These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Nerf Webs
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2014-11-03 07:46:58 UTC
ive heard of people wanting serpentis ships webbing nerfed, even heard someone say that rapier/huginn webs are OP, but i have never heard someone say the bonused ships are fine and the module itself is op.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#22 - 2014-11-03 07:48:59 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
It has been suggested before. Web nerfs have been called for almost as often as cloaking nerfs.


That said, this one seems like a semi-reasonable idea, with categories of webs that scale well with the sizes of ship, but with lower velocity penalty. I for one, would pay good isk to have webs which reached further at the expense of more fitting requirements and some of the velocity. I do not think this would be easy to balance however, as a loki or a bhaalgorn would be seriously able to abuse these in range terms, and a vindicator would just end up with the current webs at much longer ranges.



The Bhaalghorn and Vindicator should be able to use their webs in a way that further compliment their standard weapon ranges anyway. The Loki (and possibly the Bhaalgorn as well) can have its ranges reduced if necessary, or they could just receive a flat bonus per level for extending web ranges, rather than one based on a multiplier. These flat range extensions can be scaled to the appropriate ship size.

Still it requires substantial other balancing. Maybe some numbers to toss out and see how badly they end up broken with the current ships (which manual number crunching I'm willing to do) would help your case? I happen to be very much pro-battleships and would love to see something which makes them more worth it on grid overall come out of this, even if it nerfs them at knife-ranges.


It seems like battleships having more of any ability to make use of their ability to project damage over range rather than be confined to knife fight ranges like they usually are would be preferable. BSes and other ships of the class don't usually travel as quickly, and combined with their massive sig radi, it makes more sense for them to have less powerful, but more lengthy webs. I am not sure of how I am supposed to do the math, but I can figure it out.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#23 - 2014-11-03 07:50:32 UTC
Rowells wrote:
ive heard of people wanting serpentis ships webbing nerfed, even heard someone say that rapier/huginn webs are OP, but i have never heard someone say the bonused ships are fine and the module itself is op.


The bonused ships are fine because they are ships for specific roles, like the HIC versus capitals.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#24 - 2014-11-03 07:55:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Webs are the only reason I stand any chance of hitting smaller ships with my solo mega.


Thank you for proving my point.


What? That battleships should be helpless vs a vast number of ships?


The tank on your mega should usually be proficient enough that even a substantially large group of frigates pose no threat to it. However, the webs on your mega pose a substantial threat to those frigates, and for a battleship? 1 pg and 24 cpu is nothing. While the 13 frigate that need to be drawn to kill you is a lot of capital that needs to be drawn from, you shouldn't be helpless, but neither should they.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2014-11-03 07:58:33 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Webs are the only reason I stand any chance of hitting smaller ships with my solo mega.


Thank you for proving my point.


What? That battleships should be helpless vs a vast number of ships?


The tank on your mega should usually be proficient enough that even a substantially large group of frigates pose no threat to it. However, the webs on your mega pose a substantial threat to those frigates, and for a battleship? 1 pg and 24 cpu is nothing. While the 13 frigate that need to be drawn to kill you is a lot of capital that needs to be drawn from, you shouldn't be helpless, but neither should they.


You have zero understanding of how battleships work based on what you just said.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#26 - 2014-11-03 08:00:06 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
What about a modification to webs, where the power of the web is not a fixed percentage decrease in target speed, but a fixed Newton-metre per metre of sig radius in drag?

Thus a small web would be effective against frigates but useless against larger ships, while a large web would be effective against battleships but ineffective against frigates.


If it were to scale up/down appropriately enough so that the change would be gradual through ship classes rather than simply ceasing to work after a certain point altogether, that would be the optimal situation; then the role ships could simply use their bonuses to optimize that and retain their effectiveness.

That is the best response that I have gotten to this.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#27 - 2014-11-03 08:02:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Prop mods have fitting requirements scaled to the ship. You can put a prop mod on that can help you go fast, but a cruiser can fit more webs, more easily, with more defenses, and more dps. I am NOT saying that webs should be REMOVED, but that the fitting requirements for them should be scaled. A there are not usually dedicated ships for webs in fleets. Virtually every brawling ship will carry one. If the ship is armor tanked there is no consequence or reduced effectiveness for fitting a web, you lose a minuscule amount of cpu, and virtually no powergrid, for the ability to severely incapacitate any frigate class ship. Frigates need webs for other frigates. This was mentioned in the post. Smalls can keep their own webs. Solo ships can keep their webs I never suggested that they didn't have them, but I suggested that they have a different kind. It is a false choice because there is no reason for not having them, there is only a benefit, with no drawback, therefore you are presented with a choice whose answer is obvious.


Basically, what you want is different sizes of Ewar modules, with the same stats in terms of effectiveness, just higher fitting requirements. And that obviously for all the Ewar modules: Small Sensor Dampeners for frigates, Medium Damps for Cruisers and BC and Large for BS+; Small Tracking Disruptors for frigs, Mediums for C/BC and Large for BS+; and so on. That clutter is going to be a joy.

