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The end of Corpmate Awoxxing?

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#281 - 2014-10-30 20:17:30 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
So much speculation going on here. So much blaming play styles. So much hate and resentment. In other words, the usual. CCP is making decisions based on facts that are simply not (explicitly) available to us. I think of all people that have posted here, only one has a reasonably good idea as to what really is going on, and that is Mike Azariah. But he is not able to say for obvious reasons. But there are some signs, the most obvious being that player retention may be on a steady decline.

That CCP is making these tough choices comes at no surprise to me at all. There is only so many times we can tell potential new players to "go back to WOW" before we start feeling the consequences ourselves. And I suspect that's the point we are at right now. Like I said, the signs are already there.


The truth is usually counter-intuitive. What you think sounds reasonable till you start to think that the people who leave are probably the people who don't stick with anything for long, so no amount of coddling would have kept them.

As far as information we aren't privy to, we don't need to be. CCP probably has lots of information about lots of things. Can you say that they've never misinterpreted a sitution even though that had loads of information about it (and real time experiance about how players react to certain situations)?

Remember, this is the company that got blindsided by our reactions to incarna/microtransactions and the like even though our reactions should have been obvious and predictable. And I swear I won't link this again (in this thread.....) , but this is the company that thought nerfing null sec anoms would lead to more conflict.

They are protentially making a similar mistake here.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#282 - 2014-10-30 20:18:59 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
gank or GTFO of highsec


No. PvP belongs in highsec, plain and simple. There should be no one way to do it, much like you how you disgusting freaklings insist that no one should "force" you to play a certain way.

But of course because you're all hypocrites, you are just fine with forcing gameplay on others.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#283 - 2014-10-30 20:20:24 UTC
@ Dersen Lowery I'm not in a position to respond at the moment, I've plans for the rest of the evening that involve a lady friend, some food, some wine and hopefully some horizontal entertainment CoolBig smile

I'll respond when I'm more able Lol

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#284 - 2014-10-30 20:20:27 UTC
BTW, although this change is mentioned in the CSM minutes, there has been no Dev post about it, or a blog, or anything. Is it actually still a thing?

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#285 - 2014-10-30 20:20:44 UTC
Eve is was a cold dark universe. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#286 - 2014-10-30 20:32:58 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
I try to see both sides of an argument, honest I do.

That this 'buffs hisec' and makes the game safer? Yeah I see that.

Thing is it does so by removing a stupid loophole. Can one of the opposition explain to me WHY it makes sense that I can shoot a guy in my corp but not a stranger? Why concord will react to one incident and not the other?

With dual mechanics we now have ways to 'test a tank' ignoring completely sisi server for the moment. So why did the awox mechanic make sense to you? I understand it made Eve 'dangerous' and allowed a certain type of gameplay but at the bottom of it . . . is there a logic to that rule?

m

GHSC popped an officer fit something or other just before I started playing. A few people I know remarked that they heard about it and started playing because they were intrigued by the notion of a game that allowed players to engage in that type of activity. The Dbank, Ebank and T4U scams were shortly after, sparking similar levels of press attention, and reports of people subbing to see what the fuss was about. B-R and Asakai kicked off because of a failed sov bill and an accidental "jump to" instead of "bridge to" by a Titan (try telling me that button arrangement is "logical").

Some people are attracted to open ended game play where this type of activity is possible. Some are repulsed by it and accuse the participants of being vicious sociopath griefers who drive players out via cyberbullying. You don't have to engage in these activities to appreciate the value in allowing them to occur. It makes ingame achievements meaningful when they are earned in spite of dangers and risks. There's a trend here to curtail player driven interraction that generate noisy complaints and to smooth the rougher edges from something that stands apart by being prickly. Remember can-flipping and when there was no "enable safety" button? These were actually content generators that got people interracting and were treated with amusement by people playing in good fun.

Closing these "illogical" loopholes as you put it erodes our ability to generate player driven narratives that are unique to Eve. That GHSC awox will never happen again if this proposal is implemented. Once it's gone, you can't put it back. The whining of Highsec residents will never stop until CCP caves and puts them in an instanced zone where they have absolute control over their interraction with other players. Even then, they'll still find something to bellyache about. It's alright claiming changes like this are being proposed "for the noobies", but it affects everyone, and it's not unfair to react to a general 'dumbing down' or 'Eve Online for Numpties v.18' with a degree of dismay. We all started out in Highsec, and exposure to awoxing, thefts, wardecs, ganking may have been the trigger to draw us into a more engaged playstyle - or at the least taught us to be careful and to take responsibility for ourselves. How are new players supposed to gain those experiences when they are being gradually stripped away?


