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The end of Corpmate Awoxxing?

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#221 - 2014-10-30 18:47:53 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

He can't prove his point without access to ccp's data anymore than you can prove yours. All we know is that ccp has the data, and they're the ones choosing to make these changes.


They're not making any change, they're floating ideas in the CSM minutes. One that I am stringently disagreeing with.

And as for the "Leveling their Raven" people. Yes, retaining them would be a benefit.

But never if that means taking away from the sandbox. Selling the soul of the game for the sake of purely theoretical casual players who already behave in a fashion contrary to the reality of the game is not worth it.

Ultima Online died doing exactly that.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Gaan Cathal
Angry Mustellid
#222 - 2014-10-30 18:48:41 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


So is corp jumping and NPC corp hugging but people keep labeling those as an exploit. It's almost as if people were labeling stuff they don't like about the game an exploit in the hope CCP will somehow think that way too. It's always fun to read 2 threads at the same time about 2 of those and see both side sling poo at each others by calling the other an exploiter while being wrong all the time.



Actually IIRC the specific case where a corp disbands and immediately reforms under the same name to avoid a Wardec is a petitionable exploit.
Sol Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#223 - 2014-10-30 18:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Sol Project
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Furthermore, CCP should not be concerned with the kind of people who "level their Raven and then quit", because they'd be quitting anyway. This game will never attract AND keep such people, they treat it like it's a Facebook game.

Yes, but what if they didn't?

Retaining even a small portion of the "upgrade your raven types" (~40% of new players as per CCP Rise at FF) could, over a modest time frame,significantly increase the quantity of targets in our sand box.

Providing for these worthless souls, whether it be in the form of dojos/arenas, improved missions, reducing awoxing, etc. has the opportunity to vastly enrich the sandbox and is therefore a worthwhile pursuit.

No. It does not enrich the sandbox. I doubt you ever enriched the sandbox so I understand if you use these words in such an empty manner.

The reason why these people leave is because there is a cap to their satisfaction. Eventually, there will be no reason to keep going, because the fake feelings of achievement by shooting stupid NPCs have maxed out and they go find a new game that gives them these fake feelings of achievements.

These people do not enrich the sandbox. At best, they are loudmouthing targets. "Enriching the sandbox" means to provide content. Sand. These people you mention do not provide sand at all. They are ants who are being kicked out, because the sandbox is not where they belong.

Ladies of New Eden YC 117 by Indahmawar Fazmarai

Warning: NSFW! Barely legal girls in underwear!

Diana Kim > AND THIS IS WHY THE FEDERATION MUST BE DESTROYED!!
Marsha Mallow
#224 - 2014-10-30 18:52:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:

We just want to grief and gank under the guise that we are creating content. (and we don't want to risk anything)


Yeah, the Guiding Hand Social Club totally wasn't one of the single largest generators of long term subs in the history of the game.

It's just "griefing" that stops CCP from attracting the kind of people who just want to watch Family Guy with one hand down their pants while they mine endlessly in highsec. Oh, if only we could have less of the former and more of the latter!

Linky. For those who don't remember it or weren't playing at the time, check the comments. There was massive press relating to that incident, it's really surprising how many people started playing because of it.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#225 - 2014-10-30 18:53:30 UTC
"If you remove awoxing, you will have more targets! ... for the mechanics that don't actually work like wardecs."

You lot expect us to swallow that nonsense?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Josef Djugashvilis
#226 - 2014-10-30 18:54:00 UTC
If CCP decide to end AWOXING, it will either increase or decrease subs.

There again, the effect may be neutral.

This is not a signature.
Sol Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#227 - 2014-10-30 18:54:44 UTC
And I like to add that CCPs data most likely does not actually tell them anything of value. Instead of looking at worthless bits and exitpolls, all they would need to do is have actually skilled people play and talk to those it is actually about. Proper social engineering is what is needed.

CCPs data has less use than toilet paper.

Ladies of New Eden YC 117 by Indahmawar Fazmarai

Warning: NSFW! Barely legal girls in underwear!

Diana Kim > AND THIS IS WHY THE FEDERATION MUST BE DESTROYED!!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#228 - 2014-10-30 18:54:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

I'll even cut your job a bit and grant you that if it does not hurt subs, there is absolutely no reasons to change this so you only really have to think about what you might do if it did.

