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The end of Corpmate Awoxxing?

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Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#301 - 2014-10-30 21:13:13 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
My old corp got awoxed loads of times, on account of the fact that we were deeply unpopular...

Despite that, though I think it's a mistake to remove the ability to awox corps.

When I got awoxed it made me so goddam mad, it spured me and my corp mates into action against who we thought was responsible.

In other words it's the unpleasant stuff like corporate heists and awoxing, ganking etc that makes you emotionally invest in your character, your ships and your friends. If we lose awoxing then we lose one more route to emotinal investment.

If eve becomes a game without emotional investment then it is really is dead regardless of subscriber numbers.




Awox will still be possible if the rumor ends up being true.

Only change is now you will have consequences.

And as many have demonstrated,,,,some of the so called pvp'rs and content creators don't want consequences for themselves.



Tell me more about these consequences... I'm still reading the 146 page pdf (which by the way I love).

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#302 - 2014-10-30 21:13:35 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Awox will still be possible if the rumor ends up being true.



do... do you even know what awoxing is?



According to this thread the ability to kill anyone in a corp I join with no consequence to myself.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#303 - 2014-10-30 21:17:09 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Awox will still be possible if the rumor ends up being true.



do... do you even know what awoxing is?



According to this thread the ability to kill anyone in a corp I join with no consequence to myself.


There are plenty of potential consequences, provided the corp you are screwing with has any balls. That's what a sandbox is, player actions should provoke player responses. If you don't respond, it's your fault.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dave Stark
#304 - 2014-10-30 21:21:20 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Awox will still be possible if the rumor ends up being true.



do... do you even know what awoxing is?



According to this thread the ability to kill anyone in a corp I join with no consequence to myself.


that's a no, then?
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#305 - 2014-10-30 21:21:31 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
My old corp got awoxed loads of times, on account of the fact that we were deeply unpopular...

Despite that, though I think it's a mistake to remove the ability to awox corps.

When I got awoxed it made me so goddam mad, it spured me and my corp mates into action against who we thought was responsible.

In other words it's the unpleasant stuff like corporate heists and awoxing, ganking etc that makes you emotionally invest in your character, your ships and your friends. If we lose awoxing then we lose one more route to emotinal investment.

If eve becomes a game without emotional investment then it is really is dead regardless of subscriber numbers.




Awox will still be possible if the rumor ends up being true.

Only change is now you will have consequences.

And as many have demonstrated,,,,some of the so called pvp'rs and content creators don't want consequences for themselves.



Tell me more about these consequences... I'm still reading the 146 page pdf (which by the way I love).





You are reading the wrong stuffs.

"There seems to be a strong suggestion that you will soon no longer be able to "legally" shoot corpmates, and the implication seems to be that shooting corpmates will be a criminal act in highsec that will be met with CONCORD retribution."


The only ones saying awoxing is going to disappear are the ones who don't like the fact that the only baseless thing that was mentioned was that now Concord would step in.



Which translates into someone not wanting to awox anymore because they will lose their ship as well.
Dave Stark
#306 - 2014-10-30 21:23:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Syn Shi wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
My old corp got awoxed loads of times, on account of the fact that we were deeply unpopular...

Despite that, though I think it's a mistake to remove the ability to awox corps.

When I got awoxed it made me so goddam mad, it spured me and my corp mates into action against who we thought was responsible.

In other words it's the unpleasant stuff like corporate heists and awoxing, ganking etc that makes you emotionally invest in your character, your ships and your friends. If we lose awoxing then we lose one more route to emotinal investment.

If eve becomes a game without emotional investment then it is really is dead regardless of subscriber numbers.




Awox will still be possible if the rumor ends up being true.

Only change is now you will have consequences.

And as many have demonstrated,,,,some of the so called pvp'rs and content creators don't want consequences for themselves.



Tell me more about these consequences... I'm still reading the 146 page pdf (which by the way I love).





You are reading the wrong stuffs.

"There seems to be a strong suggestion that you will soon no longer be able to "legally" shoot corpmates, and the implication seems to be that shooting corpmates will be a criminal act in highsec that will be met with CONCORD retribution."


The only ones saying awoxing is going to disappear are the ones who don't like the fact that the only baseless thing that was mentioned was that now Concord would step in.



