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Dev blog: Invention updates in Phoebe

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PerrinBash
Living the Dream
#101 - 2014-10-31 00:40:22 UTC
with my 7 alts and dc abilities I've massed a fortune from dc research, the root of it is they used to supply t2 BPO's as well. Stop the kiting around and get down to root CCP
Right, so with dumbing down of eve your now allowing any active account to unlimited (basically) training, changed all the reprocessing, allow all of hi sec harassment and bumping as fair play, revamp of all manufacturing and research, making most skills to level 5 a thing of past, and don't allow freighters mid slots or rigs, or any capacity to defend themselves.
Your moving toward the end game, lets just make it happen. Select the top 15% of SP players to get jovian technology and let us wreck eve, or....just keep chipping away at it bit by bit.
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2014-10-31 00:42:25 UTC
Good stuff. Thank you for the update.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#103 - 2014-10-31 00:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
I just wanted to echo the sentiment that given the rank of the skills involved a 1% per level TE bonus isn't that great. Can't we be more inventive and come up with something a little more interesting?

Also why exactly did you do away with using the level of them as a requirement to build each ship? Granted they needed sorting out to make a little more sense, but there was nothing wrong with them idea in principle as far as I can see. It is not like a couple of hour old newbie has any business or desire to be building a black ops or strategic cruiser anyway. And also it does take away from the scale of realism of the game when you think a low skilled newbie can now after pheobe build a highly advanced ship with little to no training.

My suggestion would be to re sort the skills in a way such as this or something similar.

Adv Small Ship I - Interceptor
Adv Small Ship II - Assault Frigate
Adv Small Ship III - Covert Ops / Ewar
Adv Small Ship IV - Interdictor
Adv Small Ship V - Tactical Destroyer

Adv Med Ship I - HAC
Adv Med Ship II - Logistics
Adv Med Ship III - Heavy Interdictor / Force Recon
Adv Med Ship IV - Command Ship
Adv Med Ship V - Strategic Cruiser

Adv Large Ship I - Marauder
Adv Large Ship II - Black Ops
Adv Large Ship III - Jump Freighter
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#104 - 2014-10-31 02:32:32 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I just wanted to echo the sentiment that given the rank of the skills involved a 1% per level TE bonus isn't that great. Can't we be more inventive and come up with something a little more interesting?

Also why exactly did you do away with using the level of them as a requirement to build each ship? Granted they needed sorting out to make a little more sense, but there was nothing wrong with them idea in principle as far as I can see. It is not like a couple of hour old newbie has any business or desire to be building a black ops or strategic cruiser anyway. And also it does take away from the scale of realism of the game when you think a low skilled newbie can now after pheobe build a highly advanced ship with little to no training.

My suggestion would be to re sort the skills in a way such as this or something similar.

Adv Small Ship I - Interceptor
Adv Small Ship II - Assault Frigate
Adv Small Ship III - Covert Ops / Ewar
Adv Small Ship IV - Interdictor
Adv Small Ship V - Tactical Destroyer

Adv Med Ship I - HAC
Adv Med Ship II - Logistics
Adv Med Ship III - Heavy Interdictor / Force Recon
Adv Med Ship IV - Command Ship
Adv Med Ship V - Strategic Cruiser

Adv Large Ship I - Marauder
Adv Large Ship II - Black Ops
Adv Large Ship III - Jump Freighter



it boggles my mind how they believe a low skilled newbie would jump into ADVANCED T2 building in the 1st place.. unless ccp is planning on a MAJOR moon goo nerf.. just due to the cost that goes into acquiring the materials to even build T2 ships alone.

since everyone now will just dive into T2 ship building.. what is the purpose for T1? a newbie should be focused on building that..instead of a advanced ship ....oh yeah.. that's right the advanced ship no longer takes a grind of time to build it..priceless thinking ccp.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#105 - 2014-10-31 05:45:48 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
seriously.. you are aware that folks do play the R & D agents missions.. grind up standings to use a better agent to spend their RP"s on datacores for specific sciences. right? right??

Which might have been a good plan for a while, until it was shot down dead by CCP.

I know this very well after grinding 4+ toons up to the standings needed.

Now the datacores they provide is almost worth collecting them ...

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
szaiboT Or
Enoria Foundation
#106 - 2014-10-31 10:43:27 UTC
Increasing the C3-FTM Acid use in Emergent Neurovisual Interface to 310 (+32)

I don't get this and next changes , they seems to be wrong.
Isn't ENI using only 5 C3-FTM Acid and not 278 now ?
Packe
Interstellar eXodus
The Initiative.
#107 - 2014-10-31 11:06:21 UTC
szaiboT Or wrote:
Increasing the C3-FTM Acid use in Emergent Neurovisual Interface to 310 (+32)

I don't get this and next changes , they seems to be wrong.
Isn't ENI using only 5 C3-FTM Acid and not 278 now ?