Both option might be true in reality but we don't know which scenario is actually being played right now.


It doesn't cost subs.



I will take your words for it as soon as you provide a proof of it. You seem to have access to CCP's account history data so it should not be hard for you to provide fact about how it does not cost subs.


Prove that it does.


Oh look, we are both stuck with the same problem where we completely have no data about why subs are leaving. We only know what CCP said about the 40/40/20 ratio but they never said why it happens. They obviously quit for some reason but you, me, Obama and ISIS are all stuck at the same exact point. We don't have the required info to make an actual proof because for all the people we could ask in game why they stayed, we will never know why the one who are gone did leave. We will obviously not convince each others because you firmly believe in your point of view and I openly admit to not knowing what the real deal is but I think CCP might know better than random players. I don't give a damn if you are right or wrong because I can't make the decision for CCP anyway but what I find absolutely stupid is your lack of vision to be willing to at least think that you might be wrong. You absolutely chase away these though as if your point of view was some king of god given truth about the state of CCP's sub numbers so your build your complete point of view on something that no one but the silent one (CCP) can prove or deny.

There is a metric ass ton of reason why CCP is losing potential costumer and no one in this discussion really has an answer to this. We are all making guess as to what it might or might not be while CCP is making moves on what I assume is there own analyse of the data they have.
Victoria Ewans
Inefficient Canadian Cosmic Conglomerate
#229 - 2014-10-30 18:55:06 UTC
im new to the game... and i find it attractive. But...

There is something i dont understand.

Given Eve is a dark-harsh-PVP-sandbox MMO oriented game, i do understand that many players are attracted with the idea of being the bad guy, commonly known as:
- copr thief
- suicide ganker
- solo ganker
- group gnaker
- scammer
- liar
- manipulator
- bait pvper
- wardeccer
- randsom'er
- harasment player

Given Eve is a "dangerous" game, everybody need to be on their toes to achieve their personal goal according their desire of the moment.

Once that being said, why is everybody complaining about everything in this game? I mean, the bads guys want a free pvp cahotic wolrd everywhere while the carebear want secrutiy everywhere.

I was wondering why the hell does bad guy dont, all at the same moment, go back to low/ null sec? this way it will no longer be player empty. They will find the pvp engagement they are lookgin for fighting for their survival.

Doing so, the high sec will be a more "secure" place for the carebear so they can do their thing relatively quietfully. Because, this game need carebear as far as my understanding of the game goes. Isnt carebear essential to the market?
- I though that the only way to generate ingame ISK was missing running and rat bounty
- Who will feed the market with ore if its not the high sec miner? since they are prolly insta-ganked in low sec (without escort). If you add that player in low/null sec arent really intereseted in mining more than pvp.

Without all the differents sultilities of the game and assuming its general behavior without going in detail, i though that highsec was essential to the game so new player can learn its way. Later on, more the player feels comfortable with the hostile environnement of the game they can go deeper in the space and reach low/null sec.

All this, leads me to a question: why do the bad guys are in highsec and not in lowsec fighting against each other in their cahotic pvp while the highsec produce the new player to feed their endless needs of fresh meat? Its like if the bad guy are carebear themself since they are seeking weaker preys in highsec because they are affraid of more dangerous player roaming out there in low sec? Im sure that bad guys are exactly like care bear:
- nobody like loosing a battle,
- being killed while not expecting it,
- both are playing the game to have fun, none is playing it to not enjoy it

This leads me to an other assumption:
- If there is an average of 25000-30000 players online at once on the server
- they are mainly in high/low sec
- null sec is almost empty
- the big majority of player are pvp-bad guys oriented
* i will assume that 15000 - 20000 player are pvp oriented one
* i will assume that 10000 - 15000 player are care bear
- the bad guys want to be bad guys, hence handling the player oriented content like the world-wide famously known James-315
- the care bear want to be care bear, mining ans mission running

What would be best?
1- all the care bear quiting the game because of this or that, leaving those many pvp player to battle against each other?
2- the pvp-er going to pvp against each other with the bonus of harassing player in highsec?
3- all the pvp'er quitting the game because of this or that? who would create risk and danger? prolly the game would become boring...

finally, how relevent is the Awoxing change are in that context?

