. maximum speed reduction from webs is 60%. Unless you're in the Serpentis line, then it's 90% because reasons.

3. Webs have a falloff starting at 5km, falloff of 5km, maximum activation range is 14.9km. Obviously at falloff range of 14.9km the effect is minimal and increases just like weapon falloff as you approach. This would allow tackle frigates chasing that cruiser to not be incinerated once they get hit by the dual OH webs on the Vexor with null loaded. They keep more momentum / velocity until they are close to being under the guns.

4. Counter modules to webs, could be in any slot. If high slot, active module that consumes lots of cap and reduces web effectiveness on you (significantly). If mid slot, active EWAR module that you use on the targeted ship that is webbing you, turns it off or cuts effectiveness. If low slot, just takes fittings, reduces web effectiveness by say 25-50% but uses up a very valuable slot for a frigate.

Counters to webs aren't bad, because if dealing with a kiter the MWD is 80% of speed, scramming the target is all you really need. AB ships really don't go that fast, except for Sansha ships, those are crazy.

Webs suck. fights without them are much, much more interesting. Closer to actual dog fighting instead of sitting there hammering each other.

I like where your head's at kiddo... but personally thinking, if you were going to modify the webbing system, the power of the web should start as a fixed percentage based off of a certain mass limit with the web power decreasing in increments by the added increase in mass. ie. a frigate's web is more effective on smaller targets and loses effectiveness on larger masses like battleships. whereas a battleship (having more available power to add to the webbing affect) would not notice so much of a decrease...

in creating a calulation for this, I think any skill with the opposing pilot's agility would definitely play a part...

A target painter already affects sig radius...


On a side note... they should create a smart bomb that doesn't do any damage but instead 'pushes' X amount of mass, X amount of distance away from the center... (A smart 'bump') could make things interesting for a counter for mods that need to be so far away to be active...