These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Nerf Webs
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#81 - 2014-11-03 10:35:19 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


I suppose so, but that doesn't contribute to the argument.

fair enough.
try sig tanking then (halos,armour tank, afterburner),you get to laugh at websBlink


That is a niche role, I suppose that does make sense to counter webs, but it seems awkward for the smaller more fragile and less expensive ship to be forced into a niche just to avoid a general item, not only would snakes work better, but the halos simply would not end up being worth the investment.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#82 - 2014-11-03 10:39:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


I have a lot of experience in frigates, and I have killed several battleships with them you need webs to kill frigs. You need a web to hit frigates? Sure, but your bses web shouldn't have the same cpu requirements as the frigate web.


Its exactly the same as every other mod on your ship in that reguard. Or do you think they should also require to be massively larger to fit on battleships?

Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:

Please stop with the iteron already, a pvp ship, regardless of type, versus a PVE ship does not an argument make.


The argument is going right over your head. Its an example of a much bigger, much slow and with far far less firepower being able to get under the guns of a battleship and managing to break its tank. It doesnt matter if its a pve BS or not, the mechanics are the same. A frigate has a far easier time doing it than an iteron.


Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:

If what I suggest would really make it impossible for bses to hit frigs, then increase the tracking on them enough so that they can hit a frig that has been neuted to death, but stasis webifiers are a totally one-sided items, and should be made otherwise.


So tell me how a battleship hits an AB frigate at 2000m with its turrets even when it is webbed?


Neut it out. It slows down to battleship speeds it still evades some damage but with both drones and grazing weapons, it won't last very long. Apparently this argument is only going over your head, or perhaps it is, under your guns. Obviously you don't fly frigates. Fighting anything larger than a destroyer in a frig is far more difficult then engaging a frig with a bs.
And yes they should have battleship scaled fitting requirements. That is the thesis of the argument.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#83 - 2014-11-03 10:41:04 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


I suppose so, but that doesn't contribute to the argument.

fair enough.
try sig tanking then (halos,armour tank, afterburner),you get to laugh at websBlink


That is a niche role, I suppose that does make sense to counter webs, but it seems awkward for the smaller more fragile and less expensive ship to be forced into a niche just to avoid a general item, not only would snakes work better, but the halos simply would not end up being worth the investment.

if you set out to brawl with stuff thats bigger than you then they will pay for themselves in short order , with links and high grades you can have the sig radius of a drone, combine that with high resists an you will be surprisingly hard to kill.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#84 - 2014-11-03 10:43:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Azazel The Misanthrope
afkalt wrote:
Here's another question for you:

If webs are nerfed, why would ANYONE fly ANYTHING other than - garmur, succubus? Because they'd be actually immortal.



ed: @Baltec merlins are blaster fit - would need to be kestrels :)


Garmurs are shut down by scrams more than webs, and the succubus is already unstoppable a far as velocities go, if you really want to stop it you need a daredevil or two-fast tackle frigs with webs. The web effect would only apply to scaling. So for frigs vs frigs web effects would remain the same. Also, both of those ships fit niche roles and aren't really applicable to this discussion.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#85 - 2014-11-03 10:45:39 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


I suppose so, but that doesn't contribute to the argument.

fair enough.
try sig tanking then (halos,armour tank, afterburner),you get to laugh at websBlink


That is a niche role, I suppose that does make sense to counter webs, but it seems awkward for the smaller more fragile and less expensive ship to be forced into a niche just to avoid a general item, not only would snakes work better, but the halos simply would not end up being worth the investment.

if you set out to brawl with stuff thats bigger than you then they will pay for themselves in short order , with links and high grades you can have the sig radius of a drone, combine that with high resists an you will be surprisingly hard to kill.


Those kinds of links are an investment usually worth as much as the battleship that you are trying to kill, it is again, a niche role. While it does work, it works because it is designed specifically to do that and it will specifically do that whether webs are scaled or not.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#86 - 2014-11-03 10:48:32 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


Neut it out. It slows down to battleship speeds it still evades some damage but with both drones and grazing weapons, it won't last very long. Apparently this argument is only going over your head, or perhaps it is, under your guns. Obviously you don't fly frigates. Fighting anything larger than a destroyer in a frig is far more difficult then engaging a frig with a bs.
And yes they should have battleship scaled fitting requirements. That is the thesis of the argument.


Even neuted out at 2000m you are not going to be hitting that frigate. I fly battleships, Im telling you frigates are the single worst thing for a turret BS to go up against at point blank range.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#87 - 2014-11-03 10:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
baltec1 wrote:


Even neuted out at 2000m you are not going to be hitting that frigate. I fly battleships, Im telling you frigates are the single worst thing for a turret BS to go up against at point blank range.

confirming this , i frequently fly frigates point blank against turret battleships ,
they need scram,webs,neuts and strong drone skills to kill you.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2014-11-03 11:00:26 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Here's another question for you:

If webs are nerfed, why would ANYONE fly ANYTHING other than - garmur, succubus? Because they'd be actually immortal.



ed: @Baltec merlins are blaster fit - would need to be kestrels :)


Garmurs are shut down by scrams more than webs, and the succubus is already unstoppable a far as velocities go, if you really want to stop it you need a daredevil or two-fast tackle frigs with webs. The web effect would only apply to scaling. So for frigs vs frigs web effects would remain the same. Also, both of those ships fit niche roles and aren't really applicable to this discussion.


