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Lowsec, sec status and you.
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Memran
F.U.N. Inc.
The Ancients.
#1 - 2011-12-11 21:03:08 UTC
Eve is all about pvp, but to a lot of would-be pvp-ers, the punishment for taking aggression is pretty severe. I'm talking about the security status hits you get for actually fighting in lowsec, which eventially lock you out of the convenience of hisec.

Sure, you can use alts to get stuff for your main, and to make isk, but to a lot of people (including myself) having to use a second account, or lose training time on the main character is not something that should be forced upon us.

I've been to -10 and back loads of times, and while it is not a difficult thing to do (with fast talk 5), the grind back up, is arduous, and not fun.

There are also on-going suicide ganks and greifing in hisec, which continue despite concord and the sec status hits they take.

Now, most people will (righly) say there should be some penalty for performing aggressive actions, but I would argue that in lowsec, where there is no concord ship presence, the penalties should be reduced, but at the same time, the punishment in hisec should be increased.

My suggestion is:
Reduce the security status hits for aggressive acts in lowsec.
Increase the security status hits for aggressive acts in hisec.
Increase the security status gain for killing NPC rats.
Possibly change the 'biggest rat per system per 15 minutes' feature to count all rats?

It is my hope that this will encourage more would-be pvp-ers into lowsec and possibly reduce some empire griefing and suicide ganking.

What are your thought on this?
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-12-11 21:15:56 UTC
Suck it up buttercup. You don't have to fire on anyone, you don't have to pod them. If you do...well them's thar tha consequences of your actions pilgrim (/John Wayne drawl). Sec status is an F*cking joke for a punishment if you think about it because its capped higher (in the negitive side) then positive sec status a little adversity at getting stuff with a different character seems to be worth far less then the "fun" you get to have at being a bad ass.

Now if they made ship PVP more harsh, I would be so for it. Like if they added high additional taxes for being negitive 10 to every market transaction, contract, and a service charge for instation trading just so you can't enjoy being a bad ass (like you buy a destroyer to gank a retriever but now its costing you 20 mill to the 5 mill retriever you just blew up). Makes you pick your targets for value instead of just a FPS mentality of "Now you see it, now you don't so DIAF!!!" by killing it like a CoD grunt comming around the corner. And you could fix that sec status just as easily as shooting more NPC... hey just because you don't find it fun shooting red crosses that it bores you to death and you put more value on player ships doesn't mean that KM should be so valuable that you get to brag about it while whining about the time invested to correct your sec status shooting boring ass NPC.
Memran
F.U.N. Inc.
The Ancients.
#3 - 2011-12-11 21:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Memran
Thanks for your comments.

There is no whining in my post. It is all points for discussion.

So you disagree, that is fair enough. Don't be an ass about it.

Next?
DHuncan
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#4 - 2011-12-12 19:17:39 UTC
EVE is not all about PVP. Thats just PVP talk. PVP is the less important thing in EVE but CCP knows is what atracts the big mass they need to pay the bills and keep this strategy game moving on. There is no need encourage anyone to PVP.

What did you say about CODE?
Memran
F.U.N. Inc.
The Ancients.
#5 - 2011-12-12 21:47:33 UTC
Thanks for your comment.

Personally I disagree with you (hence this thread) Smile

Even if my ideas were implemented, I think there would be next to zero impact on those who do not wish to partake in pvp, but a positive effect on those who do. Pirate
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#6 - 2011-12-12 22:50:17 UTC
Personally I disagree with you - the CCP sec status system is the only thing that keeps me from popping all those 10-day old thrashers I see in belts, and in that regard, it's working fine.