Which translates into someone not wanting to awox anymore because they will lose their ship as well.




no, that's because if concord gets involved... that's suicide ganking, not awoxing. so that suggestion literally translates to "we want to removing awoxing".
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#307 - 2014-10-30 21:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:

The only rumored change...the awoxer will lose their ship.


Which means that awoxing ceases to exist, since what you described is suicide ganking and already exists.

So what you're saying is, if ship loss occurs (as in most forms of pvp), it stops being awoxing?

I don't have much against awoxers, save for the fact that eve might be more successful without their particular mechanic, but you aren't making a good case for yourself here.

TBH I always though awoxing was attacking a corpmate. Everything that came after that was a consequence of the awox attempt.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#308 - 2014-10-30 21:24:11 UTC
Terrible mechanic/loophole is removed. Good riddance. But yeah... I'm not sure how much of an impact this will have on NPC-Corp membership because war-decs are likely the #1 reason for people staying in those corps.

Maybe it will help a little. Because war-decs at least make a little more sense to people I think, and give you 24 hours of warning. Getting freely blown up by a corpmate in hisec feels more like BS/loophole/exploit.
Dave Stark
#309 - 2014-10-30 21:25:17 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:

The only rumored change...the awoxer will lose their ship.


Which means that awoxing ceases to exist, since what you described is suicide ganking and already exists.

So what you're saying is, if ship loss occurs (as in most forms of pvp), it stops being awoxing?

I don't have much against awoxers, save for the fact that eve might be more successful without their particular mechanic, but you aren't making a good case for yourself here.

TBH I always though awoxing was attacking a corpmate. Everything that came after that was a consequence of the awox attempt.


if you want to stop people awoxing with such impunity, fix the broken neutral logi mechanics.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#310 - 2014-10-30 21:26:11 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Awox will still be possible if the rumor ends up being true.



do... do you even know what awoxing is?



According to this thread the ability to kill anyone in a corp I join with no consequence to myself.


There are plenty of consequences to awxoing. Most obviously that you have made enemies of however many people there are in the corporation you just awoxed who presumably are now gunning for you.

Consequences are suppose to flow from other players in this game, not NPCs.

Awoxing is a conflict driver and thus has provided much content and stories over the years. I am sure people remember every detail of an awox even years later, long after they have completely forgotten about that "sweet L4 mission" that they ran just before the awoxer attacked.

Also, this hasn't been linked yet: http://www.minerbumping.com/2014/10/ccp-decides-to-ban-all-awoxingsafaris.html

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#311 - 2014-10-30 21:28:57 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
My old corp got awoxed loads of times, on account of the fact that we were deeply unpopular...

Despite that, though I think it's a mistake to remove the ability to awox corps.

When I got awoxed it made me so goddam mad, it spured me and my corp mates into action against who we thought was responsible.

In other words it's the unpleasant stuff like corporate heists and awoxing, ganking etc that makes you emotionally invest in your character, your ships and your friends. If we lose awoxing then we lose one more route to emotinal investment.

If eve becomes a game without emotional investment then it is really is dead regardless of subscriber numbers.




Awox will still be possible if the rumor ends up being true.

Only change is now you will have consequences.

And as many have demonstrated,,,,some of the so called pvp'rs and content creators don't want consequences for themselves.



Tell me more about these consequences... I'm still reading the 146 page pdf (which by the way I love).





You are reading the wrong stuffs.

"There seems to be a strong suggestion that you will soon no longer be able to "legally" shoot corpmates, and the implication seems to be that shooting corpmates will be a criminal act in highsec that will be met with CONCORD retribution."


The only ones saying awoxing is going to disappear are the ones who don't like the fact that the only baseless thing that was mentioned was that now Concord would step in.



Which translates into someone not wanting to awox anymore because they will lose their ship as well.




no, that's because if concord gets involved... that's suicide ganking, not awoxing. so that suggestion literally translates to "we want to removing awoxing".



The awox will still happen. Only change would be that you lose your ship a well.

If you make the choice to no longer awox due to losing your ship I can only conclude you don;t like losing your ship. As that would be the only change.

And if that awox is important to your corp, have them replace the ship...after all...its for the betterment of the corp.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#312 - 2014-10-30 21:29:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
y'all are aware that ecm will get you out of any high sec awox situation. right?

there have been many occasions when a perfect awox has been foiled by a single jam.


Sure, if you have some familiarity with it online at the time who can run back and grab it in time to stop the attack.