A garmur can outscram anything due to its range, it is entirely relevant. You'd create two ships which would be literally unstoppable.

Webs are fine, they are the only thing stopping scram frigates from dominating the entire non-blob meta. It would be assult frigates online.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#89 - 2014-11-03 11:02:50 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:

Can you avoid being shot up by a cruiser in a frig while not having any prop mods going? Because if prop mods are the counter to web, then presumably with no web, no prop mod would be necessary.


Yes, typically with close enough range and provided that neither ship have propulsion, you can avoid being shot up by a cruiser in a frig, with no propulsion, if that cruiser has no webs.[/quote]

So to make a point you need to remove the sole purpose of a shipsize and class as a whole?

Yep, sounds almost reasonable..

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#90 - 2014-11-03 11:08:46 UTC
Even the best tracking medium guns will not hit a single webbed AB frigate, even a cruiser has to be specifically fitted to be able to deal with a frigate.

This thread makes no sense whatsoever.

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#91 - 2014-11-03 12:05:03 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
A lone frigate vs a lone battle cruiser should be a stalemate, with neither being able to break the others tank; without the battle cruiser bringing back-up to tackle the frigate down or the frigate bringing back-up to break the battle cruiser's defenses. Instead, this engagements plays out more like, "Battle cruiser webs down frigate (twice[?]), frigate dies."


Sounds like someone can't pilot a frig <.<

But yes, there should be stronger/more demanding to fit points/webs or tackle in general for bigger ships, with downsides when fitting a smaller version.
While at it, could also spread those ranges a little: Frigatepoint to 18km, cruiser to 24km and BS point to 26km or similar. Frigateweb/scram to 6km, cruiser to 10k and BS to a bit more. Or something along those lines...
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#92 - 2014-11-03 13:10:43 UTC
i would advocate a web strength nerf say a T2 web should max out at 45%

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#93 - 2014-11-03 14:34:11 UTC
Webs are not OP. Let me guess, if webs are nurffed and you die to a neut, you will be back asking for a nurff to neuts.. etc

There is a very easy counter to webs. Don't get too close.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2014-11-03 14:36:30 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
There is a very easy counter to webs. Don't get too close.


Linked rapier with faction webs says "hi" at well over 70km Pirate
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2014-11-03 14:37:18 UTC
Webs have a pretty short range, but I think large ships have too easy a time hitting small ones.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2014-11-03 15:08:07 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
As it is webs are just a bad game mechanic. .


Oh, so ECM is alright huh?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#97 - 2014-11-03 15:18:22 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
As it is webs are just a bad game mechanic. .


Oh, so ECM is alright huh?


Now that you say it I haven't seen a falcon in months...
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#98 - 2014-11-03 15:23:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


Neut it out. It slows down to battleship speeds it still evades some damage but with both drones and grazing weapons, it won't last very long. Apparently this argument is only going over your head, or perhaps it is, under your guns. Obviously you don't fly frigates. Fighting anything larger than a destroyer in a frig is far more difficult then engaging a frig with a bs.
And yes they should have battleship scaled fitting requirements. That is the thesis of the argument.


Even neuted out at 2000m you are not going to be hitting that frigate. Ige, fly battleships, Im telling you frigates are the single worst thing for a turret BS to go up against at point blank range.


If really is the worst thing for you to go up against at point blank range, you should bring a destroyer to aid you in all of these cases.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#99 - 2014-11-03 15:33:47 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Even neuted out at 2000m you are not going to be hitting that frigate. I fly battleships, Im telling you frigates are the single worst thing for a turret BS to go up against at point blank range.

confirming this , i frequently fly frigates point blank against turret battleships ,
they need scram,webs,neuts and strong drone skills to kill you.


Of course this keeps trailing back to quoting the most disparaged scenario as a standard engagement. That Battleship should bring a smaller ship to help him kill smaller ships in all of these cases. It is particularly nonsensical that ships like that can fly around unsupported like that at all. Although there should be some way for these things to be effective, webs are modules that target one ship class specifically, and it is that targeting that is unbalanced, most other ships can shrug off being webbed, because they have a significant amount of ehp to do so; frigates do not have substantial amounts of ehp without serious isk investment, like I said before, they can fit webs, but there should be more of a choice for doing so, if a web is an item that targets a specific ship class, it should have penalties that make the ship equipping it less effective at engaging other ship classes. If that means a larger CPU fitting requirement so that you have to choose between your EANM and your web, then that makes sense. Fine; however, currently there are no modules that reduces the other ships ability to survive by 60%.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#100 - 2014-11-03 15:36:01 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:

Can you avoid being shot up by a cruiser in a frig while not having any prop mods going? Because if prop mods are the counter to web, then presumably with no web, no prop mod would be necessary.


Yes, typically with close enough range and provided that neither ship have propulsion, you can avoid being shot up by a cruiser in a frig, with no propulsion, if that cruiser has no webs.


So to make a point you need to remove the sole purpose of a shipsize and class as a whole?

Yep, sounds almost reasonable..[/quote]

Your information is not comprehensive enough to infer that conclusion, please explain what you mean more accurately, or I won't be able to consider your point.