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[Autocannons] A Balance Suggestion
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Yngvar ayShorn
Einheit X-6
#101 - 2014-11-04 14:52:56 UTC
I also think that projectiles need some love.

+1 for a slight buff of projectiles and/or Minmatar-Hulls to get in line.

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2014-11-04 15:31:07 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Sigras wrote:
That means at the kiting range of 18, the autocannon ship is still doing 51% of its damage while the blaster ship is down to 20.9% each having two damage mods, rupture vs thorax, at 18 km the rupture does roughly twice as much damage.



20% of 1000 is still 50% of 400. No autocannon boat can pull 1000 gun DPS and still have a viable fit. A shield Brutix can, a Mega can do it without breaking a sweat. Try and pull those numbers on a Cane or a Pest, you are already cutting them in half before you even get started. So at 18K, blaster boat still wins the DPS race.

I think I have to stop reading at this point, there is some serious dishonesty going on here.

A Brutix can break 1k dps with a shield fit if it uses Void, so let's all pretend that dps can actually be applied to a ship @ 18 km. The 1k dps also includes damage from the relatively large drone bay (for a non-drone bonused BC), you won't get there from pure gun damage without pimping the fit out a bit. I'll not even start on how you are challenging people to get a Hurricane to do 1k dps after cutting it's damage in half for being at 18 km while talking as if a Brutix with 1k dps will gleefully apply full damage instead of the expected ~0 dps at that same range.

A Megathron can break 1k dps? Sure and with ease, but it's a battleship. A Tempest with 800s T1 ammo and no damage mods of any kind nor drones does 650 dps, please don't quote us 400 dps like we won't notice. Completely dishonest comparison of cruiser dps vs. a battleship. Nowhere are you going to find comparable ship classes where one does 1k dps to the 400 dps of the other. Such a wild imbalance of power will not slip past anyone.

Someone previously established that a Vagabond does about 525 dps (with drones). Well a Vagabond with 220s and Barrage does 390 gun dps at optimal with three damage mods and will lose significantly less than half that dps to falloff by 18 km.

All that being said if ACs are to gain anything, falloff is the way to go but I'd want to see it be on the order of about 10% not 30%. A 30% increase to AC base falloff would drastically increase the power of hulls with a falloff bonus, which are the hulls that really make or break ACs anyway. Increasing the damage of ACs would only make them closer to blasters and homogenize the weapon systems, falloff gives them a meaningful advantage over blasters and reduces homogenization.



A megatron can deal 1500 DPs with MORE tank slots than a tempest aht does 1090 dps. SO yes.. there are huge inbalances.



Try to make the following. Fit a tempest with Full mandatory tackle and prop mod, same for mega, 5 tank slot (that is the STANDARD for a battleship) Now comapre the DPS of BOTH.


The difference is HUGE. Around 70% MORE dps for the mega

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#103 - 2014-11-04 15:36:34 UTC
it would be nice if they made the vaga into a mini sleipnir in terms of brawling capability not just range .. with the cynabal and even the other races being able too do the vagas current job better .. it would make since too align it more towards dps and tank instead..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Skir Skor
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#104 - 2014-11-04 16:13:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Skir Skor
Autocannon's on Frigs are fine. They have stuff they can kill and stuff that can kill them. A few more HP on the Slasher and a bit more speed on the Rifter would be nice but you can undock in them and find engagable targets. The Firetail is a great ship, you can kill a wide range of stuff in that boat.

The Dram's role used to be about range control but the DD gets a bonus to Web strength, Crucor a Web range bonus and the Succubus to bonus to AB so it's role has been watered down. It's still a good counter to the Garmur.

For my playstye the minnie AF's are pretty bad though. The Wolf only has two mids and the Jaguar get a lol-bonus to Optimal range. I don't like them, but do have a few fitted to tackle Omen's and such like.

Interceptors are fine.

I find no reason to fly a Stabber or Ruppie.

The Fleet issue cruisers are good shape as there is fittting space for duel props and two medium armour reppers, plus they are fast.

