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Are Pirate Cruisers primarily kitey ships?
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Anthar Peva
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-11-02 03:42:36 UTC
As the title says, are they?
Cynabal - 10% bonus to projectile falloff/level of Gal Cruiser.
Ashimmu - Not really a kitey ship? It does have 20% bonus to Web range though/level of Min Cruiser
Gila - No bonuses for being a kitey ship.
Orthrus - 10% Warp Scram/Warp Disruptor range bonus/level of Gal Cruiser
Phantasm - No bonuses for being a kitey ship.
Vigilant - 10% bonus to hybrid falloff/level of gal cruiser
Stratios - 50% bonus to MET optimal/Role bonus.
I'm asking because I want to brawl using pirate cruisers (mainly the vigilant) but I don't really want to go against the bonuses of a ship.
Danjun Zahid
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-11-02 03:55:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Danjun Zahid
, the phantasm is mostly used as a kitey ship because it is amarr and they use scorch to hit optimal at long ranges, gila can kite using minmatar drones, orthus has ability to fire heavy missiles at extreme speeds, vigilant is just like the thorax which can be railed but isnt, stratios is an exploration ship and the ashimmu is most often used as a support/brawler. all the pirate ships have the capabilities to be used as kitey and as brawlers, its just your preference/skill that fills in the rest.
Anthar Peva
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-11-02 03:59:43 UTC
Danjun Zahid wrote:
, the phantasm is mostly used as a kitey ship because it is amarr and they use scorch to hit optimal at long ranges, gila can kite using minmatar drones, orthus has ability to fire heavy missiles at extreme speeds, vigilant is just like the thorax which can be railed but isnt, stratios is an exploration ship and the ashimmu is most often used as a support/brawler. all the pirate ships have the capabilities to be used as kitey and as brawlers, its just your preference/skill that fills in the rest.

Okay. Thanks.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#4 - 2014-11-02 06:48:08 UTC
I think they are mostly flown kitey as they can get away with more vs blobs that way. inside web/scram range it is much easier for bad things to happen. although when it comes to the vigilant hopefully the bad things are happening to the other guy Pirate

also falloff is generally just a good all around bonus for blasters.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-11-02 10:59:36 UTC
Sorry but brawling is the DUMB way to fight. Why ? It means you win or lose the fight before it starts. There is no space for tactics. So you usually will only get ganks with brawling ships, because compwetent people will NOT engage you if you are a brawler and they know their ship will lose in a brawl.


Vigilant is mostly brawling. It uses the super web to HOLD any target from escaping. That is THE bonus of the ship, the rest is almost irrelevant..


But you will not get much real fights in brawly setups and scenarios.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jessica Duranin
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-11-02 12:09:08 UTC
People just mostly fly the ones that you can kite with because "oh noez! I might lose my spaceship if I actually commit to a fight".
Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#7 - 2014-11-02 12:38:23 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sorry but brawling is the DUMB way to fight. Why ? It means you win or lose the fight before it starts. There is no space for tactics. So you usually will only get ganks with brawling ships, because compwetent people will NOT engage you if you are a brawler and they know their ship will lose in a brawl.
Vigilant is mostly brawling. It uses the super web to HOLD any target from escaping. That is THE bonus of the ship, the rest is almost irrelevant..
But you will not get much real fights in brawly setups and scenarios.



So, so much fail in this comment. Brawlers can be a blast to fly (forgive the pun), but you actually have to know what you're doing. Kagura must be the 'orbit, press F1 to win' type. That doesn't always work, and it takes TACTICS to win with a brawler against these miscreants. I've caught a score of condors and slicers in a catalyst simply by slingshotting into scram range.

That being said, brawling ships get plenty of fights from pilots who think they can outrun or out track them. Ergo, tracking and raw speed, as well as knowing just when to overheat that prop, are imperative to winning with a brawler. Armor plates and resistance rigs slow a ship down, so active reps are typically preferred.

Bringing a Vigilant out in LowSec, especially solo, is garunteed to get you fights. The prize of that shiny kill mail will lure all kinds of pilots to Yolo into you. Some of them will be very easy to kill... Others are likely to eat a Vigilant for lunch. I'd recommend having at least a scout/bait to find targets and provide a warp in right on top of them. Kill fast, loot, and move on before someone gets the drop on ya.
Damen Apol
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-11-02 14:04:41 UTC
Fenris Orion wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sorry but brawling is the DUMB way to fight. Why ? It means you win or lose the fight before it starts. There is no space for tactics. So you usually will only get ganks with brawling ships, because compwetent people will NOT engage you if you are a brawler and they know their ship will lose in a brawl.
Vigilant is mostly brawling. It uses the super web to HOLD any target from escaping. That is THE bonus of the ship, the rest is almost irrelevant..
But you will not get much real fights in brawly setups and scenarios.



Bringing a Vigilant out in LowSec, especially solo, is garunteed to get you fights. The prize of that shiny kill mail will lure all kinds of pilots to Yolo into you. Some of them will be very easy to kill... Others are likely to eat a Vigilant for lunch. I'd recommend having at least a scout/bait to find targets and provide a warp in right on top of them. Kill fast, loot, and move on before someone gets the drop on ya.


So you're agreeing that the fight is decided before the fight happens when you're brawling?

Good to know.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-11-02 16:45:15 UTC
Damen Apol wrote:
Fenris Orion wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sorry but brawling is the DUMB way to fight. Why ? It means you win or lose the fight before it starts. There is no space for tactics. So you usually will only get ganks with brawling ships, because compwetent people will NOT engage you if you are a brawler and they know their ship will lose in a brawl.
Vigilant is mostly brawling. It uses the super web to HOLD any target from escaping. That is THE bonus of the ship, the rest is almost irrelevant..
But you will not get much real fights in brawly setups and scenarios.



Bringing a Vigilant out in LowSec, especially solo, is garunteed to get you fights. The prize of that shiny kill mail will lure all kinds of pilots to Yolo into you. Some of them will be very easy to kill... Others are likely to eat a Vigilant for lunch. I'd recommend having at least a scout/bait to find targets and provide a warp in right on top of them. Kill fast, loot, and move on before someone gets the drop on ya.


So you're agreeing that the fight is decided before the fight happens when you're brawling?

Good to know.


I think you're taking the killboards way too seriously if you cannot find any fun in using a brawly ship to see how far it goes.
Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#10 - 2014-11-02 17:43:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Fenris Orion
Damen Apol wrote:
Fenris Orion wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sorry but brawling is the DUMB way to fight. Why ? It means you win or lose the fight before it starts. There is no space for tactics. So you usually will only get ganks with brawling ships, because compwetent people will NOT engage you if you are a brawler and they know their ship will lose in a brawl.
Vigilant is mostly brawling. It uses the super web to HOLD any target from escaping. That is THE bonus of the ship, the rest is almost irrelevant..
But you will not get much real fights in brawly setups and scenarios.



Bringing a Vigilant out in LowSec, especially solo, is garunteed to get you fights. The prize of that shiny kill mail will lure all kinds of pilots to Yolo into you. Some of them will be very easy to kill... Others are likely to eat a Vigilant for lunch. I'd recommend having at least a scout/bait to find targets and provide a warp in right on top of them. Kill fast, loot, and move on before someone gets the drop on ya.


So you're agreeing that the fight is decided before the fight happens when you're brawling?

Good to know.


You completely missed the first part of my statement. A brawler always wants to land on his opponents face. Yes, this is optimal. No, this does not determine the outcome of the fight. A Stabber Fleet might be a faster ship with longer ranged guns, but a competently flown Thorax/Vigilant/Diemos can easily slingshot either into or away from the SFI once the engagement is on.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#11 - 2014-11-02 17:54:56 UTC
Danjun Zahid wrote:
, the phantasm is mostly used as a kitey ship because it is amarr and they use scorch to hit optimal at long ranges, gila can kite using minmatar drones, orthus has ability to fire heavy missiles at extreme speeds, vigilant is just like the thorax which can be railed but isnt, stratios is an exploration ship and the ashimmu is most often used as a support/brawler. all the pirate ships have the capabilities to be used as kitey and as brawlers, its just your preference/skill that fills in the rest.


Yes!

And the current pvp meta is kiting. Very small gang warfare cannot be done with brawling and kiting has been strong since EVE went online.
Kiting also lets you engange multiple targets at once. Hence why matari ships were considered the strongest ones before tiericide.

For most of the combat and attack cruisers and battlecruisers and as Kagura already said you can do both with them, it is not something that is limited to pirate faction ships alone.

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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#12 - 2014-11-02 17:57:22 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sorry but brawling is the DUMB way to fight. Why ? It means you win or lose the fight before it starts. There is no space for tactics. So you usually will only get ganks with brawling ships, because compwetent people will NOT engage you if you are a brawler and they know their ship will lose in a brawl.


Vigilant is mostly brawling. It uses the super web to HOLD any target from escaping. That is THE bonus of the ship, the rest is almost irrelevant..


But you will not get much real fights in brawly setups and scenarios.

lol, nope.
committing to a scrap=/=no tactics.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Damen Apol
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-11-02 18:48:05 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Damen Apol wrote:
Fenris Orion wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sorry but brawling is the DUMB way to fight. Why ? It means you win or lose the fight before it starts. There is no space for tactics. So you usually will only get ganks with brawling ships, because compwetent people will NOT engage you if you are a brawler and they know their ship will lose in a brawl.
Vigilant is mostly brawling. It uses the super web to HOLD any target from escaping. That is THE bonus of the ship, the rest is almost irrelevant..
But you will not get much real fights in brawly setups and scenarios.



Bringing a Vigilant out in LowSec, especially solo, is garunteed to get you fights. The prize of that shiny kill mail will lure all kinds of pilots to Yolo into you. Some of them will be very easy to kill... Others are likely to eat a Vigilant for lunch. I'd recommend having at least a scout/bait to find targets and provide a warp in right on top of them. Kill fast, loot, and move on before someone gets the drop on ya.


So you're agreeing that the fight is decided before the fight happens when you're brawling?

Good to know.


I think you're taking the killboards way too seriously if you cannot find any fun in using a brawly ship to see how far it goes.


I think if you check my killboard and notice a full HG snake clone loss in null-sec space you'll see how much I care about my kb.

Quote:
You completely missed the first part of my statement. A brawler always wants to land on his opponents face. Yes, this is optimal. No, this does not determine the outcome of the fight. A Stabber Fleet might be a faster ship with longer ranged guns, but a competently flown Thorax/Vigilant/Diemos can easily slingshot either into or away from the SFI once the engagement is on.


No I saw it, the post just ended with you basically ignoring your own first half and concluded that the fight is over before it starts.

Yea you could easily slingshot into or away from the SFI, but only if he's incompetent, and if you're just planning on fighting scrubs you're pretty much a scrub too.

tl;dr equally skilled brawler and kiter, brawler lands on top kiter loses, kiter has range, brawler loses.

Fight is decided before it starts. Brawling sucks, learn to PvP.
Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#14 - 2014-11-02 19:29:54 UTC
Damen Apol wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
[quote=Damen Apol][quote=Fenris Orion] I'd recommend having at least a scout/bait to find targets and provide a warp in right on top of them. Kill fast, loot, and move on before someone gets the drop on ya.


So you're agreeing that the fight is decided before the fight happens when you're brawling?
No I saw it, the post just ended with you basically ignoring your own first half and concluded that the fight is over before it starts.

Yea you could easily slingshot into or away from the SFI, but only if he's incompetent, and if you're just planning on fighting scrubs you're pretty much a scrub too.

tl;dr equally skilled brawler and kiter, brawler lands on top kiter loses, kiter has range, brawler loses.

Fight is decided before it starts. Brawling sucks, learn to PvP.



Starting the engagement with the upper hand is not the same as determining the outcome of a fight BY that advantage. Confusing the two demonstrates a severe lack of reading comprehension skills.

Brawling is fantastic, learn how to comprehend the English language a little better before making a completely circular argument to try making yourself sound smart.

Also, anyone with reasonable PVP experience knows there's a great deal of chance involved in guessing the opponents' fit properly timing certain maneuvers. That is more often the determining factor in a fight. My gang and I watched in awe the other night as a Proteus accelerated past 8,000m/s, caught, and killed an experienced interceptor pilot. X-type 100mn Microwarp drive, plus links in system.

A more reasonable example is the Omens and Caracals I've caught with the Thorax that is usually a much slower ship. Pilots with much more time in PVP than myself according to killboards. Same is true of the kitey frigates I've caught with the Catalyst.
Damen Apol
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-11-02 19:42:06 UTC
Fenris Orion wrote:
Damen Apol wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
[quote=Damen Apol][quote=Fenris Orion] I'd recommend having at least a scout/bait to find targets and provide a warp in right on top of them. Kill fast, loot, and move on before someone gets the drop on ya.


So you're agreeing that the fight is decided before the fight happens when you're brawling?
No I saw it, the post just ended with you basically ignoring your own first half and concluded that the fight is over before it starts.

Yea you could easily slingshot into or away from the SFI, but only if he's incompetent, and if you're just planning on fighting scrubs you're pretty much a scrub too.

tl;dr equally skilled brawler and kiter, brawler lands on top kiter loses, kiter has range, brawler loses.

Fight is decided before it starts. Brawling sucks, learn to PvP.



Starting the engagement with the upper hand is not the same as determining the outcome of a fight BY that advantage. Confusing the two demonstrates a severe lack of reading comprehension skills.

