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In simplest terms, what is wrong with EVE

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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#701 - 2014-11-02 02:02:00 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


We're not talking about my vision, we're talking about the original vision for EVE in the first place.


The original vision for EVE was a fully interactive science fiction simulation. This in no way stopped at flying in space. CCP's vision included not only walking in stations as a core mechanic, but also planetary flight and many other interesting immersive ideas.

I waited for years to see the realization of that dream. Sadly, the nearest we got was 'asshats in space' and a room with a couch.

Mr Epeen Cool


Indeed, agree 100%, I would have loved to have seen all this properly implemented in the EVE sandbox.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#702 - 2014-11-02 02:13:24 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
I keep a modicum of faith that it can grow outside of its niche (as CCP never messed up expanding PvE because they never expanded PvE), but so far the odds are 5:1 in favor of death over expansion beyond the niche.


If EVE changes to be more inclusive, it is no longer EVE, so it's dead anyway. If it EXPANDS to be more inclusive, however, it can still be EVE, but with something else added on. It's the same difference between Ferrari changing what it makes entirely from fast exotic sports cars to family saloons and wagons, where they cut out the exotic audience, or continuing production on the exotics but ADDING family saloons and wagons, whereby they continue to attract exotic customers but also attract new customers.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#703 - 2014-11-02 03:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
CCP growing the game from a single account and training into multi-training for RL cash and bots that never get cleaned out even when reported, and CCP allowing the use of some automation script programs that are by definition botting. Simplest terms.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
Aeon Plex wrote:

Ask yourself though, when the majority of people that come into this game as newbies get treated like crap, (I have been treated like crap plenty more times than this in EVE) and for no reason, and leave, can you blame them? And can you see any future in a game like that? Any real value?

Whatever, I'll buy another ship, but how much longer can a game like this really last? I've talked with ppl on TS about this, and they are just as worried about the serious lack of new blood in EVE.


Amen to this. There really should be severe consequences to all fighting in highsec, more than just a loss of a ship. and an insignificant sec status drop. Wardecs need to go bye bye too. They are the equivalent to the government allowing criminal activity against others for no reason at all. In either context it is an affront to fundamental fairness and civility. If you want to fight people take your bullshit to low/null sec. Allowing that boorishness in highsec to go unpunshed is what turns people off from this game.


No, this is simply wrong, nobody gets 'turned off' EVE that wasn't already going to get turned off. Allowing PVP to continue in highsec is what filters out the weak from this game, the slackjawed carebears that can't handle a little competition from intelligent people instead of AI. It's because of that that EVE as it is may fail, because the console generation it's attracting these days is basically bred weak by virtue of the easiness of today's games. It may have to become something else if CCP wishes to keep making money from it, but without PVP in highsec, EVE will be EVE in name only. The EVE I subscribed for will be long gone.

But every person that quits EVE because of PVP is EVE working exactly as intended. EVE is a PVP game, after all, and whether you subscribe to it knowing that, or not knowing that, is entirely on you. When you play a game of chess, do you change the rules to make it easier on you, or do you play it as intended? You don't change the game, you learn it, and adapt to it, or you weren't really playing the game to begin with.



Because people who play MMO's do it to not interact with other people, or be challenged by intelligent opposition, right? Because people that prefer multiplayer FPS over single player are going to complain about PvP in a fair environment, right?

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Race Rocket
Doomheim
#704 - 2014-11-02 03:58:54 UTC
I completely agree with you.

CCP will have to create a balanced PVP solo mechanic once games like Star citizen or Elite get going, and their player base shrinks. CCP allows far too many griefer's to play this game and should create a duel that restricts variables as you requested, such as duel to hull only, or armor, etc... basically a setting when you set up the duel that restricts the fight to that variable.
That way you can adjust your play styles, meet new players and assure a balance. They do it for contracts, why not honor.


The PVP in this game is a total joke, just exploit after exploit and more boring than PVE.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#705 - 2014-11-02 04:17:36 UTC
Removed an off topic post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#706 - 2014-11-02 06:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Race Rocket wrote:
I completely agree with you.