In general lowsec PvP, if you are shooting PvP fit targets and you are not in a blob, those targets will be shooting you back, and the sec hits for aggression are minimal. (You don't get a sec hit for ship destruction if they shoot you back before you you kill them) If you are shooting industrials or in a blob and do get the ship destruction sec hits, then I have no sympathy for you, you deserve the sec grind. :)

I can keep my sec above -2.0 with just killing the occasional BS I find in belts while hunting fine. While the sec system does have a detrimental effect on very young players, I believe they can get around it pretty well through getting their toes wet in FW or simply baiting so other people shoot them first.
Proteus Maximus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-12-13 00:20:11 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Suck it up buttercup. You don't have to fire on anyone, you don't have to pod them. If you do...well them's thar tha consequences of your actions pilgrim (/John Wayne drawl). Sec status is an F*cking joke for a punishment if you think about it because its capped higher (in the negitive side) then positive sec status a little adversity at getting stuff with a different character seems to be worth far less then the "fun" you get to have at being a bad ass.

Now if they made ship PVP more harsh, I would be so for it. Like if they added high additional taxes for being negitive 10 to every market transaction, contract, and a service charge for instation trading just so you can't enjoy being a bad ass (like you buy a destroyer to gank a retriever but now its costing you 20 mill to the 5 mill retriever you just blew up). Makes you pick your targets for value instead of just a FPS mentality of "Now you see it, now you don't so DIAF!!!" by killing it like a CoD grunt comming around the corner. And you could fix that sec status just as easily as shooting more NPC... hey just because you don't find it fun shooting red crosses that it bores you to death and you put more value on player ships doesn't mean that KM should be so valuable that you get to brag about it while whining about the time invested to correct your sec status shooting boring ass NPC.


Your anger...Why bro? WhaHiiiyyyy

If Goons were around when God said, "Let there be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#8 - 2011-12-13 00:29:09 UTC
DHuncan wrote:
EVE is not all about PVP. Thats just PVP talk. PVP is the less important thing in EVE but CCP knows is what atracts the big mass they need to pay the bills and keep this strategy game moving on. There is no need encourage anyone to PVP.

Wow. It's a rare sight see that much wrong condensed into such a small post. Lol
Rina Asanari
CitadeI
#9 - 2011-12-14 08:42:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
DHuncan wrote:
EVE is not all about PVP. Thats just PVP talk. PVP is the less important thing in EVE but CCP knows is what atracts the big mass they need to pay the bills and keep this strategy game moving on. There is no need encourage anyone to PVP.

Wow. It's a rare sight see that much wrong condensed into such a small post. Lol


That's what you think. Then please explain why there's so much PvE contents around like production, PI, missions... If you're right, why not cutting down EvE to a simple ship/module market and ISK payout per kill, and nothing else?
Jaketh Ivanes
Rigorous Rivals
#10 - 2011-12-14 08:59:56 UTC
@OP: You could select your targets more carefully. You are already punished more severly in high sec for commiting a crime compared to low sec, as you will lose your ship in high sec.

So I disagree with you proposed changes aswell Smile.
Citizen Smif
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-12-14 09:46:29 UTC
Rina Asanari wrote:
Tippia wrote:
DHuncan wrote:
EVE is not all about PVP. Thats just PVP talk. PVP is the less important thing in EVE but CCP knows is what atracts the big mass they need to pay the bills and keep this strategy game moving on. There is no need encourage anyone to PVP.

Wow. It's a rare sight see that much wrong condensed into such a small post. Lol


That's what you think. Then please explain why there's so much PvE contents around like production, PI, missions... If you're right, why not cutting down EvE to a simple ship/module market and ISK payout per kill, and nothing else?


facepalm.
DHuncan
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#12 - 2011-12-14 12:04:48 UTC
You dont really need long posts to say something that simple. The developments and skills and human resources involving an industrial production and market solution are not match to compare with the scissors-paper-stone (with few to almost-nothing skills) game of PVPing. I say no match in terms of complexity, strategy and effort. I would add fun but that is subjective and we should keep in the objective realmz when we say what is better. Otherwise we just say what I preffer. Is not the same. It was expected from those who see a stream of fun the click-click-pew-pew game to react defensively against those comments. Normally by bulling and trolling graciously in the forums they keep the real players under control.
PvP and crime add indeed realism and spice to the game but is just that, the seasoning of the main plate. Is also understandable that hordes of players lack the ability to dig just a little bit more. That is the main column of EVE economy in both worlds the isk echonomy and the real world ecnonomy. Like fly. Just made to be abundant food for the more developed kinds.