I suppose that
- more safety = more care bear getting into the game
- more care bear = more pvp target + more new pvp'er in few months

Concluded.

Now im welcoming your harsh, mean, rude and trolling comments as it is commonly seen on the forums.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#230 - 2014-10-30 19:00:31 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Furthermore, CCP should not be concerned with the kind of people who "level their Raven and then quit", because they'd be quitting anyway. This game will never attract AND keep such people, they treat it like it's a Facebook game.

Yes, but what if they didn't?

Retaining even a small portion of the "upgrade your raven types" (~40% of new players as per CCP Rise at FF) could, over a modest time frame,significantly increase the quantity of targets in our sand box.

Providing for these worthless souls, whether it be in the form of dojos/arenas, improved missions, reducing awoxing, etc. has the opportunity to vastly enrich the sandbox and is therefore a worthwhile pursuit.


Worthless? OK, let's review the gameplay enabled and enhanced by the Raven-leveling mission runner.

  • Every ship with meta equipment in the game;
  • A great quantity of faction items in the game, and all COSMOS items;
  • Combat scanning;
  • Mission invasion;
  • Ninja salvaging and looting;
  • Arbitrage;
  • Station trading and market PVP generally, both from loot and from items bought with LP;
  • Ganking at gates;
  • Industry, because mission runners do in fact lose ships.

Not bad for worthless.

The guy with the bling Raven running SoE missions got me and my scanning alt the SoE launcher and probes that I've used to scan down any number of people, places and things in wormhole space. Some other guys, possibly in FW got me the Caldari Navy and Federation Navy Antimatter that I cheerfully fired at many of the same targets.

The fact is that between loot, LP stores, travel, the missions themselves, and the ships involved, PVE in high sec facilitates more interaction with more players in more ways than PVE anywhere else in the game, even if the person running the PVE is a hermit in a vanity corp who's never even heard of TeamSpeak. High sec PVE players spend a lot of time in ships, in space, which is good.

Obviously, it would be even better if the Raven-levelers were not merely defaulted into that play style by the mission-focused NPE--the retention numbers are clear that it's not a popular pastime, though it obviously has its adherents, and that's fine. It would be great if the Raven-levelers could easily switch gears and explore other areas of the game when they got bored or ran out of slots to put purple things.

That's why this change is good. That's why I love Mangala Solaris' idea of giving roaming fleets some support mechanics. There need to be more, and more accessible, and more intuitive, ways for players to connect to other players, because players are what this game is finally about.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#231 - 2014-10-30 19:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

But never if that means taking away from the sandbox. Selling the soul of the game for the sake of purely theoretical casual players who already behave in a fashion contrary to the reality of the game is not worth it.

Awoxing is no more "the soul of the game" than jumping 50 supers to gank a bumped titan 100 lightyears away. Both are a simple consequence of mechanics, and both can (and will) be removed in a likely fashion.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"If you remove awoxing, you will have more targets! ... for the mechanics that don't actually work like wardecs."

You lot expect us to swallow that nonsense?

And things like scamming, ganking, corp theft, etc. But no, wardecs. Totally.... Roll

Also, Syn Shi made a very good point. They aren't removing awoxing. You can still find and gank high value targets via infiltration. They just added a consequence for doing so in hisec. Things should have consequences, yes?Cool
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#232 - 2014-10-30 19:02:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

There is a metric ass ton of reason why CCP is losing potential costumer and no one in this discussion really has an answer to this. We are all making guess as to what it might or might not be while CCP is making moves on what I assume is there own analyse of the data they have.


I don't have to assume anything, or guess.

It can be easily inferred that not everyone will enjoy a sandbox game in the long term. Those people are not only inevitable losses, but of no concern for anything.

It can also be easily inferred that people who "Level their Raven", that meaning trying to play this game like it was World of Warcraft, are not suitable for the sandbox.

Hence my statement. Anything that is the "cause" of these people leaving is of no real consequence, they WILL quit anyway. But you're telling me that another month of their flash in the pan pretensions that this isn't a multiplayer game is worth the loss of my seven years of playing, the last five of which with 3 accounts at least.

Because the price of their subbing for maybe one more month before they realize they are playing the wrong game and quit is that my playstyle is removed and I unsub everything I might have had for the next few years, permanently. Me, and everyone like me.