I'm considering subbing several new accounts just to give this post more "likes".

Then ragequitting them all when these changes take effect.Big smile

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#287 - 2014-10-30 20:40:51 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
So much speculation going on here. So much blaming play styles. So much hate and resentment. In other words, the usual. CCP is making decisions based on facts that are simply not (explicitly) available to us. I think of all people that have posted here, only one has a reasonably good idea as to what really is going on, and that is Mike Azariah. But he is not able to say for obvious reasons. But there are some signs, the most obvious being that player retention may be on a steady decline.

That CCP is making these tough choices comes at no surprise to me at all. There is only so many times we can tell potential new players to "go back to WOW" before we start feeling the consequences ourselves. And I suspect that's the point we are at right now. Like I said, the signs are already there.


The truth is usually counter-intuitive. What you think sounds reasonable till you start to think that the people who leave are probably the people who don't stick with anything for long, so no amount of coddling would have kept them.

As far as information we aren't privy to, we don't need to be. CCP probably has lots of information about lots of things. Can you say that they've never misinterpreted a sitution even though that had loads of information about it (and real time experiance about how players react to certain situations)?

Remember, this is the company that got blindsided by our reactions to incarna/microtransactions and the like even though our reactions should have been obvious and predictable. And I swear I won't link this again (in this thread.....) , but this is the company that thought nerfing null sec anoms would lead to more conflict.

They are protentially making a similar mistake here.



They have records of the exit interview surveys and petitions. They probably have a good idea as to why players abandon ship. There is a huge majority out there that doesn't visit the forums and screams when it feels wronged. I believe CCP is in a better position at making this decision than we are, since they have a better understanding of why players don't stick around.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Dave Stark
#288 - 2014-10-30 20:45:06 UTC
y'all are aware that ecm will get you out of any high sec awox situation. right?

there have been many occasions when a perfect awox has been foiled by a single jam.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2014-10-30 20:47:56 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
y'all are aware that ecm will get you out of any high sec awox situation. right?

there have been many occasions when a perfect awox has been foiled by a single jam.

Yeah. But fitting ECM every time you fly out with corp mates doesn't seem too reasonable. But what do I know P.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Dave Stark
#290 - 2014-10-30 20:50:35 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
y'all are aware that ecm will get you out of any high sec awox situation. right?

there have been many occasions when a perfect awox has been foiled by a single jam.

Yeah. But fitting ECM every time you fly out with corp mates doesn't seem too reasonable. But what do I know P.


just keep one in a station where you're living.

if an awoxer shows up, just reship, jam him, get everyone off grid, and add him to the new kick queue and after downtime you're awoxer free.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#291 - 2014-10-30 20:55:07 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
y'all are aware that ecm will get you out of any high sec awox situation. right?

there have been many occasions when a perfect awox has been foiled by a single jam.

Yeah. But fitting ECM every time you fly out with corp mates doesn't seem too reasonable. But what do I know P.


just keep one in a station where you're living.

if an awoxer shows up, just reship, jam him, get everyone off grid, and add him to the new kick queue and after downtime you're awoxer free.


But that requires more than zero effort, Dave, so it's unacceptable to them. It's also not a 100% guarantee, which they also won't budge on it seems.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ama Scelesta
#292 - 2014-10-30 20:59:25 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
y'all are aware that ecm will get you out of any high sec awox situation. right?

there have been many occasions when a perfect awox has been foiled by a single jam.

Yeah. But fitting ECM every time you fly out with corp mates doesn't seem too reasonable. But what do I know P.

The problem is that you're being reasonable and therefore might have a hard time following the thinking of diehard defenders of the status quo. It seem that if there is even a theoretical chance to prepare for it, it can't possibly be a problem. At the same time requiring more then zero effort on their part is seen as CCP betraying some fundamental pillar of EVE.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#293 - 2014-10-30 21:00:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
y'all are aware that ecm will get you out of any high sec awox situation. right?

there have been many occasions when a perfect awox has been foiled by a single jam.