TBH I don't think a bonus to falloff will fix the situation. I'd maybe buff the Capacitor so active tanks work best on Minnie ships. Amarr have brick tanks, Gall have the strucure rigs now and Caldari have shield. I'd like Minnie to be about active reppers.

At the same time I'd also nerf the Gall cap on the Tristan, Ishtar and Domi so if you want a Neut ship then you would grab the rusty one.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2014-11-04 16:23:23 UTC
I've said it before and I'll say it again, arguing the merits of lasers vs. hybrids vs. projectiles is totally pointless as long as sentry drones and light missiles exist. LMs completely invalidate all other frigate weapons, drones completely invalidate every medium-sized weapon except for railguns, and railguns only have a niche because +100% hybrid optimal ships exist which lets them outrange the sentry drones.

There is absolutely no reason to fly any kind of turret boat when you could be flying an Ishtar.

The new HICs are essentially HACs with +1 fitting slot and five ship bonuses even when there aren't any capitals to tackle, and nobody is even taking a second look at them. Sure the Devoter is a better Zealot, but a Zealot just doesn't remotely stack up against an Ishtar with 50% more damage, no cap use, selectable damage, triple the tracking, and better range.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#106 - 2014-11-04 16:27:57 UTC
Skir Skor wrote:
Autocannon's on Frigs are fine. They have stuff they can kill and stuff that can kill them. A few more HP on the Slasher and a bit more speed on the Rifter would be nice but you can undock in them and find engagable targets. The Firetail is a great ship, you can kill a wide range of stuff in that boat.

The Dram's role used to be about range control but the DD gets a bonus to Web strength, Crucor a Web range bonus and the Succubus to bonus to AB so it's role has been watered down. It's still a good counter to the Garmur.

For my playstye the minnie AF's are pretty bad though. The Wolf only has two mids and the Jaguar get a lol-bonus to Optimal range. I don't like them, but do have a few fitted to tackle Omen's and such like.

Interceptors are fine.

I find no reason to fly a Stabber or Ruppie.

The Fleet issue cruisers are good shape as there is fittting space for duel props and two medium armour reppers, plus they are fast.

TBH I don't think a bonus to falloff will improve the situation. I'd maybe buff the Capacitor so active tanks work best on Minnie ships. Amarr have brick tanks, Gall have the strucure rigs now and Caldari have shield. I'd like Minnie to be about active reppers.

At the same time I'd also nerf the Gall cap on the Tristan, Ishtar and Domi so if you want a Neut ship then you would grab the rusty one.


A cap bonus does nothing to help autocannons. A falloff bonus will though.

Also jag optimal bonus is very useful, for artillery, which is damn near impossible to fit due to high fittings. Jag is a decent scram/kite with arty. Which brings up the point again... fix artillery fitting requirements. Mainly for smalls and medium, large is ok.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Thorr VonAsgard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2014-11-04 16:39:09 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
wow...If there is any weapons in the game that doesn't need a buff, it is projectile turrets in general.



Medium Projectile turrets would like to have a word with you.

Edit: Then again, nothing to be scared off, since they can't harm you anyways




Edit 2:

Interesting idea might be some experimental guns:

Medium guns that shoot Large Ammo, at reduced rate of fire and with a reduced damage modifier.

Or vice versa: Like Rapid Launchers, some kind of 'Gattling' system that shoots high amounts of smaller rounds at high rate of fire?


"LOL"

Try to put 60mm bullets in a 9mm gun and tell me what happends xD

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2014-11-04 17:49:56 UTC
Thorr VonAsgard wrote:
"LOL"

Try to put 60mm bullets in a 9mm gun and tell me what happends xD

I think he was talking more along the lines of a Desert Eagle. Then again, whether or not you have to mount a different kind of turret to shoot the larger rounds isn't all that important from a gameplay perspective.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

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Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#109 - 2014-11-05 18:34:54 UTC
Bumping it because I mean it.