You do realize that these solo fittings and fittings in general are usually extremely tight and that increased fitting requirements mean a rebalance of the stats from Cruisers up is necessary, which opens up a host of new problems, for instance fitting large guns on normal BC or ridiculous tank on them plus lots of Damage if you opt not to use a web or other ewar module and leave that to dedicated ships. Or it would prevent them from fitting any ewar module as their stats were not changed and they have no way whatsoever to fit them.

Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
If you want to kill frigates in your battleship, and that battleship isn't a vindicator, bring another frigate with you, or bring a Rapier, Loki, Vigilant, or destroyer. Just like if you wanted to kill a battleship in your frigate, you would bring an attack battleship to help you.


You are missing the point of Solo. You are also ignoring that an web'd, ABing or MWDing Frigate outruns a web'd ABing/MWDing BS still and can either get back to a gate or out of the BS's web range with relative ease. You are also seemingly ignoring the fact that the BS still has enormous problems hitting you, as it traded a possible TC in the Mid slots for a web, which only helps with tracking as long as the frigate stays in range. You are also presuming that a frigate should be easily able to kill a BS, regardless of what the BS does. That might be your and CCP's deluded point of view, but in my opinion a lone frigate should have immense trouble killing a BS or any bigger ship for that matter that came prepared for such situations. Saying that small ships should be superior to bigger ships no matter what is ridiculous.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#28 - 2014-11-03 08:03:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Webs are the only reason I stand any chance of hitting smaller ships with my solo mega.


Thank you for proving my point.


What? That battleships should be helpless vs a vast number of ships?


The tank on your mega should usually be proficient enough that even a substantially large group of frigates pose no threat to it. However, the webs on your mega pose a substantial threat to those frigates, and for a battleship? 1 pg and 24 cpu is nothing. While the 13 frigate that need to be drawn to kill you is a lot of capital that needs to be drawn from, you shouldn't be helpless, but neither should they.


You have zero understanding of how battleships work based on what you just said.


Don't take it at face value. It is allegorical. Not literal. Even with that being said. A lone battleship can kill several frigates, simply because it has a web. There is no module, that gives any lone frig a chance against a well formed battleship.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#29 - 2014-11-03 08:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You have zero understanding of how battleships work based on what you just said.


Don't take it at face value. It is allegorical. Not literal. Even with that being said. A lone battleship can kill several frigates, simply because it has a web. There is no module, that gives any lone frig a chance against a well formed battleship.


Tracking Disruptors (no BS guns can hit a frigate with just 1 TD)? Sensor Damps (lovely locking time of 1 minute or more)? Jams (you can't lock at all)? Scrams (oh, stay there for a bit and don't move so that I can hit you from over here)? Neuts (in sufficient numbers)?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2014-11-03 08:10:31 UTC
Azazel wrote:


Don't take it at face value. It is allegorical. Not literal. Even with that being said. A lone battleship can kill several frigates, simply because it has a web. There is no module, that gives any lone frig a chance against a well formed battleship.


Tracking disruptor to name but one.

Even with the web it is not easy for a turret battleship to deal with frigates.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#31 - 2014-11-03 08:11:11 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Prop mods have fitting requirements scaled to the ship. You can put a prop mod on that can help you go fast, but a cruiser can fit more webs, more easily, with more defenses, and more dps. I am NOT saying that webs should be REMOVED, but that the fitting requirements for them should be scaled. A there are not usually dedicated ships for webs in fleets. Virtually every brawling ship will carry one. If the ship is armor tanked there is no consequence or reduced effectiveness for fitting a web, you lose a minuscule amount of cpu, and virtually no powergrid, for the ability to severely incapacitate any frigate class ship. Frigates need webs for other frigates. This was mentioned in the post. Smalls can keep their own webs. Solo ships can keep their webs I never suggested that they didn't have them, but I suggested that they have a different kind. It is a false choice because there is no reason for not having them, there is only a benefit, with no drawback, therefore you are presented with a choice whose answer is obvious.


Basically, what you want is different sizes of Ewar modules, with the same stats in terms of effectiveness, just higher fitting requirements. And that obviously for all the Ewar modules: Small Sensor Dampeners for frigates, Medium Damps for Cruisers and BC and Large for BS+; Small Tracking Disruptors for frigs, Mediums for C/BC and Large for BS+; and so on. That clutter is going to be a joy.

You do realize that these solo fittings and fittings in general are usually extremely tight and that increased fitting requirements mean a rebalance of the stats from Cruisers up is necessary, which opens up a host of new problems, for instance fitting large guns on normal BC or ridiculous tank on them plus lots of Damage if you opt not to use a web or other ewar module and leave that to dedicated ships. Or it would prevent them from fitting any ewar module as their stats were not changed and they have no way whatsoever to fit them.


Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
If you want to kill frigates in your battleship, and that battleship isn't a vindicator, bring another frigate with you, or bring a Rapier, Loki, Vigilant, or destroyer. Just like if you wanted to kill a battleship in your frigate, you would bring an attack battleship to help you.


You are missing the point of Solo. You are also ignoring that an web'd, ABing or MWDing Frigate outruns a web'd ABing/MWDing BS still and can either get back to a gate or out of the BS's web range with relative ease. You are also seemingly ignoring the fact that the BS still has enormous problems hitting you, as it traded a possible TC in the Mid slots for a web, which only helps with tracking as long as the frigate stays in range. You are also presuming that a frigate should be easily able to kill a BS, regardless of what the BS does. That might be your and CCP's deluded point of view, but in my opinion a lone frigate should have immense trouble killing a BS or any bigger ship for that matter that came prepared for such situations. Saying that small ships should be superior to bigger ships no matter what is ridiculous.



Making it that your cruiser's web cost 1pg and 70 cpu instead of 1pg and 24 cpu doesn't require you to rebalance the statistics of all of the ships.


A solo bs does not fit 1 web, he fits 2 or more. Most solo bses have the ability to completely neutralize the sole advantage of a smaller ship class. I NEVER presumed that a frigate should be able to easliy kill a bs. A frigate CAN NOT easily defeat a bs; however, it is EASY for a bs to beat a frigate. I am saying that NEITHER side should be able to defeat EACH side easily. I NEVER said that small ships should be superior to anyone.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2014-11-03 08:12:40 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:

A solo bs does not fit 1 web, he fits 2 or more.


Feel free to tell us how you fit two webs on a solo mega.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#33 - 2014-11-03 08:14:18 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You have zero understanding of how battleships work based on what you just said.


Don't take it at face value. It is allegorical. Not literal. Even with that being said. A lone battleship can kill several frigates, simply because it has a web. There is no module, that gives any lone frig a chance against a well formed battleship.


Tracking Disruptors (no BS guns can hit a frigate with just 1 TD)? Sensor Damps (lovely locking time of 1 minute or more)? Jams (you can't lock at all)? Scrams (oh, stay there for a bit and don't more so that I can hit you from over here)? Neuts (in sufficient numbers)?



It takes almost a small neuts to kill the cap on a large vessel. All ship classes can suffer penalties from those ewar statistics that you mentioned. Only frigates suffer substantially form webs. You are either not reading what I am writing, or I am not explaining myself clear enough.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#34 - 2014-11-03 08:16:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel wrote:


Don't take it at face value. It is allegorical. Not literal. Even with that being said. A lone battleship can kill several frigates, simply because it has a web. There is no module, that gives any lone frig a chance against a well formed battleship.


Tracking disruptor to name but one.

Even with the web it is not easy for a turret battleship to deal with frigates.


Tracking disruptors have the same effect across all ship classes, only frigates are substantially effected by webs. TD does not help a frigate kill a battleship.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2014-11-03 08:17:06 UTC
[quote=Azazel Only frigates suffer substantially form webs. [/quote]

A frigate webbing a larger ship means the larger ship cannot dictate range which means the faster figate can still get under the guns.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2014-11-03 08:18:09 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


Tracking disruptors have the same effect across all ship classes, only frigates are substantially effected by webs. TD does not help a frigate kill a battleship.


Wrong.

They impact large weapons much more than small ones.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#37 - 2014-11-03 08:19:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:

A solo bs does not fit 1 web, he fits 2 or more.


Feel free to tell us how you fit two webs on a solo mega.


Simple: A Megathron has 15500 mw pg and 600 cpu base. You carry a mobile depot, and when you are attacked by a frig drop it you will definitely last the 60 seconds, and then equip a web or more. It is really that simple.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#38 - 2014-11-03 08:20:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
[quote=Azazel Only frigates suffer substantially form webs.


A frigate webbing a larger ship means the larger ship cannot dictate range which means the faster figate can still get under the guns.[/quote]

The larger ship could never dictate range.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#39 - 2014-11-03 08:22:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


Tracking disruptors have the same effect across all ship classes, only frigates are substantially effected by webs. TD does not help a frigate kill a battleship.


Wrong.

They impact large weapons much more than small ones.


Your tracking does not effect your ability to survive like a web effects a frigs ability to not get alpha'd.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2014-11-03 08:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:

A solo bs does not fit 1 web, he fits 2 or more.


Feel free to tell us how you fit two webs on a solo mega.


Simple: A Megathron has 15500 mw pg and 600 cpu base. You carry a mobile depot, and when you are attacked by a frig drop it you will definitely last the 60 seconds, and then equip a web or more. It is really that simple.


So you do without the cap boosters and ammo you need, nevermind the fact there there simply isn't the time to do this.