What did you say about CODE?
Ender Sai
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-12-14 12:38:07 UTC
Living la vida low-sec should not cripple you in high-sec. I think I can agree with this.

Your choice of fixes... I'm not so sure will solve low-secs problems though.

Low-sec really needs a complete reinvention (in terms of mechanics).

As an aside, Eve Industry is not quite the same as EvP because you're not competing against an AI, you're competing against other players for resources and the distribution of those resources to yield optimal profits (etc).

I'm afraid, insofar as your sec status goes....yeah, you'll have to suck it up I'm afraid. :P
Spawne32
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2011-12-15 23:55:10 UTC
Rina Asanari wrote:
Tippia wrote:
DHuncan wrote:
EVE is not all about PVP. Thats just PVP talk. PVP is the less important thing in EVE but CCP knows is what atracts the big mass they need to pay the bills and keep this strategy game moving on. There is no need encourage anyone to PVP.

Wow. It's a rare sight see that much wrong condensed into such a small post. Lol


That's what you think. Then please explain why there's so much PvE contents around like production, PI, missions... If you're right, why not cutting down EvE to a simple ship/module market and ISK payout per kill, and nothing else?


Do yourself a favor and just let your account expire next month and find a different game, cus thats exactly what im doing. The month that I have been in null space has been by far the most annoying game play i have ever had in this game. I play the game for relaxation, which is the point of view of most PVE players (which pvp players will call you a carebear for) and the sheer fact that I have to put in hours of "work" to play a game in null space with other players is driving me up a wall. It is more evident to me now the amount of life this game has left in it with the way CCP has been hanging things to benefit pvp players that I would be stunned if the game lasted another 5 years before massive layoffs come and the overall size of CCP is reduced.

Logical points, like the one you made are shot down consistently by the vast majority of players on the forums because the PVP players have the biggest mouths, which is a sad thing to see because that is what CCP hears and that is what they cater to. Whether people want to relize it or not eve is a PVE game, and the increasingly shrinking pve apect of the game is putting it in more danger then people realize.
Jade Mitch
A Problem with Authority
#15 - 2011-12-16 00:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Mitch
Since CONCORD only polices high sec, they should be oblivious to what happens in low sec and therefore no sec status penalty should apply to criminal activities in low sec. However, low sec is still part of empire space and, as such, should be protected by faction navies. You're faction standing (positive or negative) should determine whether you get help from or hurt by the faction's navy. If it's positive you get help, if it's negative, you get shot. A system's security level then functions as a penalty against that, restricting the size and number of navy ships coming to your aid or doom.

Still, I support increasing sec status penalties for pirates in high sec.
DHuncan
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#16 - 2011-12-16 00:58:03 UTC
Jade Mitch wrote:
Since CONCORD only polices high sec, they should be oblivious to what happens in low sec and therefore no sec status penalty should apply to criminal activities in low sec. However, low sec is still part of empire space and, as such, should be protected by faction navies. You're faction standing (positive or negative) should determine whether you get help from or hurt by the faction's navy. If it's positive you get help, if it's negative, you get shot. A system's security level then functions as a penalty against that, restricting the size and number of navy ships coming to your aid or doom.

Still, I support increasing sec status penalties for pirates in high sec.


Brilliant.

What did you say about CODE?
Miranda Etxebarria
Transgalactic Imports and Exports
#17 - 2011-12-16 01:13:52 UTC
Spawne32 wrote:
Logical points, like the one you made are shot down consistently by the vast majority of players on the forums because the PVP players have the biggest mouths, which is a sad thing to see because that is what CCP hears and that is what they cater to. Whether people want to relize it or not eve is a PVE game, and the increasingly shrinking pve apect of the game is putting it in more danger then people realize.