That changed a while ago.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#108 - 2014-10-31 13:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: probag Bear
Could the players get an updated SDE with these changes in it, or at least just the blueprints.yaml file? I really want to start playing with these new numbers ASAP. Could we please get it before the weekend is done, since free time is sparce mid-week?

Edit: It's up, thanks!
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#109 - 2014-10-31 15:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: probag Bear
Kaydar ArX wrote:
tldr: We removed the need of decent levels in science skills to invent T2 and gave a useless TE bonus to them.

Status of the 15 pages of feedbacks following the "lighting the invention bulb": [X] Ignored.


Well huh. That's weird. My tl;dr was "We made it actually beneficial to level up science skills past I instead of just making another invention alt." I really wish I was in your boat, able to complain about how much "unnecessary" sp I've invested into the Science skills, instead of my boat, where I have to go buy 24 PLEXes and go restart a bunch of dual-training queues, just so I can stay competitive. Thank god Phoebe is going to mean I don't have to log in 24 times every 3 days and update every single one of them.
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2014-10-31 16:18:48 UTC
probag Bear wrote:

Well huh. That's weird. My tl;dr was "We made it actually beneficial to level up science skills past I instead of just making another invention alt." I really wish I was in your boat, able to complain about how much "unnecessary" sp I've invested into the Science skills, instead of my boat, where I have to go buy 24 PLEXes and go restart a bunch of dual-training queues, just so I can stay competitive. Thank god Phoebe is going to mean I don't have to log in 24 times every 3 days and update every single one of them.


It's more like "Nice to have a beneficial side effect of training those skills up, but why on earth had it to be TE?". I'd personally like to see those construction skills give a small ME bonus (link in my last post) instead of just being a stripped down version on top of the original (Advanced) Industry TE bonus.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#111 - 2014-10-31 18:04:13 UTC
Banko Mato wrote:
probag Bear wrote:

Well huh. That's weird. My tl;dr was "We made it actually beneficial to level up science skills past I instead of just making another invention alt." I really wish I was in your boat, able to complain about how much "unnecessary" sp I've invested into the Science skills, instead of my boat, where I have to go buy 24 PLEXes and go restart a bunch of dual-training queues, just so I can stay competitive. Thank god Phoebe is going to mean I don't have to log in 24 times every 3 days and update every single one of them.


It's more like "Nice to have a beneficial side effect of training those skills up, but why on earth had it to be TE?". I'd personally like to see those construction skills give a small ME bonus (link in my last post) instead of just being a stripped down version on top of the original (Advanced) Industry TE bonus.

Skills will never give ME bonuses now. Ever. Live in the now!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2014-10-31 18:26:10 UTC
Querns wrote:

Skills will never give ME bonuses now. Ever. Live in the now!


And treating that as an absolute and unchangeable fact is imho just a stupid reduction in creativity, born from fear of creating another debacle like the old "lvl 5 or gtfo" Material Efficiency skill scenario.
With the changes of how ME is applied and the wide spread ways of getting more or less small ME boni (research, teams, POS arrays, outposts) the entire ME structure is currently in a healthy enough state to allow a minor ME bonus from skills in the effective (meaning all skills affecting a single job calculated together) of 1 or 2. Remember, this only affects T2 and T3 production, both of which do not suffer from margin killing stocks and hundreds of "minerals are free so I can produce at a theoretical loss" baseline sellers.

Defaulting all boni to TE and speeding up production all the time might probably not be the best idea...
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#113 - 2014-10-31 18:47:16 UTC
Banko Mato wrote:
Querns wrote:

Skills will never give ME bonuses now. Ever. Live in the now!


And treating that as an absolute and unchangeable fact is imho just a stupid reduction in creativity, born from fear of creating another debacle like the old "lvl 5 or gtfo" Material Efficiency skill scenario.

It's not so much a "fear" as it is "reality." Adding ME bonuses to skills means that you have to get the skill to 5 to be able to compete. Period.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#114 - 2014-10-31 19:19:07 UTC
Querns wrote:
Banko Mato wrote:
Querns wrote:

Skills will never give ME bonuses now. Ever. Live in the now!


And treating that as an absolute and unchangeable fact is imho just a stupid reduction in creativity, born from fear of creating another debacle like the old "lvl 5 or gtfo" Material Efficiency skill scenario.

It's not so much a "fear" as it is "reality." Adding ME bonuses to skills means that you have to get the skill to 5 to be able to compete. Period.

I'm starting to think that may not actually be a bad thing when it comes to invention.

Now, the old Production Efficiency skill was bad in that you needed it to 5 to build anything. Missles? V. Cruisers? V. Cargo Expanders? V. Jump Freighter? V. The skill itself was no meaningful; it was just something that you had to train if you wanted to participate in what is a huge part of the game.

But when it comes to these skills, that's not true. You don't need any of them at V to be a successful industrialist: you can still build cap ships, or ammunition, or any T1 mod without them. But if you do train them, you are now expanding your options, and you need to choose which options you open up first. There is meaning in choosing to train Graviton Physics over Mechanical Engineering; everyone is not looking to train the same skills out of the gate, and they can live with holes in their capabilities until they decide there are no more interesting skills to train.