-Badman
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#110 - 2014-11-12 12:27:57 UTC
CCP PLS, my vaga needs love...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2014-11-12 12:30:09 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Sigras wrote:
That means at the kiting range of 18, the autocannon ship is still doing 51% of its damage while the blaster ship is down to 20.9% each having two damage mods, rupture vs thorax, at 18 km the rupture does roughly twice as much damage.



20% of 1000 is still 50% of 400. No autocannon boat can pull 1000 gun DPS and still have a viable fit. A shield Brutix can, a Mega can do it without breaking a sweat. Try and pull those numbers on a Cane or a Pest, you are already cutting them in half before you even get started. So at 18K, blaster boat still wins the DPS race.

I think I have to stop reading at this point, there is some serious dishonesty going on here.

A Brutix can break 1k dps with a shield fit if it uses Void, so let's all pretend that dps can actually be applied to a ship @ 18 km. The 1k dps also includes damage from the relatively large drone bay (for a non-drone bonused BC), you won't get there from pure gun damage without pimping the fit out a bit. I'll not even start on how you are challenging people to get a Hurricane to do 1k dps after cutting it's damage in half for being at 18 km while talking as if a Brutix with 1k dps will gleefully apply full damage instead of the expected ~0 dps at that same range.

A Megathron can break 1k dps? Sure and with ease, but it's a battleship. A Tempest with 800s T1 ammo and no damage mods of any kind nor drones does 650 dps, please don't quote us 400 dps like we won't notice. Completely dishonest comparison of cruiser dps vs. a battleship. Nowhere are you going to find comparable ship classes where one does 1k dps to the 400 dps of the other. Such a wild imbalance of power will not slip past anyone.

Someone previously established that a Vagabond does about 525 dps (with drones). Well a Vagabond with 220s and Barrage does 390 gun dps at optimal with three damage mods and will lose significantly less than half that dps to falloff by 18 km.

All that being said if ACs are to gain anything, falloff is the way to go but I'd want to see it be on the order of about 10% not 30%. A 30% increase to AC base falloff would drastically increase the power of hulls with a falloff bonus, which are the hulls that really make or break ACs anyway. Increasing the damage of ACs would only make them closer to blasters and homogenize the weapon systems, falloff gives them a meaningful advantage over blasters and reduces homogenization.



A megatron can deal 1500 DPs with MORE tank slots than a tempest aht does 1090 dps. SO yes.. there are huge inbalances.



Try to make the following. Fit a tempest with Full mandatory tackle and prop mod, same for mega, 5 tank slot (that is the STANDARD for a battleship) Now comapre the DPS of BOTH.


The difference is HUGE. Around 70% MORE dps for the mega


Now look at the ranges.
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#112 - 2014-11-12 13:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
Here, we don't really care about BS, but about medium AC, which are in a worse state.

Actually my vaga / cyna has speed but no damage over 20km, while most of the ships in front of me can project way more damages than i do thanks to RLML, railgun and drones damage.

Where is the point to fly it over a Gila / VNI / Cerb / Ishtar ? Runaway faster when i get blobbed ? But what is the point to hunt if i'm only able to kill frigs before to get blobbed. I'm efting like a fool to get a real fit which can perform well, but it's almost impossible.

Actually, cynabals / Vagabond are good to gank like every other ships but fighting is a real pain, while i constantly need to care about ranges to apply my damages, i could just throw my drones and stay safe at 35km+ with more EHP.

We need you CCP !
Eridon Hermetz
Diplomatie Rapide
Wreckflix and chill
#113 - 2014-11-13 02:31:00 UTC
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
Here, we don't really care about BS, but about medium AC, which are in a worse state.

Actually my vaga / cyna has speed but no damage over 20km, while most of the ships in front of me can project way more damages than i do thanks to RLML, railgun and drones damage.

Where is the point to fly it over a Gila / VNI / Cerb / Ishtar ? Runaway faster when i get blobbed ? But what is the point to hunt if i'm only able to kill frigs before to get blobbed. I'm efting like a fool to get a real fit which can perform well, but it's almost impossible.