Yeah, totally worth it. Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#233 - 2014-10-30 19:04:33 UTC
The only way to stop AWOX is to assign each module group with a criminal activation. Done through Corp and Alliance settings in an ideal scenario.

If CCP need to establish presets, they can use the full, partial and anything goes settings we have now to define Corp settings.

It's possible to do this. and yes it will force civility on to anyone joining corps but would still allow them to act like barbarians if the general theme is agreed upon.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#234 - 2014-10-30 19:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Also, Syn Shi made a very good point. They aren't removing awoxing. You can still find and gank high value targets via infiltration.


No, that's just suicide ganking. That existed before, and I can do 100% it without being in their corp beforehand. Also, as a largely solo player, my choice of targets is sharply limited by the unreasonable restrictions on this playstyle. While on the other hand, wardecs are toothless.

Stop with the disingenuous nonsense already.

[edit:

I am a solo player largely due to time constraints from my irl job. That's why this pisses me off so much, because as such a player, awoxing is the ONE way that I can inflict meaningful loss on people who would otherwise suffer exactly zero losses. Why should they get to be immune? Why is their sub worth more than mine? Why should their petty peace of mind merit the removal of my playstyle?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#235 - 2014-10-30 19:08:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Also, Syn Shi made a very good point. They aren't removing awoxing. You can still find and gank high value targets via infiltration.


No, that's just suicide ganking. That existed before, and I can do 100% it without being in their corp beforehand. Also, as a largely solo player, my choice of targets is sharply limited by the unreasonable restrictions on this playstyle. While on the other hand, wardecs are toothless.

Stop with the disingenuous nonsense already.

Convince your target to take their raven or w/e into a wormhole with you. Use some goddam guile. Adapt. Both sides are being equally disingenuous in this thread.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2014-10-30 19:09:17 UTC
Sol Project wrote:

Do you have any ideas why people do not stay for longer or do you just have data?


Isn't any list of reasons I present 'data'?

Sadly, IF I do know the stats/data from sessions with CCP NDA would preclude me from giving them to you so we are left with the choice that a) CCP is randomly making changes with no reasoning behind them hoping that out of the chaos something will happen that makes the game better OR (b) they do have some reason for this change.

The only group I do feel sorry for is the corp free-for-all events

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#237 - 2014-10-30 19:11:12 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Convince your target to take their raven or w/e into a wormhole with you.


You're ****ing kidding me.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#238 - 2014-10-30 19:12:26 UTC
Gaan Cathal wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


So is corp jumping and NPC corp hugging but people keep labeling those as an exploit. It's almost as if people were labeling stuff they don't like about the game an exploit in the hope CCP will somehow think that way too. It's always fun to read 2 threads at the same time about 2 of those and see both side sling poo at each others by calling the other an exploiter while being wrong all the time.



Actually IIRC the specific case where a corp disbands and immediately reforms under the same name to avoid a Wardec is a petitionable exploit.


Nope. Carebears do it all the time. James315 does it hoping carebears will petition hoping to get it declared an exploit.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#239 - 2014-10-30 19:14:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Convince your target to take their raven or w/e into a wormhole with you.


You're ****ing kidding me.

You're in their corp, yes? You've gained their trust, yes? Start running wh ops and spread a little loot around. And then, kill a target when the opportune moment arises. Wouldn't be the first time this happened. Use some social engineering, or accept the consequence of shooting something in hisec. Dealer's choice.

Bottom line is you can adapt or quit. If you choose the latter, dibs on your stuff.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#240 - 2014-10-30 19:17:39 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Convince your target to take their raven or w/e into a wormhole with you.


You're ****ing kidding me.

You're in their corp, yes? You've gained their trust, yes? Start running wh ops and spread a little loot around. And then, kill a target when the opportune moment arises. Wouldn't be the first time this happened. Use some social engineering, or accept the consequence of shooting something in hisec. Dealer's choice.

Bottom line is you can adapt or quit. If you choose the latter, dibs on your stuff.


So... you actually think that PvP should require jumping through that many hoops, just to get the slightest chance to kill somebody? I just want to make sure you actually believe what you're telling me here, because I can barely believe it myself.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.