Yeah. But fitting ECM every time you fly out with corp mates doesn't seem too reasonable. But what do I know P.


just keep one in a station where you're living.

if an awoxer shows up, just reship, jam him, get everyone off grid, and add him to the new kick queue and after downtime you're awoxer free.


But that requires more than zero effort, Dave, so it's unacceptable to them. It's also not a 100% guarantee, which they also won't budge on it seems.



The only rumored change...the awoxer will lose their ship.

We get it, you are risk averse. You don't want consequences.

Who is the carebear again?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#294 - 2014-10-30 21:01:50 UTC
Ama Scelesta wrote:

The problem is that you're being reasonable


That's not reasonable, it's an absurdity that no one actually suggested.

What is being suggested is that you should have to do more than nothing to defend yourself. You would prefer to do nothing, and get 100% effectiveness for your nothing.

That tells me all I need to know about you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#295 - 2014-10-30 21:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mharius Skjem
My old corp got awoxed loads of times, on account of the fact that we were deeply unpopular...

Despite that, though I think it's a mistake to remove the ability to awox corps.

When I got awoxed it made me so goddam mad, it spured me and my corp mates into action against who we thought was responsible.

In other words it's the unpleasant stuff like corporate heists and awoxing, ganking etc that makes you emotionally invest in your character, your ships and your friends. If we lose awoxing then we lose one more route to emotinal investment.

If eve becomes a game without emotional investment then it is really is dead regardless of subscriber numbers.

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Dave Stark
#296 - 2014-10-30 21:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Syn Shi wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
y'all are aware that ecm will get you out of any high sec awox situation. right?

there have been many occasions when a perfect awox has been foiled by a single jam.

Yeah. But fitting ECM every time you fly out with corp mates doesn't seem too reasonable. But what do I know P.


just keep one in a station where you're living.

if an awoxer shows up, just reship, jam him, get everyone off grid, and add him to the new kick queue and after downtime you're awoxer free.


But that requires more than zero effort, Dave, so it's unacceptable to them. It's also not a 100% guarantee, which they also won't budge on it seems.



The only rumored change...the awoxer will lose their ship.

We get it, you are risk averse. You don't want consequences.

Who is the carebear again?


said the people who are celebrating the fact that no matter how **** their recruitment standards, there will be 0 consequences for inviting any scrublord to their spaceguild without even as much as a private convo?

i mean, i know if we're looking at a risk vs reward thing current corps are ****** and offer very little to high sec players... but we should simply make corps rewarding rather than less risky. the game is built on risk and conflict not holding hands and singing kumbayah together.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#297 - 2014-10-30 21:06:25 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:
My old corp got awoxed loads of times, on account of the fact that we were deeply unpopular...

Despite that, though I think it's a mistake to remove the ability to awox corps.

When I got awoxed it made me so goddam mad, it spured me and my corp mates into action against who we thought was responsible.

In other words it's the unpleasant stuff like corporate heists and awoxing, ganking etc that makes you emotionally invest in your character, your ships and your friends. If we lose awoxing then we lose one more route to emotinal investment.

If eve becomes a game without emotional investment then it is really is dead regardless of subscriber numbers.




Awox will still be possible if the rumor ends up being true.

Only change is now you will have consequences.

And as many have demonstrated,,,,some of the so called pvp'rs and content creators don't want consequences for themselves.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#298 - 2014-10-30 21:09:51 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:

The only rumored change...the awoxer will lose their ship.


Which means that awoxing ceases to exist, since what you described is suicide ganking and already exists.


Quote:

We get it, you are risk averse. You don't want consequences.


Of course I do, I'm the one attacking at a thirty to one odds. I don't use neutral logi either, just a cloaking device on a battlecruiser.

You're the one who wants 100% of your risk removed.

Quote:

Who is the carebear again?


Still you, you risk averse shitheel.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#299 - 2014-10-30 21:09:52 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
@ Dersen Lowery I'm not in a position to respond at the moment, I've plans for the rest of the evening that involve a lady friend, some food, some wine and hopefully some horizontal entertainment CoolBig smile

I'll respond when I'm more able Lol


Sounds good. That's the great thing about forums, they're asynchronous.

I'll try to edit my posts down; it's just that this is a really good conversation.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Dave Stark
#300 - 2014-10-30 21:10:01 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Awox will still be possible if the rumor ends up being true.



do... do you even know what awoxing is?