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Telemortation removed: can we address medical clone costs now?

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lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#61 - 2014-11-02 10:16:38 UTC
Ama Scelesta wrote:

You didn't give any game design reasons why the costs should remain though. "I can afford it" is just you saying you don't care about the cost. Why do you think PvP in general needs to be taxed beyond the normal equipment loss and why do the costs need to keep climbing for older characters to such an extent? Try to come up with reason other than tradition. What if the feature wasn't already in the game and was introduced as a new feature? How would you implement it and why those details?

To me it seems it wasn't given much thought when initially implemented. There were no high skill characters at the time, so they probably thought they had years to change the system, if problems popped up. They were right on that. Problem being CCP didn't properly follow up and iterate on things in general until recently and issues are ignored until sufficient number of people start to suffer from them. We started to arrive at the critical mass of complaint a year or two ago, but CCP had bigger fish to fry at that point. Now that they're properly rethinking existing mechanics and their purpose, I can't imagine the current medical clone system surviving that process without significant changes. With the changes made to medclone travel it just seems increasingly like a unnecessary deterrent to PvP in a PvP focused game.

The cost should remain to continue to remove isk from the game. If 41k players are online, half get podded lets say the average for the pods would be the 9.1m clone for maths sake. That is 373m a day destroyed in pods alone. Its a very small number but in 31 days that is 11B isk that is out of game. Again very small compared to what is brought in hourly in this game.


PVP needs to be taxed in general? What on earth do you mean? What on earth do you mean? Do you understand how much isk is destroyed every day in the forum of ships, modules and cargo a day? In 48 hours shadow cartel alone has lost 11.8b isk in ships and fits. You have nullsec alliances who are losing carriers lef t and right. Fights that end up with 10b+ in damage over a 30 minute span. How does PVP need to be more taxing yet we should cut or remove the cost of clones?

Medclones have never been a deterrent to PVP. The deterrent from PVP has always been the loss of ones ship. If the clone cost itself is a deterrent for people I fear for what their thoughts are on losing a T2 Cruiser or higher. I mean out of all the things that people PVP in, they cost way more than than a clone. I mean hell, clones cost less than the T2 fits for ships.

So my question to you is why remove something that removes isk from the game and is so minimal compared to everything else in this game? Why even touch something that really has no impact at all in a loss? Why remove something that is cheaper than replacing a set of implants? Why remove something that is a fraction, a small fraction of your overall loss in pvp? Why remove something that destroys more from this already flooded game of spreadsheets and currency?
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#62 - 2014-11-02 10:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: lord xavier
Primary This Rifter wrote:
lord xavier wrote:
It is roughly 1,953,000,000 isk. If you cant make that in nullsec in a single month. You are doing it wrong.

If you expect us to, you're pretty stupid.

I expect anyone who wants to PvP, or really even play eve to be able to fund themselves for their activities. Not cry to CCP to give them free stuff.

If my memory serves me correctly, you can make 100m/hr doing Havens/Sanctums without a carrier. With a carrier is 200m/hr So, dare I say it would take 20 hours to make 2b, so 1 hour a day ratting for a month would make 3b-3.1b a month using a subcap.

No, I am pretty sure nullsec and wormholes are the most lucrative space in the game. You, a 4S person cannot tell me that. given your corporation has been in nullsec for years and fields quite a capital fleet if I am not mistaken. You cannot tell me your Corporation, Alliance or Coalition hands out all of its capitals to people. Your alliance owns, with sov modules, a large amount of Deklein and multiple systems in Pure Blind. There is absolutely no way you can not tel me you cannot make 2 billion isk a month in null sov. If you really believe you cannot you are absolutely the worst nullsec player.

And just for an example before you spout of some crap out of your mouth. Accourding to Dotlan

System: CZDJ-1
NPCs killed in the last 24 hours: 20,112
Bounty per NPC for a -0.95: 200,000 to 1,100,000

Let us go with the smallest bounty/

200,000 x 20,112 = 4,022,400,000 isk generated in a 24 hour period.
1,100,000 x 20,112 = 22,123,200,00 isk generated in a 24 hour period.
So, 4b to 22b generated in 1 day, in one system.
You can factor loot/salvage into it if you grab that or have an alt that does that.

Yes, 2b a month is absolutely impossible and I am pretty stupid for thinking it can be done.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#63 - 2014-11-02 12:32:14 UTC
lord xavier wrote:
Yes, 2b a month is absolutely impossible and I am pretty stupid for thinking it can be done.