So yeah, maybe CCP should reconsider the blanket No ME ban.
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2014-10-31 19:32:03 UTC
Querns wrote:

It's not so much a "fear" as it is "reality." Adding ME bonuses to skills means that you have to get the skill to 5 to be able to compete. Period.


I honestly call that BS in the context of teams and the entirety that is advanced industry (i.e. T2) right now. I can easily compete in all my ship productions (T2 small + medium) without always having the best teams for everything ( meaning I miss a few ME points here and there). Maybe read my proposal I linked a few posts back...
Having e.g. 0.1 ME per science skill and 0.2 ME per construction skill will in no way make them mandatory at lvl5. Lvl 3 or 4 would be more than enough for everybody in the T2 business to properly compete, and only the most serious producers might train them to 5 in order to squeeze the last few fractions of a percent point out of their efficiency.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#116 - 2014-10-31 20:03:41 UTC
Banko Mato wrote:

I honestly call that BS in the context of teams and the entirety that is advanced industry (i.e. T2) right now. I can easily compete in all my ship productions (T2 small + medium) without always having the best teams for everything ( meaning I miss a few ME points here and there). Maybe read my proposal I linked a few posts back...
Having e.g. 0.1 ME per science skill and 0.2 ME per construction skill will in no way make them mandatory at lvl5. Lvl 3 or 4 would be more than enough for everybody in the T2 business to properly compete, and only the most serious producers might train them to 5 in order to squeeze the last few fractions of a percent point out of their efficiency.

Except teams are not baseline production. Which is why they aren't compulsory to compete for profit.
If a skill gives any ME bonus, it will be taken to V, and it will become a V or bust skill because those margins are so tight. 0.5 ME + 0.5 ME + 1 ME = 2%. That's 50% of some items profit margin ignoring travel costs.
And the skills will become baseline and influence the market enough to cut everyone else out.

So no, he's not wrong, any ME bonus = V or bust returns.
Drabbin Mishi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2014-10-31 20:19:28 UTC
How are the static reimbursement prices for Interface BPC's being set?
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2014-10-31 20:35:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Except teams are not baseline production. Which is why they aren't compulsory to compete for profit.
If a skill gives any ME bonus, it will be taken to V, and it will become a V or bust skill because those margins are so tight. 0.5 ME + 0.5 ME + 1 ME = 2%. That's 50% of some items profit margin ignoring travel costs.
And the skills will become baseline and influence the market enough to cut everyone else out.

So no, he's not wrong, any ME bonus = V or bust returns.


What items are you referring to? All the skills in question still only affect T2 and T3 production...
Eodp Ellecon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2014-10-31 23:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Eodp Ellecon
From “lighting invention” Sept. 11, 2014
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/lighting-the-invention-bulb

Tweak to base success chances
We would like to tweak base success chance on various item types so they are a bit more consistent with ship sizes. Base invention chances currently are:
Modules and Ammo have a base probability of 40%
Frigates, Destroyers, Freighters and Skiff have a base probability of 30%
Cruisers, Industrials and Mackinaw have a base probability of 25%
Battlecruisers, Battleships and Hulk have a base probability of 20%

We would like to tweak those numbers to:
All modules, rigs and ammo have 40%
All Frigates and Destroyers have 35%
Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Mining Barges, Industrials, ORE industrial have 30%
All Battleships, Industrial Command Ship have 25%
Capitals and Capital Industrial Ships have 20%

So basically it results into a 5% base chance increase for all ships, except Freighters that drop down from 30% to 20% and Exhumers, which get a 0 to 10% boost depending on the exact hull.


From “invention updates in Phoebe” Oct. 31, 2014
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/invention-updates/

“In addition, base invention chance for all items is going to be modified to compensate for the formula tweaks above:
• All modules, rigs , ammo and all intact Ancient Relics: from 40% to 34%
• All Frigates, Destroyers and all malfunctioning Ancient Relics: from 35% to 30%
• Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Mining Barges, Industrials: from 30% to 26%
• All Battleships and all wrecked Ancient Relics: from 25% to 22%
• Freighters: from 20% to 18%

Taken in conjunction with the changes to the Invention formula above, that means the basic Invention chance will pretty much stay identical to its previous iteration.”

This may be simply a translation thing, but the word ‘from’ in the October update infers a reduction (from false numbers), while the September indicated a desire to improve base rate. TL:DR you may be ‘making it up’ in terms of skills calculations but it’s a marketing / language / translation problem of understanding.

Everything else is just is what it is.

Ty,
Eo
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#120 - 2014-11-01 15:10:33 UTC
^this. And the fact it is actually going to be lower for everything that we've seen so far....more CCP doublespeak and ignoring the majority of the feedback because it doesn't fit into their thought bubble.

New Icon SiSi feedback thread that got wholly ignored!

An example of that a good ship icon set looks like.