Actually, cynabals / Vagabond are good to gank like every other ships but fighting is a real pain, while i constantly need to care about ranges to apply my damages, i could just throw my drones and stay safe at 35km+ with more EHP.

We need you CCP !


+1 !!

Medium AC and minnie ship need really some love
Yngvar ayShorn
Einheit X-6
#114 - 2014-11-13 06:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Yngvar ayShorn
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
Here, we don't really care about BS, but about medium AC, which are in a worse state.

Actually my vaga / cyna has speed but no damage over 20km, while most of the ships in front of me can project way more damages than i do thanks to RLML, railgun and drones damage.

Where is the point to fly it over a Gila / VNI / Cerb / Ishtar ? Runaway faster when i get blobbed ? But what is the point to hunt if i'm only able to kill frigs before to get blobbed. I'm efting like a fool to get a real fit which can perform well, but it's almost impossible.

Actually, cynabals / Vagabond are good to gank like every other ships but fighting is a real pain, while i constantly need to care about ranges to apply my damages, i could just throw my drones and stay safe at 35km+ with more EHP.

We need you CCP !



+1

Same here. Totaly agree!

Please take a look at Projectiles (AC and Arty) + Minmatar-Hulls!
Thank you, CCP!

+250.000 Skillpunkte für neue Accounts mit meinem Link!  -->> Klick mich <<-- -- Minmatar FactionWar --
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
#115 - 2014-11-13 06:50:02 UTC
I can agree on the DPS not being as competitive with blasters, but OP's suggestion to extend the FO just seems like butthurt generated from kiters.

learn to EVE and stop complaining.

Everything's a game if you make it one - Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci

CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase - Frostys Virpio
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
#116 - 2014-11-13 06:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
CCP PLS, my vaga needs love...

speaking on-topic, the vagabond is a fine example of a case where a substantial falloff extention would very much be in order. when looking at it in comparison to, say, a cerberus, you see under 600 DPS at 21KM versus the Cerb's 700 at almost 40KM.

were it not for this major disadvantage I would have never looked away from my beloved Vagabond.

Everything's a game if you make it one - Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci

CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase - Frostys Virpio
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#117 - 2014-11-13 08:04:29 UTC
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame wrote:
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
CCP PLS, my vaga needs love...

speaking on-topic, the vagabond is a fine example of a case where a substantial falloff extention would very much be in order. when looking at it in comparison to, say, a cerberus, you see under 600 DPS at 21KM versus the Cerb's 700 at almost 40KM.

were it not for this major disadvantage I would have never looked away from my beloved Vagabond.


Now compare the speeds of these two ships.

DPS and range isnt everything.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2014-11-13 08:56:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame wrote:
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
CCP PLS, my vaga needs love...

speaking on-topic, the vagabond is a fine example of a case where a substantial falloff extention would very much be in order. when looking at it in comparison to, say, a cerberus, you see under 600 DPS at 21KM versus the Cerb's 700 at almost 40KM.

were it not for this major disadvantage I would have never looked away from my beloved Vagabond.


Now compare the speeds of these two ships.

DPS and range isnt everything.



Funny because on our KITING fleets we use cerberuses over vagabonds, because they are FAR SUPERIOR on that role.

Speed in fact works very badly with AC because you have tracking AND falloffproblems (depending on the different moments of the maneuvers). WHiel cerberus hit MUCH harder.

The MAX speed of the vagabond is nearly irrelevant, sicne it is useful only when you are running away, in other words when you lost. I prefer ships that make OTHERS run away. That is the main reason almost all kiting small scale combat made in game is with caldari ships.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2014-11-13 09:01:16 UTC
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame wrote:
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
CCP PLS, my vaga needs love...

speaking on-topic, the vagabond is a fine example of a case where a substantial falloff extention would very much be in order. when looking at it in comparison to, say, a cerberus, you see under 600 DPS at 21KM versus the Cerb's 700 at almost 40KM.

were it not for this major disadvantage I would have never looked away from my beloved Vagabond.