No, that's not what I said.
I said that it's dumb for you to expect us to do it for med clones.
It's absolutely absurd that you think a game mechanic just to prevent us from losing SP when we die should cost that much.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#64 - 2014-11-02 12:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
You justify keeping this cost by saying that ISK needs to be removed from the game but then you go on to show, by giving a very generous estimate of the average clone cost no less, that this adds up to a very small number. If I wanted to, I could cover the med clone costs of everyone in the game for a month, and I'm not by any means what you'd consider affluent. You're really not helping your argument. You could, given what I'd like to remind you again is a quite generous estimate of the ISK removed from the game by med clone costs, easily just remove clone costs altogether and the impact on the economy would be negligible.

There are ways to increase the sink while simultaneously removing a mechanic that unduly punishes people who pvp in smaller ships with more SP. You could increase costs of skillbooks and blueprints by a very small percentage. You could increase NPC corp taxes by a very small percentage. You could implement a subscription-based clone insurance that covers SP up to a certain amount for a certain period, regardless of how many pods are lost. You could do any number of changes which players would barely even notice but which would be more than enough to offset the loss of the ISK sink that medical clones offer.

I could probably cover being podded 3 times a day every day for a month if I really wanted to, but why should I? I'll just PVP in my carrier instead, where I'm pretty unlucky if I get podded even once a month. The point is not that we can't cover the cost, it's that we do other things so we don't have to bother with that cost. Perhaps that's risk averse, but the game suffers for it.
Yourmoney Mywallet
Doomheim
#65 - 2014-11-02 18:09:46 UTC
lord xavier wrote:
Medclones have never been a deterrent to PVP.

Not sure how you can be from 2005 and actually believe that. Cause nothing is further from the truth than that.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2014-11-02 18:12:30 UTC
xavier, those totals are several monthly subscriptions of PLEX per month, just to play. and that's a lot of PVE. have you worked out whether you can support 1 character's PVP with just that account? also, what if I don't want to get burned out over PVE.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#67 - 2014-11-02 18:35:45 UTC
It seems to be that most people consider it a good mechanic that there are consequences for stupidity in this game.

So why is it that we see this aversion to paying a substantial price for being ******** enough to get podded? If you've been playing long enough to have a 2b ISK clone, then you've been playing long enough to not lose it very often, in my opinion.

No changes to clone cost needed.

Mr Epeen Cool
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2014-11-02 18:55:18 UTC
there you have it folks, nothing to see here, thread's closed. Thanks for stopping in, what took you so long?

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#69 - 2014-11-02 19:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
Mr Epeen wrote:
It seems to be that most people consider it a good mechanic that there are consequences for stupidity in this game.

So why is it that we see this aversion to paying a substantial price for being ******** enough to get podded? If you've been playing long enough to have a 2b ISK clone, then you've been playing long enough to not lose it very often, in my opinion.

No changes to clone cost needed.

Mr Epeen Cool

Because some people play in an area of space where getting podded after you lose your ship is sometimes pretty much inevitable.

In short, you have no ******* clue what you're talking about, as usual.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2014-11-02 19:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
hah. exactly what I was thinking. The fact that what is being called "stupidity" is really a necessity. The reasons for killing a pod or not killing a pod in a bubble are mainly to eject the pilot from grid or keep them there depending on the situation. I don't think it's in anyone's priorities to cause someone an ISK hit when shooting a pod--there are simply more pressing things like primaries to worry about.

I'll give mr epeen the benefit of a doubt because GD, but a misfire is still a misfire.

*the. benefit of the doubt.

the attitude that dying is a mistake is literally risk aversion via stigmatizing it. as far as I know, killing and dying is something CCP would like to promote. you know, fun. med clone costs go nowhere, and are an irrelevant tax on PVP. The issue is a character can easily cost more than the T2 frigate it is piloting.

That high SP character who had more thrilling days in frigates, despite being able to pilot them perfectly, can't be caught flying them anymore. once or twice out of necessity, sure, but consistently is out of the question. 25million ISK hull, 60 million ISK pod, compounded infinitely.

more realistically, 4 times a day. 4 undockings in a day for a quarter billion ISK just in med clone costs.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#71 - 2014-11-02 19:46:25 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
It seems to be that most people consider it a good mechanic that there are consequences for stupidity in this game.

So why is it that we see this aversion to paying a substantial price for being ******** enough to get podded? If you've been playing long enough to have a 2b ISK clone, then you've been playing long enough to not lose it very often, in my opinion.

No changes to clone cost needed.

Mr Epeen Cool

Because some people play in an area of space where getting podded after you lose your ship is sometimes pretty much inevitable.


True. But since high sec (the most likely place to be podded) doesn't tend to have a lot of 100M SP capital characters in it, the losses due to podding are pretty light.

The expensive clones are mostly safe in bluesec.

Mr Epeen Cool
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#72 - 2014-11-02 19:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
You don't need to fly capitals to rack up 100M SP.