CCP will have to create a balanced PVP solo mechanic once games like Star citizen or Elite get going, and their player base shrinks. CCP allows far too many griefer's to play this game and should create a duel that restricts variables as you requested, such as duel to hull only, or armor, etc... basically a setting when you set up the duel that restricts the fight to that variable.
That way you can adjust your play styles, meet new players and assure a balance. They do it for contracts, why not honor.


The PVP in this game is a total joke, just exploit after exploit and more boring than PVE.






If you have found an exploit in PVP, please file a petition to CCP customer support about it, because exploiting the game is against the rules.

And if you're looking for 'honour', then yes, you are playing the wrong game. EVE is primarily player-driven, the mechanics and content just create the sandbox and tools with which we create our own balance. As a solo PVP'er who does quite well myself, I can tell you that if you can't accept the risks and challenges that come with solo PVP in this single-shard sandbox MMO, which are high, then you are doing it wrong. The PVP in this game is excellent, lrn2play, or **** off to star citizen.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#707 - 2014-11-02 06:48:35 UTC
Needs more cowbell.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#708 - 2014-11-02 07:25:14 UTC
Race Rocket wrote:
I completely agree with you.

CCP will have to create a balanced PVP solo mechanic once games like Star citizen or Elite get going, and their player base shrinks. CCP allows far too many griefer's to play this game and should create a duel that restricts variables as you requested, such as duel to hull only, or armor, etc... basically a setting when you set up the duel that restricts the fight to that variable.
That way you can adjust your play styles, meet new players and assure a balance. They do it for contracts, why not honor.


The PVP in this game is a total joke, just exploit after exploit and more boring than PVE.

EVE IS about the unfair fights and one's ability to avoid them when they see they're going to lose versus their ability to push when they see they're going to win.

If you want fair, structured fights, there' s a multitude of PvP games out there that suit your wishes.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#709 - 2014-11-02 09:46:47 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
I keep a modicum of faith that it can grow outside of its niche (as CCP never messed up expanding PvE because they never expanded PvE), but so far the odds are 5:1 in favor of death over expansion beyond the niche.


If EVE changes to be more inclusive, it is no longer EVE, so it's dead anyway. If it EXPANDS to be more inclusive, however, it can still be EVE, but with something else added on. It's the same difference between Ferrari changing what it makes entirely from fast exotic sports cars to family saloons and wagons, where they cut out the exotic audience, or continuing production on the exotics but ADDING family saloons and wagons, whereby they continue to attract exotic customers but also attract new customers.


That's the whole point. You know, Lamborghini started up manufacturing tractors...

There's many people playing EVE whose interests don't include exploding player stuff, and CCP has been ignoring that for years. They (and almost 99% of players) see that attitude as a liability

"Uh, uh, he doesn't wants to come beat the living lights out of us! He's a misfit freak!"

No my friend, no. Maybe he wants to put some laxative in your breakfast cereal. Maybe he wants to bribe your landowner to cut your water for three days...

There's more than boxing in the world. There's also chessboxing, and even chess.
Sky Marshal
State War Academy
Caldari State
#710 - 2014-11-02 10:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sky Marshal
What is wrong ? Hum...

It is not about the grieving aspect of EVE, I think that new players would be able to go over it... if there wasn't any killmails. After all, people hate lose, and so refuse to have a bad history. It wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't permanent or if it was under the control of the said player, but syndication and API don't permit that. The solution is simple : CCP should give an option to hide the loser name in a lossmail (it would be a trade-off : your name would be hidden in a killmail too) but the corp/alliance name should remain in all cases (for obvious reasons). I think that PVP would get a real boost and it would attract players who was reluctant until then because there is a way to not have to suffer of a permanent record, until they think they are ready.

Some few others things :

- Long history of bad nerfs and bad choices : It affects the reputation of the game. When you hear about WIS, or the "Fix what isn't broken" standard CCP policy, or if you encounter a bittervet who will explain why this game is doomed, why a new player would remain into EVE ? I do hope that CCP will take advantage of his new addon policy to stop that and rebuild his reputation.

- Plex prices : People who have time but low wallet can play with Plex, but their price is raising, it make it more and more difficult to buy them. The problem is the IRL price who don't make any sense : 20 € instead of 15 € like a standard subscription ? No wonder that the ISK price can only go up.