Since it's almost completely useless against rats, the odds are probably not good that most members of any given high sec PVE corp have even trained Electronic Warfare, never mind the amplification skills. There's no reason to use a dedicated jamming boat in PVE, so the odds that one would just be lying around are slim. Unless they do incursions, they might not even have logi. I trained it because my corp had veterans who had flown in PVP fleets for years. Not everyone does.

I'm willing to bet that most AWOXs succeed to the extent they do not just because of good timing by the AWOXer (striking when a mission boat is up against max DPS in a mission) but because people who have never PVP'd can and do freeze up when they're suddenly confronted with it and do dumb and uncoordinated things that get them popped.

That's another problem: PVE has become so utterly unlike PVP, and rats so completely unlike capsuleer ships, that people end up specializing into completely different areas. It's bad enough that most PVE rewards solo work, whereas most PVP rewards fleet work, so the odds aren't bad that the corp members are lacking the RL or even in-game skills to form an effective fleet, with roles and support.

I'm not particularly interested in blaming or fault-finding; this seems to me to a solvable problem.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Dave Stark
#313 - 2014-10-30 21:30:07 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
The awox will still happen. Only change would be that you lose your ship a well.

If you make the choice to no longer awox due to losing your ship I can only conclude you don;t like losing your ship. As that would be the only change.

And if that awox is important to your corp, have them replace the ship...after all...its for the betterment of the corp.




no, the awox doesn't happen.

we've been through this.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#314 - 2014-10-30 21:30:22 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
All I personally know is that when I came into EVE, I joined a mission running corp and were told all these things that were untrue about lw and null. If it wasn't for CCP introducing Faction Warfare, I'd have quit because based on bad information I was too afraid to venture outside of high sec.

My experience is not unique. I've trained more than a few guys back when I was in Atlas and IT and then Raiden who would say "man, can't belvie I didn't do this sooner".

I've come to realize that goons were doing it right, quickly ejecting their new players from high sec before they could become brainwashed lol. I now encourage new players to get the hell out of high sec as soon as possible, and avoid pve only high sec corps if they don't stay with my group.
Wait, so you joined EVE, would have quit, but CCP made a change making it easier for you to get into player interactive content, which encouraged you to stay. That's exactly what this suggestion is to do too.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#315 - 2014-10-30 21:32:15 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:

The only rumored change...the awoxer will lose their ship.


Which means that awoxing ceases to exist, since what you described is suicide ganking and already exists.

So what you're saying is, if ship loss occurs (as in most forms of pvp), it stops being awoxing?

I don't have much against awoxers, save for the fact that eve might be more successful without their particular mechanic, but you aren't making a good case for yourself here.

TBH I always though awoxing was attacking a corpmate. Everything that came after that was a consequence of the awox attempt.


No, what he is saying if ship loss occurs due to CONCORD involvement, it is effectively suicide ganking.

I guess you could call it awoxing too, but I can commit the same action (shooting of a target) with the same consequences (CONCORDing of my ship) without being in the corporation. Thus the awoxing part is irrelevant and it is just suicide ganking.

So yes, you are effectively removing awoxing by adding a CONCORD response to corp-on-corp violence. It isn't a nerf, it is complete removal.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Dave Stark
#316 - 2014-10-30 21:32:51 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
y'all are aware that ecm will get you out of any high sec awox situation. right?

there have been many occasions when a perfect awox has been foiled by a single jam.


Sure, if you have some familiarity with it online at the time who can run back and grab it in time to stop the attack.

Since it's almost completely useless against rats, the odds are probably not good that most members of any given high sec PVE corp have even trained Electronic Warfare, never mind the amplification skills. There's no reason to use a dedicated jamming boat in PVE, so the odds that one would just be lying around are slim. Unless they do incursions, they might not even have logi. I trained it because my corp had veterans who had flown in PVP fleets for years. Not everyone does.

I'm willing to bet that most AWOXs succeed to the extent they do not just because of good timing by the AWOXer (striking when a mission boat is up against max DPS in a mission) but because people who have never PVP'd can and do freeze up when they're suddenly confronted with it and do dumb and uncoordinated things that get them popped.