Not only is EVE focused on PVP, it also rewards co-operation. Want to mine? Get some friends (or hire some) to protect you from gankers. Hauling? Same story. The PVE aspects of EVE are, compared to many other MMORPGs, pretty scarce and underdeveloped. Other elements, such as trade and industry, are completely dependent on PVP. So no, there are plenty of games with PVP-flagging, arenas and the like, EVE was intended (as proved by the commercials) to be a harsh and unforgivable place.

Sec status seems to be working as intended. I wouldn't mind it all that much if they were to give heftier penalties for PVP in high-sec, and I'm pretty sure most gankers wouldn't either.
Spawne32
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2011-12-16 01:52:35 UTC
Miranda Etxebarria wrote:
Spawne32 wrote:
Logical points, like the one you made are shot down consistently by the vast majority of players on the forums because the PVP players have the biggest mouths, which is a sad thing to see because that is what CCP hears and that is what they cater to. Whether people want to relize it or not eve is a PVE game, and the increasingly shrinking pve apect of the game is putting it in more danger then people realize.


Not only is EVE focused on PVP, it also rewards co-operation. Want to mine? Get some friends (or hire some) to protect you from gankers. Hauling? Same story. The PVE aspects of EVE are, compared to many other MMORPGs, pretty scarce and underdeveloped. Other elements, such as trade and industry, are completely dependent on PVP. So no, there are plenty of games with PVP-flagging, arenas and the like, EVE was intended (as proved by the commercials) to be a harsh and unforgivable place.

Sec status seems to be working as intended. I wouldn't mind it all that much if they were to give heftier penalties for PVP in high-sec, and I'm pretty sure most gankers wouldn't either.


Eve's new focus on PVP is precisely the reason the game is so severely unbalanced now then in previous years, and continues to get even more unbalanced as time goes on. The consistent focus on updating the game with new features that promote pvp are the reason behind CCP losing accounts on a proggressively downward trend and it is even more evident in gameplay. The top half tier of ships and items above battlecruisers have been rendered utterly useless in most areas of gameplay strictly because of the fact that there is no protection from losing them in pve vs the cost it takes to get them. While you might LIVE eve, most others do not, and the time and devotion it takes in this game to use "shiney stuff" is not worth the risk anymore. The game is so far unbalanced at this point that the style of gameplay has gone from complex and awesome to cheap and annoying. Tier 3 battlecruisers, bubbles, suicide ganking, all evidence of this new "cheap and annoying" style of play, which is driving off players. If thats how CCP wants the game to be played, then they need to start recommending people spend their money elsewhere. I didnt write a echeck for 55 dollars for plex and 14.99 a month since 2008 to be aggrivated, irritated, annoyed, and feel like im spending another 4 hours on the job at work when playing a video game, thats what you people forget.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#19 - 2011-12-16 20:28:17 UTC
Not a bad idea, though not saying I support it yet (it warrants more though on my part). As far as PvP, I over all agree, but combat is only one form of it. One downside is that it lowers the repurcusions of what keeps people out of lowsec, and we want more people out there.

Btw, in nullsec your standings go up if you rat for ISK. It might be a better place for you.
Spork Witch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-12-16 20:43:59 UTC
Rina Asanari wrote:
Tippia wrote:
DHuncan wrote:
EVE is not all about PVP. Thats just PVP talk. PVP is the less important thing in EVE but CCP knows is what atracts the big mass they need to pay the bills and keep this strategy game moving on. There is no need encourage anyone to PVP.

Wow. It's a rare sight see that much wrong condensed into such a small post. Lol


That's what you think. Then please explain why there's so much PvE contents around like production, PI, missions... If you're right, why not cutting down EvE to a simple ship/module market and ISK payout per kill, and nothing else?

If you think production and industry in EVE aren't PvP, then you're even newer than your employment history says lol
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