Vaga is one of the ships that more falloff is not much needed. THe ships sufferign a lot are the ones without ANY falloff bonus.

Examples: HURRICANE (now is a Complete pile of crap, and anyone thinking on the contrary is delusional, brutix does more DPS at ANY reasonable range). Tempest ( same situation when comapred to the mega. At least the temepst have 2 neuts htat make it very dangerous to small support). Rupture ( the ship went from best t1 cruiser to VANISHING from space. THroax is same speed 9when both shield or both armor tanked), roughly same ehp and does more dps at any reasonable range).

In fact the problematic minmatar line is EXACLTY the shps with 2 damage bonuses, that yet do less damage than their peers of other races while not being able to field falloff bonuses)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2014-11-13 09:09:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Sigras wrote:
That means at the kiting range of 18, the autocannon ship is still doing 51% of its damage while the blaster ship is down to 20.9% each having two damage mods, rupture vs thorax, at 18 km the rupture does roughly twice as much damage.



20% of 1000 is still 50% of 400. No autocannon boat can pull 1000 gun DPS and still have a viable fit. A shield Brutix can, a Mega can do it without breaking a sweat. Try and pull those numbers on a Cane or a Pest, you are already cutting them in half before you even get started. So at 18K, blaster boat still wins the DPS race.

I think I have to stop reading at this point, there is some serious dishonesty going on here.

A Brutix can break 1k dps with a shield fit if it uses Void, so let's all pretend that dps can actually be applied to a ship @ 18 km. The 1k dps also includes damage from the relatively large drone bay (for a non-drone bonused BC), you won't get there from pure gun damage without pimping the fit out a bit. I'll not even start on how you are challenging people to get a Hurricane to do 1k dps after cutting it's damage in half for being at 18 km while talking as if a Brutix with 1k dps will gleefully apply full damage instead of the expected ~0 dps at that same range.

A Megathron can break 1k dps? Sure and with ease, but it's a battleship. A Tempest with 800s T1 ammo and no damage mods of any kind nor drones does 650 dps, please don't quote us 400 dps like we won't notice. Completely dishonest comparison of cruiser dps vs. a battleship. Nowhere are you going to find comparable ship classes where one does 1k dps to the 400 dps of the other. Such a wild imbalance of power will not slip past anyone.

Someone previously established that a Vagabond does about 525 dps (with drones). Well a Vagabond with 220s and Barrage does 390 gun dps at optimal with three damage mods and will lose significantly less than half that dps to falloff by 18 km.

All that being said if ACs are to gain anything, falloff is the way to go but I'd want to see it be on the order of about 10% not 30%. A 30% increase to AC base falloff would drastically increase the power of hulls with a falloff bonus, which are the hulls that really make or break ACs anyway. Increasing the damage of ACs would only make them closer to blasters and homogenize the weapon systems, falloff gives them a meaningful advantage over blasters and reduces homogenization.



A megatron can deal 1500 DPs with MORE tank slots than a tempest aht does 1090 dps. SO yes.. there are huge inbalances.



Try to make the following. Fit a tempest with Full mandatory tackle and prop mod, same for mega, 5 tank slot (that is the STANDARD for a battleship) Now comapre the DPS of BOTH.


The difference is HUGE. Around 70% MORE dps for the mega


Now look at the ranges.



Again.. Look it again yourself! With NULL Mega has MORE EFFECTIVE range! Being able to do that last 20% of base dps at logner range than the blaster ships is IRRELEVANT!

Any range over 70% of your max dps is almost irrelevant!

Make the damm graphs. The megatron outdps the tempest almost up to long point range! Make an armor tempest and an armor mega and put the nubmers on. The tempest is UTTERLY behind on any relevant engagement range. At the point AC start to outdps blasters, the best weapons is already RAILS.

So NO! The tempest do not have range advantage.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"