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Advice on avoiding the Suicide gank

First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#141 - 2014-11-03 22:35:32 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:

You mean the same webby alts that are also being targetted and alpha-ed before it can get webs on a freighter?


Well, considering how that was either a lie or an enormous mismanagement of his own ships...

Yep.


Jesus; not once have you acknowledged that plenty of people pilot, to your standard, the correct way and are being caught as easily as those that stick it on AP with carog expanders..


That's because it's not true. It is not "plenty" of people.

By far, the vast, vast majority of those who die while hauling or mining are people who are neglecting their own self defense.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

ll Kuray ll
Alpha Republic - Transcenders of Space and Time
Solyaris Chtonium
#142 - 2014-11-03 22:41:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:

You mean the same webby alts that are also being targetted and alpha-ed before it can get webs on a freighter?


Well, considering how that was either a lie or an enormous mismanagement of his own ships...

Yep.


Jesus; not once have you acknowledged that plenty of people pilot, to your standard, the correct way and are being caught as easily as those that stick it on AP with carog expanders..


That's because it's not true. It is not "plenty" of people.

By far, the vast, vast majority of those who die while hauling or mining are people who are neglecting their own self defense.


Without wanting to be a complete a55 now, and you've pushed me on this all night without so much providing anything but your opinion, how are you defining the "vast majority"?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#143 - 2014-11-03 22:44:54 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:

Without wanting to be a complete a55 now, and you've pushed me on this all night without so much providing anything but your opinion, how are you defining the "vast majority"?


I'd say maybe one in twenty aren't part of that number, when it comes to dying while hauling or mining.

Now, your turn. Back up your "plenty of people" nonsense, if you don't mind. And the OP doesn't count, since it was an obvious lie from a disposable NPC alt.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Powers Sa
#144 - 2014-11-03 23:05:58 UTC
Hilti Enaka wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


And don't be carrying enough cargo to be worth ganking.


Not sure the likes of CODE, Bat Country, Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished care if there is value or not.

You should just think of all of this as miniluv and your life will be easier.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#145 - 2014-11-03 23:17:37 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
This is tough, how many times do i need to says its a lot easier today to not feel the consequence. gank someone in high sec 5 years ago and you're out in null sec ratting for 5 days to make the isk back, now you run incursions, run a few level 5's in a carrier that you can also afford. If anything Gankers are just as guilty at being lazy. It's nothing to do with smart game play.

There is this space full of people who think they are safe and they grind ISK all day long. They don't even have something to spend their ISK on, since they are so busy filling their wallets and they almost never lose ships. It's the perfect source of ISK.

Why should I go ratting in null if Highsec is filled with people with too much money, no situation awareness and no clue how to correctly pilot a ship?

The Highsec dwellers have become fat and lazy because that's what happens if you increase the safety as much as CCP did in the last years. This is a direct consequence of all the nerfs and you will probably just make it worse if you push for more, which would mean even fatter targets and more people willing to join the fight.

No amount of small nerfs will ever fix that. You would have to make Highsec perfectly safe, which would kill the balance totally and with it EVE. I have no doubt that CCP is capable of doing this to their only successful game.
Clair Bear
Perkone
Caldari State
#146 - 2014-11-04 00:00:14 UTC
TL;DR, but.

I haven't ganked anything except red + signs since 2010 (when I last solo ganked hulks in cheaper-than-insurance megathrons). That said, here are things that worked in the past that may still work now.

1. Fly crap that doesn't hurt when you lose. A 900 k sp alt with no implants / basic insurance is enough to ice mine effectively. We're talking procurer with t1 strips, if you get ganked just shrug and undock in a new one. It'll take your gankers longer to sit out the countdown than it will for you to re-make the ISK completely AFK. Fit a few kin/therm dirt cheap rigs in addition to the ice mining one for fun. I flew this on alts I specifically made last ice interdiction and was soundly ignored. Paying for a permit is moronic. OTOH, if you are an industrialist you should still consider funding the CODE. guys because they drive demand for ships and modules and they do it completely for free.

2. When freightering be prepared to pre-stink the dangerous gates CONCORD. You will need more crap alts to do this. For best effect do this JUST as you see the gank squad coming on dscan.