And if you're PVPing, it doesn't matter if you're in "bluesec" or NPC null, it's still a pretty similar story. CFC members lose pods all the time, from newbies to competent players alike.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2014-11-02 19:51:56 UTC
epeen. you're misinterpreting the figures. a lot happens in highsec because that's where a lot of assets stay, due to risk averse and I don't want to lose my pod mentality. un-**** your logic.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#74 - 2014-11-02 22:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
So when I take long breaks from the game, I unsub and don't bother to train, as a result I've only around 50 something mil SPs on a 2007 char. I was thinking that I'd buy a long sub and not waste all that time when they bring in the eternal skill queue, but I'm thinking I may not bother now in case I want to take this character into null. At what point should I just stop training altogether ?

Never thought I'd see SPs as a hindrance, but after reading this thread Ugh
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2014-11-02 22:43:16 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
It seems to be that most people consider it a good mechanic that there are consequences for stupidity in this game.

So why is it that we see this aversion to paying a substantial price for being ******** enough to get podded? If you've been playing long enough to have a 2b ISK clone, then you've been playing long enough to not lose it very often, in my opinion.

No changes to clone cost needed.

Mr Epeen Cool

Because some people play in an area of space where getting podded after you lose your ship is sometimes pretty much inevitable.

there are areas where it's almost impossible to lose your pod. Why not move there is you cannot handle consequences of your place?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2014-11-02 23:17:15 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
So when I take long breaks from the game, I unsub and don't bother to train, as a result I've only around 50 something mil SPs on a 2007 char. I was thinking that I'd buy a long sub and not waste all that time when they bring in the eternal skill queue, but I'm thinking I may not bother now in case I want to take this character into null. At what point should I just stop training altogether ?

Never thought I'd see SPs as a hindrance, but after reading this thread Ugh

that's also one of the ugly things about unlimited skill queue. The best thing is plan what a character will fly, and stop there. But that takes experience to do, and CCP has done nothing to warn against the unplayability of a high SP character.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#77 - 2014-11-02 23:23:32 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
So when I take long breaks from the game, I unsub and don't bother to train, as a result I've only around 50 something mil SPs on a 2007 char. I was thinking that I'd buy a long sub and not waste all that time when they bring in the eternal skill queue, but I'm thinking I may not bother now in case I want to take this character into null. At what point should I just stop training altogether ?

Never thought I'd see SPs as a hindrance, but after reading this thread Ugh

that's also one of the ugly things about unlimited skill queue. The best thing is plan what a character will fly, and stop there. But that takes experience to do, and CCP has done nothing to warn against the unplayability of a high SP character.


I never realised "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" actually included your empty pod ... Maybe the saying should be re-written, "don't train what you can't afford to insure"
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#78 - 2014-11-02 23:46:47 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
But that takes experience to do, and CCP has done nothing to warn against the unplayability of a high SP character.


It's not that the character is unplayable. It's that the owner of the character is too risk averse to undock with it. And then whines on the forum that CCP is at fault for allowing them to train it.

Twisted.

Mr Epeen Cool
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2014-11-03 01:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
if I never undocked, I wouldn't have an issue with hemorrhaging med clone ISK.

mr epeen Lol

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2014-11-03 01:46:14 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
I have a thread open in Assembly Hall, which is a little brash, but it's over an issue I unsubbed 3/4 of my accounts over. with a gang of nearly 1.3 Billion SP that can be welped at once, at the cost of half a PLEX to replace med clones, it's simply a bad idea.

Suck it up. CCP should remove clone coverage all together, all ships should cause loss of SP very much like a T3 crusier when the ship goes pop, smaller ships cause greater loss of SP while bigger ships offer greater "protection" for the hitpoint trade off, and the only trade off is the isk involved for the price of the hull or the price of the pod (clone coverage).

Fly cheap with less SP or fly expensive with more skill points for that hitpoint buffer + DPS a battleship/cap gives you, risk the isk or lose the SP.....cause your entire complaint reeks of risk aversion once a limit has been reached that a human psyche cannot tolerate anymore; I distinctly remember Goons slamming Hulks into space dust a few years back and what would you know....you are a Goon complaining that suddenly it "costs to much" to fly a ship yet hulks were getting damn expensive while Goons manipulated the market. Suddenly clone costs are getting too high, but you are probably dying more often then making the income to replace it....sounds like poor playing ability. HTFU and fly what you can afford, pod included which stores the back up of your skill points.

Like I said, risk the isk or risk the skill points.....both should be risked. Sounds fair, there isn't one cost valued in isk....there is just the value of RISK.

Hell, the entire death of a clone sounds like the solution to your problem....CCP just needs to allow the ability to remove a section of the skill points from the main pilot and distribute to another "clone" .....now your clone is "cheaper", but its going to cost more since you will not be immortal Twisted


+1 for this idea. It's sensible.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices