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Telemortation removed: can we address medical clone costs now?

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Sol Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#21 - 2014-10-31 12:01:42 UTC
Maybe they should introduce a skill that lowers clone costs.

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2014-10-31 12:03:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Sol Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#23 - 2014-10-31 12:22:35 UTC
But when you lose your clone, you lose the implants so the costs are as usual anyway. Hey that makes CCPsense.

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Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#24 - 2014-10-31 13:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
I would probably address clone cost like this. This is a bit of give and take because we have to keep clone values up and some isk sinks going regardless.

1) Remove all costs of updating clones.
2) Remove all clone updates
3) Increase the cost to install a jump clone to 10 to 20 million isk per at a station.
4) There is no longer any skill loss when podded if not having a updated clone (removes the necessity of updating the clone itself)
5) Implants can no longer be installed or removed in space.

Skill loss is pretty pointless in the game. No one likes nor wants that stuff to occur. It also removes the need for the mandatory Medical bay in virtually every player owned nullsec system in game.

The implant ripping out before you die is a little silly, considering how everybody says "Your in a pod of goo". How exactly could you possibly remove implants?

Yea it'll hurt some peoples kill-boards. ... so.

Edit update. Each jump clone should scale with cost. First jump clone install. 10,000, second 1,000,000. Third clone is 10,000,000. 4th is 20,000,000, 5th is 50,000,000.

The sixth is 100,000,000. Seventh is 250,000,000. 8th is 500,000,000. 9th is 750,000,000. 10th clone is 1,000,000,000.

Here is the caveat. Jump clones made in a Rorqual or Titan is 0 cost.

So you make having 10 clones actually valuable, but moving them everywhere extremely costly, unless you find a friendly rorqual or Titan to produce one for you.

Basically you make a new market.

Yaay!!!!
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-10-31 13:10:58 UTC
Just remove them. There is really no point in tiered medical clones except to make people lose weeks of training because they forgot to file the right paperwork.

If tiered medclones did not already exist in the game, nobody would think it would be a good idea to introduce them now. So they aren't contributing to a positive gameplay experience.
Yourmoney Mywallet
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-10-31 13:48:56 UTC
^^ This tbh. It's the simplest solution and the one that makes the most sense. My... "best friend" is at 150 mill SP and eventually decided to roll a frig alt for PvP. Surely "moar alts" can't be the answer.
rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-10-31 14:07:43 UTC
Jur Tissant wrote:
Just remove them. There is really no point in tiered medical clones except to make people lose weeks of training because they forgot to file the right paperwork.

If tiered medclones did not already exist in the game, nobody would think it would be a good idea to introduce them now. So they aren't contributing to a positive gameplay experience.


I think it's worse than that. When you come to train new players they're just another thing that are a pain in the arse. You're absolutely right on the gameplay aspect, purely because it's a forced gameplay mechanic.

I'd much prefer a different approach: Modular pods.

A pod will have one slot. By default, every pod has a 'clone' module which keeps 100% of your skill points when podded.

You can replace this module with others that enhance your pod (maybe ship?), but you lose SP a result if you're podded. The other modules could be anything from speed increases, to warp speed, to tank, +1 stabs....whatever.

The modules are 'fitted' in the same way as you buy a medical clone - you have a panel in station that allows you to swap them out. Every change incurs a cost. The modules are not on the market, but rather 'seeded' by the game (like clones). This ensures ISK is still being taken out of the system.

You could have it so the pod comes empty, and you need to install the 'clone' module from the start if people like the current way. It also means that ISK would have to leave the system, as you'd need to buy it. There would be no relation so SP amount - you just buy the module. Keep It Simple.

You would be able to modify your pod in any station. None of this medical clone crap which just gets in the way.

Modular pods: A way for actual reward : risk : cost to work for pods.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#28 - 2014-10-31 16:46:35 UTC
- Remove clone costs/updating (remove ISK sink)
- Remove insurance (remove ISK faucet)

Even stevens.
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#29 - 2014-10-31 16:52:19 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Aqriue wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
I have a thread open in Assembly Hall, which is a little brash, but it's over an issue I unsubbed 3/4 of my accounts over. with a gang of nearly 1.3 Billion SP that can be welped at once, at the cost of half a PLEX to replace med clones, it's simply a bad idea.

Suck it up. CCP should remove clone coverage all together, all ships should cause loss of SP very much like a T3 crusier when the ship goes pop, smaller ships cause greater loss of SP while bigger ships offer greater "protection" for the hitpoint trade off, and the only trade off is the isk involved for the price of the hull or the price of the pod (clone coverage).

Fly cheap with less SP or fly expensive with more skill points for that hitpoint buffer + DPS a battleship/cap gives you, risk the isk or lose the SP.....cause your entire complaint reeks of risk aversion once a limit has been reached that a human psyche cannot tolerate anymore; I distinctly remember Goons slamming Hulks into space dust a few years back and what would you know....you are a Goon complaining that suddenly it "costs to much" to fly a ship yet hulks were getting damn expensive while Goons manipulated the market. Suddenly clone costs are getting too high, but you are probably dying more often then making the income to replace it....sounds like poor playing ability. HTFU and fly what you can afford, pod included which stores the back up of your skill points.

Like I said, risk the isk or risk the skill points.....both should be risked. Sounds fair, there isn't one cost valued in isk....there is just the value of RISK.

Hell, the entire death of a clone sounds like the solution to your problem....CCP just needs to allow the ability to remove a section of the skill points from the main pilot and distribute to another "clone" .....now your clone is "cheaper", but its going to cost more since you will not be immortal Twisted

Are you actually dumb enough to think that this is a good idea?


Not empty quoting. And even truly dumb people think this is a dumb idea.

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DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#30 - 2014-10-31 17:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: DaReaper
Not sure why no one noted this...

At eve vegas they mentioned both during one of the presentations and during the game design sesstion that they want to eliminate the cost of clones and the need to upgrade them. They do not believe it is a good death penalty and winds up making it so if you have a high cost clone (for exsample mine is up to 40m now [i'm rounding] ) it makes you not want to use a ship that cost less then your clone. Because why would I jump in a rifter and fit it to be about 10m isk, if when I blow up I could in theory lose another 40m to upgrade my clone?

Its something they are discussing now, in addition to a chance to have 'perma death' and possible add up upgrade modifiers for clones. I think an example was givien that for perma death you could pay for a clone that trains like 3X's faster, but the risk is if you die.. then you die.

Or you could pay extra for a clone with a build in bonus, but your base clone is free.

Anyway I personally think clone cost need to go. losing a ship and all your fittings is enough of a death penalty.

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2014-10-31 17:58:50 UTC
The problem with the 'by the way' mention at Vegas is it's really still empty words, just a maybe. not even a promise.

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Notorious Fellon
#32 - 2014-10-31 18:57:08 UTC
More SP gives me diversity in what ships I *can* fly. Sadly, I am better off training multiple specialized alts to reduce the death tax. Pointless mechanics are pointless.

Remove the SP loss mechanic from podding and the death tax and clone upgrade nonsense. Not an enjoyable mechanic. It is just a waste of my time and hinders my desire to pvp on my main.

Want ships to explode? Cool, stop taxing me for getting mine exploded.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2014-10-31 20:41:23 UTC
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
- Remove clone costs/updating (remove ISK sink)
- Remove insurance (remove ISK faucet)

Even stevens.

for the record, I politely request a separate deal for those of us who are good at math and game mechanics.

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Valerie Tessel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-10-31 22:16:13 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
- Remove clone costs/updating (remove ISK sink)
- Remove insurance (remove ISK faucet)

Even stevens.

for the record, I politely request a separate deal for those of us who are good at math and game mechanics.

Right, I was under the impression that both of those are ISK sinks, insurance having been called such in a recent Dev blog.

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DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#35 - 2014-10-31 22:24:16 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
The problem with the 'by the way' mention at Vegas is it's really still empty words, just a maybe. not even a promise.



Oh I know, I tend to take that with a grain of salt, until its in patch notes and LIVE on TQ it doesn't exist

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DarHammer Podesta
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-10-31 22:28:57 UTC
The analogy comparing it to driving a car in real life does not hold water. You pay for the car(taxed), fuel(taxed), insurance(heavily taxed), servicing of vehicle(taxed). We even pay for car registration(in australia directly handled by the goverment) and on top of that you pay for road tolls and insurance.

Im sure there are more hidden costs I am not thinking of but there is 7 dips in to your pocket. Makes flying in eve look cheap to me.

gl hf
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#37 - 2014-10-31 22:31:18 UTC
How is insurance an ISK sink? It pays out more ISK than you put in and you only buy it when you are certain your ship is going to explode. Therefor it is adding ISK into the game. A faucet. I think Rain6637 was probably objecting because the ISK saved by not having to deal with clones would be much smaller than the ISK lost by removing insurance. Or not. I dunno. I'm not a telepath.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2014-10-31 22:42:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
you can't balance one against the other. I'm also pretty sure the ISK value of insurance is much, much higher.

here are a couple things that make sense, if removing it completely seems a bit much.

a skill that reduces medical clone costs 18% per level, at V medical clone costs are reduced by 90%. 1/10 is reasonable.

medical clone insurance that at platinum nets a 90% reduction of medical clone costs.

the goal in either case is medical clone costs are reduced massively, and remain an unlimited sink with no benefit.

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Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#39 - 2014-10-31 22:46:18 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
true, it's a smaller ISK sink for some, and it's not an ISK sink at all for many. it's like a risk, and it's as if people avert it.


It indirectly benefits people who don't lose pods. Isk sinks make isk more valuable, and if you don't lose pods thats a straight benefit.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2014-10-31 22:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
but that suggests that people should always avoid losing pods, which leads to industry stagnation and no demand.

stay with me, I'm moving a bit fast.

You're about to say most of the ISK killed in the game is in Jita, and high sec. But that's a bad statistic because the only reason so much ISK is in Jita and highsec in the first place is the expectation that they won't lose ISK by being there.

keep thinking about what I just said until you have a eureka moment, because until you do it means you simply don't get it.

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