That's another problem: PVE has become so utterly unlike PVP, and rats so completely unlike capsuleer ships, that people end up specializing into completely different areas. It's bad enough that most PVE rewards solo work, whereas most PVP rewards fleet work, so the odds aren't bad that the corp members are lacking the RL or even in-game skills to form an effective fleet, with roles and support.

I'm not particularly interested in blaming or fault-finding; this seems to me to a solvable problem.


so what you're saying is, people should be protected from something even if they put 0 effort in to protecting themselves from it? really?

i'm willing to bet that most awoxes succeed because people don't bother to do basic checks before recruiting. accepting blank applications from known awoxers, for example.

of course it's solvable... fix neutral logi turning a 10 hour pilot in a gnosis in to an unstoppable killing machine once he has activated his scram and web.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#317 - 2014-10-30 21:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Shi
Dave Stark wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
y'all are aware that ecm will get you out of any high sec awox situation. right?

there have been many occasions when a perfect awox has been foiled by a single jam.


Sure, if you have some familiarity with it online at the time who can run back and grab it in time to stop the attack.

Since it's almost completely useless against rats, the odds are probably not good that most members of any given high sec PVE corp have even trained Electronic Warfare, never mind the amplification skills. There's no reason to use a dedicated jamming boat in PVE, so the odds that one would just be lying around are slim. Unless they do incursions, they might not even have logi. I trained it because my corp had veterans who had flown in PVP fleets for years. Not everyone does.

I'm willing to bet that most AWOXs succeed to the extent they do not just because of good timing by the AWOXer (striking when a mission boat is up against max DPS in a mission) but because people who have never PVP'd can and do freeze up when they're suddenly confronted with it and do dumb and uncoordinated things that get them popped.

That's another problem: PVE has become so utterly unlike PVP, and rats so completely unlike capsuleer ships, that people end up specializing into completely different areas. It's bad enough that most PVE rewards solo work, whereas most PVP rewards fleet work, so the odds aren't bad that the corp members are lacking the RL or even in-game skills to form an effective fleet, with roles and support.

I'm not particularly interested in blaming or fault-finding; this seems to me to a solvable problem.


so what you're saying is, people should be protected from something even if they put 0 effort in to protecting themselves from it? really?

i'm willing to bet that most awoxes succeed because people don't bother to do basic checks before recruiting. accepting blank applications from known awoxers, for example.

of course it's solvable... fix neutral logi turning a 10 hour pilot in a gnosis in to an unstoppable killing machine once he has activated his scram and web.



So what you are saying is, if you are going to lose a ship.........you will choose to stop awoxing.

That's kinda lame. But hey, if that is the path you choose....more power to you.

Any other activities you choose not to do because you will lose a ship?
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#318 - 2014-10-30 21:45:43 UTC
I see lots of people complaining about the possible removal of AWOXxing and how it will have such a huge impact on content creation.

Well, let's take a look at some data.

https://zkillboard.com/kills/awox/

The vast majority of the list are kills in nullsec or wormhole space, involving groups like RvB who constantly shoot at each other on purpose, or folks trying to swipe a bounty off of a fellow suicide ganker. Sure, there's a few genuine AWOX kills here and there...but most of them are just fluff.

Why all the hubbub over a bunch of fluff?

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Sion Kumitomo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2014-10-30 21:46:17 UTC
The continued misuse of the word 'awox' in this thread has me in quite a state. Check your history, almost all of you are wrong.

This change would literally only effect hisec. Seriously. That's it. Want to shoot your mates in low/null/wh? Go nuts. There is otherwise no impact anywhere else with this.

That is, unless your entire gameplay style is centered on abusing people who don't understand counterintuitive gameplay mechanics in EVE's 'safest' systems, in which case I'm sure this will impact you, and I'm so very sorry you're unable to take on real challenges and lack the imagination to think of other ways to hurt people. Basically, you're dumb if you think that anyone who knows what real risk means is going to hop on some terrible hyberbolic bandwagon defending your right to beat up the proverbial new kid and take their lunch money.

Or to put it another way, HTFU yourselves you bunch of whiners.

On twitter @siggonK
Dave Stark
#320 - 2014-10-30 21:51:33 UTC
Sion Kumitomo wrote:
That is, unless your entire gameplay style is centered on abusing people who don't understand counterintuitive gameplay mechanics in EVE's 'safest' systems,


so when's the ETA on banning scams?
when's the ETA on banning mission baiting?

you are banning those too, i assume, since they're also centered on the same things.