- No translations or too long to release them : Seriously, is it so hard to release spanish/italian/etc ? The french translation would be a good thing FIVE YEARS AGO while there was still the TCF alliance and stuff who could do advertising to attract new players, not today as it is too late. Just forget the modules and release multiple translations already.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#711 - 2014-11-02 11:46:24 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


That's the whole point. You know, Lamborghini started up manufacturing tractors...

There's many people playing EVE whose interests don't include exploding player stuff, and CCP has been ignoring that for years. They (and almost 99% of players) see that attitude as a liability

"Uh, uh, he doesn't wants to come beat the living lights out of us! He's a misfit freak!"

No my friend, no. Maybe he wants to put some laxative in your breakfast cereal. Maybe he wants to bribe your landowner to cut your water for three days...

There's more than boxing in the world. There's also chessboxing, and even chess.


This attitude is actually pretty standard, but the fact is that it's really just a dodge. I have little interest in exploding player stuff and the game, CCP and the game's community treat me just fine. Being a misfit freak has nothing to do with whether or not you want to engage in 'pew pew' pvp or not.

It has everything to do with the personality of the player, and many times people have personalities incompatible with this game (but rather than understand that, they think it's the game's fault). THIS is what I and others post about, not whether or not you wanna wag your epeen by shooting other folks. It's not PVP vs PVE it's "players that actually like what EVE is" vs the "oh, EVE could be so much better IF ONLY... and EVE better hurry because X new game is coming!" crowd.

Too many posters try to hide behind that "you just want me to play your way/you just want easy kills" lie to salve their own egos, they don't know how to deal with the fact that their are many of us who are PVE focused players and feel the exact same way about the game as many of (but by no means all of) the PVPrs do. I say not all because some pvp're are worse carebears than actual carebears are.

No one (that actually likes EVE) wants EVE to fail. No one wants CCP to broke. No one wants EVE to not change and Evolve, but some of us what the CORE of EVE it's spirit, what it means to stay intact and the "expand to a wider audience" crap has never been compatible with that.

EVE should be the best high quality niche genre game possible, it should appeal firstly and fore-mostly to the kinds of people who already like it and it's concept. Going beyond that would water down the game, burn off it's edge in favor of the nasty blandness the rest of the game (especially MMO) world has fallen in to.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#712 - 2014-11-02 13:38:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Jenn aSide wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


That's the whole point. You know, Lamborghini started up manufacturing tractors...

There's many people playing EVE whose interests don't include exploding player stuff, and CCP has been ignoring that for years. They (and almost 99% of players) see that attitude as a liability

"Uh, uh, he doesn't wants to come beat the living lights out of us! He's a misfit freak!"

No my friend, no. Maybe he wants to put some laxative in your breakfast cereal. Maybe he wants to bribe your landowner to cut your water for three days...

There's more than boxing in the world. There's also chessboxing, and even chess.


This attitude is actually pretty standard, but the fact is that it's really just a dodge. I have little interest in exploding player stuff and the game, CCP and the game's community treat me just fine. Being a misfit freak has nothing to do with whether or not you want to engage in 'pew pew' pvp or not.

It has everything to do with the personality of the player, and many times people have personalities incompatible with this game (but rather than understand that, they think it's the game's fault). THIS is what I and others post about, not whether or not you wanna wag your epeen by shooting other folks. It's not PVP vs PVE it's "players that actually like what EVE is" vs the "oh, EVE could be so much better IF ONLY... and EVE better hurry because X new game is coming!" crowd.

Too many posters try to hide behind that "you just want me to play your way/you just want easy kills" lie to salve their own egos, they don't know how to deal with the fact that their are many of us who are PVE focused players and feel the exact same way about the game as many of (but by no means all of) the PVPrs do. I say not all because some pvp're are worse carebears than actual carebears are.

No one (that actually likes EVE) wants EVE to fail. No one wants CCP to broke. No one wants EVE to not change and Evolve, but some of us what the CORE of EVE it's spirit, what it means to stay intact and the "expand to a wider audience" crap has never been compatible with that.

EVE should be the best high quality niche genre game possible, it should appeal firstly and fore-mostly to the kinds of people who already like it and it's concept. Going beyond that would water down the game, burn off it's edge in favor of the nasty blandness the rest of the game (especially MMO) world has fallen in to.


All that fails against a single fact: who is paying the game?