Brawling is fantastic, learn how to comprehend the English language a little better before making a completely circular argument to try making yourself sound smart.

Also, anyone with reasonable PVP experience knows there's a great deal of chance involved in guessing the opponents' fit properly timing certain maneuvers. That is more often the determining factor in a fight. My gang and I watched in awe the other night as a Proteus accelerated past 8,000m/s, caught, and killed an experienced interceptor pilot. X-type 100mn Microwarp drive, plus links in system.

A more reasonable example is the Omens and Caracals I've caught with the Thorax that is usually a much slower ship. Pilots with much more time in PVP than myself according to killboards. Same is true of the kitey frigates I've caught with the Catalyst.


I'm not sure that you understand a kiting ship is going to have a paper thin tank compared to a brawler, such that when a kiting ship is caught it's game over for the kiting ship. I'm also not sure you understand that a brawler caught outside of its range is going to die to anyone who knows what they're doing. I've seen three non-pirate frigates drop a lone vigilant because they caught him outside of his range.

It's pretty embarassing if that interceptor pilot couldn't heat and outrun 8km/s, especially on an obvious 100mn fit, just turn a little bit and he won't catch you at all.

More time in PvP certainly doesn't equate to more skill I hope we can recognize, you're obviously good enough to be able to outwit scrubs who think they know how to kite and are probably just hitting "orbit at 25km."
Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#16 - 2014-11-02 20:05:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Fenris Orion
Damen Apol wrote:


I'm not sure that you understand a kiting ship is going to have a paper thin tank compared to a brawler, such that when a kiting ship is caught it's game over for the kiting ship. I'm also not sure you understand that a brawler caught outside of its range is going to die to anyone who knows what they're doing. I've seen three non-pirate frigates drop a lone vigilant because they caught him outside of his range.

It's pretty embarassing if that interceptor pilot couldn't heat and outrun 8km/s, especially on an obvious 100mn fit, just turn a little bit and he won't catch you at all.

More time in PvP certainly doesn't equate to more skill I hope we can recognize, you're obviously good enough to be able to outwit scrubs who think they know how to kite and are probably just hitting "orbit at 25km."


I guess you've never fit a Caracal with a buffer tank or an Omen with a high-resist active tank and cap booster? Those are far from paper thin, and still dish out great damage if they do get caught by a scram. And I guess explaining that a kiter still has to come within point range to hold a target down, and even a kite- fit cruiser doesn't turn on a dime, is a lost cause.

And the example that three kitey frigates getting the better of a Vigilant is, to be more specific, the reason I recommended the OP operate at least with a scout. No, a cruiser is not going to catch a properly flown, kite fit frigate. I'll grant you that, but obviously that is apples to oranges.

One of my most recent solo brawl kills was a well fit rocket corax taken with a single-rep, high dps Incursus. Traditionally, not a fight I "should" have won, but there you have it. Brawling can be a ton of fun.

Edit: The Indy pilot was pointed from >50km, so we knew the Prote had faction point and links... Indy went in for tackle, Prote started accelerating away from our gang, then managed to SCRAM the Indy from ~25km. Inty was dead to drones before we saw the Protes top speed. Pretty hilarious, really. Way over a billion spent on that thing, all to kill one Malediction and run.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#17 - 2014-11-02 20:12:09 UTC
Jessica Duranin wrote:
People just mostly fly the ones that you can kite with because "oh noez! I might lose my spaceship if I actually commit to a fight".


You make it sound like it is the nano people that are cowards. In my opinion it is the people with the blob mentality you should make fun of.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#18 - 2014-11-03 04:54:01 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Jessica Duranin wrote:
People just mostly fly the ones that you can kite with because "oh noez! I might lose my spaceship if I actually commit to a fight".


You make it sound like it is the nano people that are cowards. In my opinion it is the people with the blob mentality you should make fun of.


first make fun of the blobbers
then make fun of the run away panzies kiters
then make fun of the falcon alts
then make fun of the ecm drones
then make fun of the mission runners
then make fun of the miners
then make fun of the blue doughnut
ect...

Never make fun of yourself!

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#19 - 2014-11-03 08:58:21 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:


Never make fun of yourself!

no,
always laugh at yourself.
it entitles you to laugh at everyone else much moreBlink
(but especially the the run away panzies nano kiters)

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-11-03 09:52:03 UTC
I think pirate ship are mostly used for kiting because they scale extremely well with skrimish links and/or snake implants and thus allow to engage multiple opponent wile leaving the possibility to escape if things go south.
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