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Target Painting buff

Author
Ix Method
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-11-02 18:21:51 UTC
Thankyou for the baby steps, colour this pointless.

Travelling at the speed of love.

Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#22 - 2014-11-02 18:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Ix Method wrote:


Proposing that in addition to increasing the target's effective Sig Radius, TPs should also decrease the target's effective (but not actual) speed for weapons calculations.

(numbers pulled out of my arse for example purposes)

So for example a 150m sig ship going 1000m/s might become a 180m sized ship, still actually travelling at 1000m/s but being tracked as if it were moving 800m/s.



Ummm, this is basically how TPs work.

Basically the super quick run down version of how tracking works is it basically compares the targets transversal, to your gun transversal, then it compares the targets sig radius to your gun sig radius. So by either slowing the target down, or by blooming his sig radius, you can track the target better.

When you look at the design between TP and webs, webs are more effective, but TP have a longer range (If you only look at the tracking aspect).

But this is changed when you look specifically at the Rapier/Huginn...
1. In PVP, being able to not only track the target better, but dictating range is much more important then just tracking the target better. Also, slowing down that target as it tries to burn back to the gate, is way more effective then just blowing his sig up. Face it, these are PVP boats, not PVE.
Net Result = Webs >> TP

2. We cannot see signature radius change on our overviews because there is no setting for it (Add signature radius to the overiew). So part of it is psychological because we cannot actually see anything change on the target itself, yet when we apply a web to someone, we can physically see their velocity slow down, and their transversal velocity decrease.
Net Result = Webs > TP

3. Their webs can reach out as far as the Gallente Recons can point, which means there's no reason to pick TP over webs unless you have enough webs on the target where anymore webs won't be any realistic benefit to your fleet.
Net Result = Webs > TP

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-11-02 19:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Hopelesshobo wrote:
So by either slowing the target down, or by blooming his sig radius, you can track the target better.


Yup and whilst I've not looked at the math to get the precise numbers, I'd be willing to bet you need multiple TPs to improve the damage to the same degree a single web does.

Speed mitgating everything so well is why webs boost applied damage so much - it's less about webbing power itself and more about the damage formulae.

There is no way to boost painters without screwing with that without at the same time making a combination of webs/painters mean even a phoenix can blap anything.


Edit: Even if webs boosted no damage, they'd still see huge widespread use as tackle.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#24 - 2014-11-03 00:43:46 UTC
I would like to see the t2 TP moved up to a 40% signature radius bonus before skills, and everything else moved up or down in proportion to this.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-11-03 01:12:47 UTC
I was thinking this would only allow a buff to the ship using the TP rather than the whole fleet. So a small buff to TP's for ships using it. Other ships in fleet still get the same flat buff TP's give currently. This would create variation in fleets as you would need to calculate whether everyone carrying their own TP is worth the extra DPS it provides on fast ships, or if bringing some dedicated web ships is better.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#26 - 2014-11-03 02:04:00 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
I would like to see the t2 TP moved up to a 40% signature radius bonus before skills, and everything else moved up or down in proportion to this.


Turn on the heat - your painter does 43.7 now Smile

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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#27 - 2014-11-03 05:36:56 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
I would like to see the t2 TP moved up to a 40% signature radius bonus before skills, and everything else moved up or down in proportion to this.


Turn on the heat - your painter does 43.7 now Smile

I want that before heat, because then it does comparable things against an armor ship that a web does to a shield ship, and negates almost all issues with turret application. also helps missiles more, which seems to be your current personal crusade.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#28 - 2014-11-03 09:00:59 UTC
As others have stated, blooming a target's sig is mathematically identical to reducing the target's speed, for tracking equations. You get the same result if you reduce the target's speed by 20% as you do if you bloom the target's sig by 25% (1.25 being the inverse of 0.8). There's no bias towards velocity in the equations, nor are there any caps except the 100% accuracy cap.

Now, missiles often get more benefit from sig bloom than from speed simply because their equation is the lesser of the ratio of the sig radius to the explosion radius or the normal equation which accounts for both sig and speed. That means even if the target is dead stationary, you still won't do 100% damage to a target smaller than your explosion radius. TPs always increase missile damage up to the 100% damage cap. The same is not true for webs.

Now, I tend to agree that TPs are pretty weak, but your suggestion is 100% identical to a flat buff to their bonus.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-11-03 09:05:18 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i think it comes back too webs being so powerful .. why use a TP on a rapier when you could have webs reaching 60km?



Because with info links a t2 target painter has 84% effect. In other words MORe than an extra web, AND it does not stack against webs. So If you have 2 rapiers in your fleet having one with 2 webs and 1 painter and the other with 1 web and 2 painters wield the LARGEST result. Also its a fallacy that TP do not help turrets, they help turrets as well as they help missiles. It is just that missiles have a more abrupt curve on the damage application so you feel the NEED to use the TP when at one moment you do X damage, and after a slight increase in velocity of target.. suddenly you deal 1/5th of the damage.


Also they make ships easier to lock by larger ships.

The current problem of TP is that larger ships are NOT WORTH BRINGING to a combat (i.e battleships).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2014-11-03 09:07:16 UTC


Also, add a module/ rig that reduces your signature by some 5% and 7% (t1/t2) and suddenly people would feel the need to use the TP more.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2014-11-03 09:10:34 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
TP's do this. its just not as useful as range and positioning control and the actual modifier for TP's (+40%) is much lower than webs (1/0.4 = 2.5 = +150%).

but should you really be comparing TP's to webs? should it not be more like TP's to tracking disruptors?


The problem comes when you've got a ship like the Rapier with both bonuses. Besides the lower expense of getting range out of TPs, the bonus to webs is the only one to get used, ever, making half the EWAR bonuses redundant.



One way to partially solve that. Remake the huggin. Make it a pure missile ship with 5 launchers and give the huggin a 20% Target painter effectiveness Bonus per level. Make its web bonus weaker, ont he same level as the hyena. Then you ahve a ship that likely will field 1 web and 1 TP always.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Gunz blazing Ronuken
Insane's Asylum
#32 - 2014-11-03 11:06:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunz blazing Ronuken
Best way is to do like with omnidirectional tracking computers, give target painters scripts to boost them, as long as ccp dont nerf their current bonuses while implementing scripted option. Smile
Easy to implement and could shake up the meta carefully? Smile

+1 for target painting rigs Big smile
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#33 - 2014-11-03 14:38:49 UTC
I still find TP very good, and i don't think they really need much of a change. On a Rapier, once you consider that webs get stacking penalties, a TP rather than the 3rd web is often a good choice. Bombers often use them of course. Sure its not "good for all cases" but then it is not suppose to be.

For our long bow doctrine (long range rails), a TP makes the difference between hitting and missing.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

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