Which boils down to who is buying PLEX from CCP, and who is paying subscriptions rather than buying PLEX from players.

And, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that the people doing that it's not the die hard veterans -all in all, didn't 40% of all players end up being "raven levelers"? Why don't give them something simialr but better... more EVE... rather than go head over heels with "the essence" so the 10% of retention becomes, woo-hoo, a whole 15%? Do you think EVE can be sustainable without 80% of the people currently paying for it?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#713 - 2014-11-02 14:51:34 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


All that fails against a single fact: who is paying the game?

Which boils down to who is buying PLEX from CCP, and who is paying subscriptions rather than buying PLEX from players.

And, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that the people doing that it's not the die hard veterans -all in all, didn't 40% of all players end up being "raven levelers"? Why don't give them something simialr but better... more EVE... rather than go head over heels with "the essence" so the 10% of retention becomes, woo-hoo, a whole 15%? Do you think EVE can be sustainable without 80% of the people currently paying for it?



You talk of EVE as it if has already exceeded the average lifespan of a western mmo. I find that the majority of people who obsess about "sustainability" are the ones who are trying to use the issue as a wedge to get CCP to make the game into what they want. I've been here 7 years and don't see EVE dying any time soon. However, if it does, big whoop, it's a video game, no matter how much I love it.

The preception that CCP isn't giving anything to some large group of people while giving all this stuff to pvp types is false.
When I started, much of the PVE activities that exist and pay out didn't even exist or existed in a different way. LVL 5s were new, their was no faction warfare (thus no FW missions), null anomalies were these randomly spawning things , many anoms (like the named hubs) and signature complexes we have now didn't exist, Incursions didn't exist, Wormholes (and thus wormhole PVE) didn't exist. Marauders didn't exist, missions were a pain to run because of the lack of UI information, mining ships were new (before people were mining with other ships) etc etc etc.

As a PVE player, i've never had so much to do or had so much fun in EVE as I have now, still trying to get a grip on burner missions.

One last thing is that you don't seem to understand that PLEx bring CCP more cash per purchase than a sub does lol.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#714 - 2014-11-02 15:08:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


EVE should be the best high quality niche genre game possible, it should appeal firstly and fore-mostly to the kinds of people who already like it and it's concept. Going beyond that would water down the game, burn off it's edge in favor of the nasty blandness the rest of the game (especially MMO) world has fallen in to.


In context of titles like WoW or Rift your stance is understandable and more or less correct, but there is also the other side, represented by titles like Ryzom or the first iteration of D3, which are too exclusive.

Lets not forget we are aleady in a niche^3 (mmo, space, ffa pvp), it should atleast be very carefully weighted if we really want to have the "players being mean to eachother because they can and it is profitable" niche to be included, and how strong.

I do really think this is more a nrds vs normal paranoia concept, maybe a bit more egocentric in this thread.
Justice Zeta
Doomheim
#715 - 2014-11-02 15:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Justice Zeta
It's funny when people expect honour in a computer game. It's just pixels ffs. This isn't pistols at dawn.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#716 - 2014-11-02 15:35:07 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


All that fails against a single fact: who is paying the game?

Which boils down to who is buying PLEX from CCP, and who is paying subscriptions rather than buying PLEX from players.

And, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that the people doing that it's not the die hard veterans -all in all, didn't 40% of all players end up being "raven levelers"? Why don't give them something simialr but better... more EVE... rather than go head over heels with "the essence" so the 10% of retention becomes, woo-hoo, a whole 15%? Do you think EVE can be sustainable without 80% of the people currently paying for it?



You talk of EVE as it if has already exceeded the average lifespan of a western mmo. I find that the majority of people who obsess about "sustainability" are the ones who are trying to use the issue as a wedge to get CCP to make the game into what they want. I've been here 7 years and don't see EVE dying any time soon. However, if it does, big whoop, it's a video game, no matter how much I love it.

The preception that CCP isn't giving anything to some large group of people while giving all this stuff to pvp types is false.
When I started, much of the PVE activities that exist and pay out didn't even exist or existed in a different way. LVL 5s were new, their was no faction warfare (thus no FW missions), null anomalies were these randomly spawning things , many anoms (like the named hubs) and signature complexes we have now didn't exist, Incursions didn't exist, Wormholes (and thus wormhole PVE) didn't exist. Marauders didn't exist, missions were a pain to run because of the lack of UI information, mining ships were new (before people were mining with other ships) etc etc etc.

As a PVE player, i've never had so much to do or had so much fun in EVE as I have now, still trying to get a grip on burner missions.

One last thing is that you don't seem to understand that PLEx bring CCP more cash per purchase than a sub does lol.


Who purchases PLEX from CCP, and why? The reason to spend 18 on what gives the same game time as 15, it's to get something else... say, ISK.

So, who buys those "ISK tokens" legally from CCP? New players? Veteran players...?
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#717 - 2014-11-02 16:30:26 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


All that fails against a single fact: who is paying the game?

Which boils down to who is buying PLEX from CCP, and who is paying subscriptions rather than buying PLEX from players.

And, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that the people doing that it's not the die hard veterans -all in all, didn't 40% of all players end up being "raven levelers"? Why don't give them something simialr but better... more EVE... rather than go head over heels with "the essence" so the 10% of retention becomes, woo-hoo, a whole 15%? Do you think EVE can be sustainable without 80% of the people currently paying for it?



You talk of EVE as it if has already exceeded the average lifespan of a western mmo. I find that the majority of people who obsess about "sustainability" are the ones who are trying to use the issue as a wedge to get CCP to make the game into what they want. I've been here 7 years and don't see EVE dying any time soon. However, if it does, big whoop, it's a video game, no matter how much I love it.

The preception that CCP isn't giving anything to some large group of people while giving all this stuff to pvp types is false.
When I started, much of the PVE activities that exist and pay out didn't even exist or existed in a different way. LVL 5s were new, their was no faction warfare (thus no FW missions), null anomalies were these randomly spawning things , many anoms (like the named hubs) and signature complexes we have now didn't exist, Incursions didn't exist, Wormholes (and thus wormhole PVE) didn't exist. Marauders didn't exist, missions were a pain to run because of the lack of UI information, mining ships were new (before people were mining with other ships) etc etc etc.

As a PVE player, i've never had so much to do or had so much fun in EVE as I have now, still trying to get a grip on burner missions.

One last thing is that you don't seem to understand that PLEx bring CCP more cash per purchase than a sub does lol.


Who purchases PLEX from CCP, and why? The reason to spend 18 on what gives the same game time as 15, it's to get something else... say, ISK.

So, who buys those "ISK tokens" legally from CCP? New players? Veteran players...?




Well, the vet players like to brag how they haven't paid a cent for the game in years.

So I would guess that the new player's are buying the plex.

So what you are left with are vets who don't contribute financially to the game making life miserable for the new players.

So the new players leave (and the vets say we didn't need that carebear anyway and all rejoice and celebrate)

But they also take the money with them and CCP loses out.


CCP...I applaud giving the power to the player base but at some point you have to realize that your current stable of bitter vets are going to drive it under if you leave it as is. And they love to preach the cycle of abuse thing as defense. I was treated this way so I have to treat everyone else like this.

For the love of all that is decent CCP......Stop the cycle of abuse being perpetrated by the vets.
Nevil Oscillator
#718 - 2014-11-02 17:46:02 UTC
I'm not sure about taking issue with players actions to CCP, players form groups for mutual advantage, anything they do is either working for them or it isn't. That includes knowing every aspect of the game in detail to catch out newbies I guess. If that is the most profitable way to use that knowledge, I am not so sure. So go ahead and bet on it.
Keno Skir
#719 - 2014-11-02 18:58:20 UTC
I like the way eve is (was). Even as a new player bei9ng victimised myself, i thoroughly enjoyed the experience and the dark scaryness of it all. Without the **** players out there trying to screw me EvE would have been boring and i'd have left ages ago.

Grow a pair, this is the way things should be.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#720 - 2014-11-02 19:09:16 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
I like the way eve is (was). Even as a new player bei9ng victimised myself, i thoroughly enjoyed the experience and the dark scaryness of it all. Without the **** players out there trying to screw me EvE would have been boring and i'd have left ages ago.

Grow a pair, this is the way things should be.

actually the op posted in the thread again and it was an enlightened and encouraging post.

yeah your right though, for the first yer of play i was prey but i fell in love with the edgy fear that new eden instils

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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