3. Get friends. Yes, your jump freighter may only have 500k ehp (or your orca only 240k), but if you have a bunch of neutral domis following to remote rep shields, armor AND structure while popping 5 mid slots worth of cap boosters suddenly the thing is much tougher to crack. Feel free to logoffski and get your own logi domi from 10 jumps away when aggressed, it's unlikely you'll die in 15 minutes unless someone big is hellbent on killing you and only you. Real logistics ships are nicer, of course, but who can fly that crap that isn't farming incursions? If you *DO* have a command ship pilot alt you can even have them tag along in something webby, boosty and reppy. Did I mention you can have all those domi guys spew out a truly ridiculous amount of heavy ECM and/or logistics drones of assorted flavors as well? Now, if people want to one-shot 200-500k ehp with Tornados that's still possible -- but you REALLY have to have pissed someone off for them to wrangle that kind of posse just for you.

4. Don't come down normal corridors. Jump in from somewhere unexpected.
Cancel Align NOW
The Distillery
Commonwealth Vanguard
#147 - 2014-11-04 00:10:45 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:


This is tough, how many times do i need to says its a lot easier today to not feel the consequence. gank someone in high sec 5 years ago and you're out in null sec ratting for 5 days to make the isk back, now you run incursions, run a few level 5's in a carrier that you can also afford. If anything Gankers are just as guilty at being lazy. It's nothing to do with smart game play.


I remember a glorious stage (about 5 years ago) where a certain T1 battleruiser was selling on the open market for less than the insurance payout + insurance premium. Please explain to me how there are less consequences today than back when I could gank, lose my ship to concord, collect insurance, dock up buy a new hull, fit it identically, spin ship for a few minutes and do it again.

You sir are looking at history in rose coloured glasses and only seeing the bits you want.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#148 - 2014-11-04 00:16:03 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:


This is tough, how many times do i need to says its a lot easier today to not feel the consequence. gank someone in high sec 5 years ago and you're out in null sec ratting for 5 days to make the isk back, now you run incursions, run a few level 5's in a carrier that you can also afford. If anything Gankers are just as guilty at being lazy. It's nothing to do with smart game play.


I remember a glorious stage (about 5 years ago) where a certain T1 battleruiser was selling on the open market for less than the insurance payout + insurance premium. Please explain to me how there are less consequences today than back when I could gank, lose my ship to concord, collect insurance, dock up buy a new hull, fit it identically, spin ship for a few minutes and do it again.

You sir are looking at history in rose coloured glasses and only seeing the bits you want.


The difference is that you never had a large group of players with a significant SRP who sit in highsec all day, every day, suicide ganking people. It's not the mechanics that have changed, it's the desire of a large swath of the nullsec playerbase to try and make highsec uninhabitable for new/casual players.
Clair Bear
Perkone
Caldari State
#149 - 2014-11-04 00:20:57 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:


This is tough, how many times do i need to says its a lot easier today to not feel the consequence. gank someone in high sec 5 years ago and you're out in null sec ratting for 5 days to make the isk back, now you run incursions, run a few level 5's in a carrier that you can also afford. If anything Gankers are just as guilty at being lazy. It's nothing to do with smart game play.


I remember a glorious stage (about 5 years ago) where a certain T1 battleruiser was selling on the open market for less than the insurance payout + insurance premium. Please explain to me how there are less consequences today than back when I could gank, lose my ship to concord, collect insurance, dock up buy a new hull, fit it identically, spin ship for a few minutes and do it again.

You sir are looking at history in rose coloured glasses and only seeing the bits you want.


Agreed. 5 years ago it cost something like 46M to bake an apoc (or was it a geddon?), and total insurance payout on it was 53M. It was enough to cover the smartbombs with a tiny bit left over to cover the times you forgot to insure. My gating factor was getting enough BPCs to build them right in Jita. I remember selling 50 at a time with my entire stock of smartbombs every time I'd run a batch.
Cancel Align NOW
The Distillery
Commonwealth Vanguard
#150 - 2014-11-04 00:23:49 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:


This is tough, how many times do i need to says its a lot easier today to not feel the consequence. gank someone in high sec 5 years ago and you're out in null sec ratting for 5 days to make the isk back, now you run incursions, run a few level 5's in a carrier that you can also afford. If anything Gankers are just as guilty at being lazy. It's nothing to do with smart game play.


I remember a glorious stage (about 5 years ago) where a certain T1 battleruiser was selling on the open market for less than the insurance payout + insurance premium. Please explain to me how there are less consequences today than back when I could gank, lose my ship to concord, collect insurance, dock up buy a new hull, fit it identically, spin ship for a few minutes and do it again.

You sir are looking at history in rose coloured glasses and only seeing the bits you want.


The difference is that you never had a large group of players with a significant SRP who sit in highsec all day, every day, suicide ganking people. It's not the mechanics that have changed, it's the desire of a large swath of the nullsec playerbase to try and make highsec uninhabitable for new/casual players.


Again with the rose tinted inaccurate history. In 2008,2009,2010 the 0.0 corp I belonged to had a month long internal mining ship hunting competition. The desire to create something that struck fear and rage into the hearts of others has always been there.

0.0 players are not trying to hurt new players. The fact a heavily weighted CSM has agreed with the awoxing change put forward by a 0.0 leader is pretty clear evidence to the contrary.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#151 - 2014-11-04 00:26:28 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

The difference is that you never had a large group of players with a significant SRP who sit in highsec all day, every day, suicide ganking people.


They did not need an SRP, but ganking was far more common back then. Smaller groups and solo gankers were far more commonplace.



Quote:

It's not the mechanics that have changed


Yes, it is. Literally.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#152 - 2014-11-04 00:26:38 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:


Again with the rose tinted inaccurate history. In 2008,2009,2010 the 0.0 corp I belonged to had a month long internal mining ship hunting competition. The desire to create something that struck fear and rage into the hearts of others has always been there.

0.0 players are not trying to hurt new players. The fact a heavily weighted CSM has agreed with the awoxing change put forward by a 0.0 leader is pretty clear evidence to the contrary.



How effective was your campaign? How much damage did you do? Compare to the current situation and all past sustained campaigns look farcical. The fact that some residents of nullsec support removing a rather irrational and nonsensical feature allowing you to freely shoot corpmates, which adds precisely no value to the game, and is completely unintuitive, does not demonstrate their affections for new/casual players. Who is funding CODE? Who funded a Venture killing competition that overwhelmingly targeted new playets? And who has been scamming new players out of untold sums through fake "recruitment' schemes?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#153 - 2014-11-04 00:31:25 UTC
And I see that Veers doesn't realize that adjusting for inflation since five years ago makes the ganking amounts of today hilariously small.

Or that what he's crusading for just leads to widening the gap between new players and old to a level that can't be overcome.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#154 - 2014-11-04 00:35:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And I see that Veers doesn't realize that adjusting for inflation since five years ago makes the ganking amounts of today hilariously small.

Or that what he's crusading for just leads to widening the gap between new players and old to a level that can't be overcome.


Confirming that after adjusting for inflation 1 trillion + in damage in a month by a single organization is nothing special and happened all the time. Roll

Hard to see how making it easier for EVERYONE to make ISK in highsec would "widen the gap between new players and old," considering that currently the new players are getting blown out of the game through awoxxing/wars/ganking while the vets are already set up for success in highsec or can safely farm null/wh/fw.

Gonna need to work on the Veers is widening the gap between the rich and the poor line of attack a bit more before it makes any sense. Maybe go read some more Obama speeches. What?
Haleuth
Peoples Liberation Army
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2014-11-04 00:37:26 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


The difference is that you never had a large group of players with a significant SRP who sit in highsec all day, every day, suicide ganking people. It's not the mechanics that have changed, it's the desire of a large swath of the nullsec playerbase to try and make highsec uninhabitable for new/casual players.


You dont know what your talking about, macrointel was the organisation that preceded code way back in 2006 and our brutix's and fittings were paid for by nullsec alliances/t2 BPO holders.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#156 - 2014-11-04 00:39:47 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Confirming that after adjusting for inflation 1 trillion + in damage in a month by a single organization is nothing special and happened all the time.


280 mil isn't that much, no.



Quote:

Hard to see how making it easier for EVERYONE to make ISK in highsec would "widen the gap between new players and old,"


It's easy for me to see how. But then, I'm not stupid or deluded.



Quote:

considering that currently the new players are getting blown out of the game through awoxxing/wars/ganking while the vets are already set up for success in highsec or can safely farm null/wh/fw.


Citation needed. From what CCP tells us, it's that new players are not experiencing enough conflict, since just leveling your Raven is sufficiently boring to make people quit.


Quote:

Gonna need to work on the Veers is widening the gap between the rich and the poor line of attack a bit more before it makes any sense.


Making highsec safer means that older players experience less loss.

This means that they can farm in safety with their higher skillpoints and more powerful ships long before a new player can ever reasonably do those things. Without loss, the older player never loses anything to bring his level of wealth lower, and he can increase his far more quickly than a new player can.

You are literally kicking newbies in the face by making highsec safer. Every little bit just means less effective purchasing power for new players.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2014-11-04 00:40:49 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And I see that Veers doesn't realize that adjusting for inflation since five years ago makes the ganking amounts of today hilariously small.

Or that what he's crusading for just leads to widening the gap between new players and old to a level that can't be overcome.


Confirming that after adjusting for inflation 1 trillion + in damage in a month by a single organization is nothing special and happened all the time. Roll

Hard to see how making it easier for EVERYONE to make ISK in highsec would "widen the gap between new players and old," considering that currently the new players are getting blown out of the game through awoxxing/wars/ganking while the vets are already set up for success in highsec or can safely farm null/wh/fw.

Gonna need to work on the Veers is widening the gap between the rich and the poor line of attack a bit more before it makes any sense. Maybe go read some more Obama speeches. What?



You have the reverse, highsec is supposed to make less than other more riskier space not more.

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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#158 - 2014-11-04 00:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
La Nariz wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And I see that Veers doesn't realize that adjusting for inflation since five years ago makes the ganking amounts of today hilariously small.

Or that what he's crusading for just leads to widening the gap between new players and old to a level that can't be overcome.


Confirming that after adjusting for inflation 1 trillion + in damage in a month by a single organization is nothing special and happened all the time. Roll

Hard to see how making it easier for EVERYONE to make ISK in highsec would "widen the gap between new players and old," considering that currently the new players are getting blown out of the game through awoxxing/wars/ganking while the vets are already set up for success in highsec or can safely farm null/wh/fw.

Gonna need to work on the Veers is widening the gap between the rich and the poor line of attack a bit more before it makes any sense. Maybe go read some more Obama speeches. What?



You have the reverse, highsec is supposed to make less than other more riskier space not more.


Except that nullsec is a LOT LESS RISKY than highsec, and yet nullsec missions pay far more, as does nullsec mining, not to mention anomalies. A risk/reward based system would involve massive nerfs to blue donut nullsec space.
Cancel Align NOW
The Distillery
Commonwealth Vanguard
#159 - 2014-11-04 00:49:04 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Cancel Align NOW wrote:


Again with the rose tinted inaccurate history. In 2008,2009,2010 the 0.0 corp I belonged to had a month long internal mining ship hunting competition. The desire to create something that struck fear and rage into the hearts of others has always been there.

0.0 players are not trying to hurt new players. The fact a heavily weighted CSM has agreed with the awoxing change put forward by a 0.0 leader is pretty clear evidence to the contrary.



How effective was your campaign? How much damage did you do? Compare to the current situation and all past sustained campaigns look farcical. The fact that some residents of nullsec support removing a rather irrational and nonsensical feature allowing you to freely shoot corpmates, which adds precisely no value to the game, and is completely unintuitive, does not demonstrate their affections for new/casual players. Who is funding CODE? Who funded a Venture killing competition that overwhelmingly targeted new playets? And who has been scamming new players out of untold sums through fake "recruitment' schemes?


I know in 2009 I took it seriously and personally had over 100 hulk kills. That is but one player. That corp had over 200 members..

I believe this demonstrates affection for new players

Who is funding CODE? The same people who funded M0o? Kugu? Peturssson? Anybody who likes seeing ships explode?

I would argue killing new players in ventures is better than letting them plex up into macks and then killing them. One enables a new pilot to learn that eve is harsh and move on quickly.

Goons do not scam newbies. Goons scam idiots who do no research and can not read big red writing on the front of their homepage.
Cancel Align NOW
The Distillery
Commonwealth Vanguard
#160 - 2014-11-04 00:50:13 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Cancel Align NOW wrote:


Again with the rose tinted inaccurate history. In 2008,2009,2010 the 0.0 corp I belonged to had a month long internal mining ship hunting competition. The desire to create something that struck fear and rage into the hearts of others has always been there.

0.0 players are not trying to hurt new players. The fact a heavily weighted CSM has agreed with the awoxing change put forward by a 0.0 leader is pretty clear evidence to the contrary.



How effective was your campaign? How much damage did you do? Compare to the current situation and all past sustained campaigns look farcical. The fact that some residents of nullsec support removing a rather irrational and nonsensical feature allowing you to freely shoot corpmates, which adds precisely no value to the game, and is completely unintuitive, does not demonstrate their affections for new/casual players. Who is funding CODE? Who funded a Venture killing competition that overwhelmingly targeted new playets? And who has been scamming new players out of untold sums through fake "recruitment' schemes?


I know in 2009 I took it seriously and personally had over 100 hulk kills. That is but one player. That corp had over 200 members..

I believe this demonstrates affection for new players

Who is funding CODE? The same people who funded M0o? Kugu? Peturssson? Anybody who likes seeing ships explode?

I would argue killing new players in ventures is better than letting them plex up into macks and then killing them. One enables a new pilot to learn that eve is harsh and move on quickly.

Goons do not scam newbies. Goons scam idiots who do no research and can not read big red writing on the front of their homepage.