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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1921 - 2014-10-29 23:41:15 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Not just like subcaps. Market for subcaps is much better.

No, it isn't. If you put up a capital at not-******** prices (i.e. you actually embrace the whole concept of "a firesale", then it will sell.


Andy Landen wrote:
Subcaps fit packaged inside jump freighters. Subcaps have much faster align speeds. Frigates and cruisers even fit inside fast aligning deep space transports. Subcaps cost much less. So no, not at all "just like everyone else."

Doesn't matter (since he'll be travelling the same way the JF is anyways, more or less), doesn't matter (since the carrier dude'll be cynoing out, which negates any "align speed issues"), doesn't matter (since he'll be skipping what the DST'll be going through anyways), and doesn't matter (there are subcaps which cost roughly the same). So yes, it's just like everyone else. He's not special just because he's got a capital ship.

Andy Landen wrote:
And technically, he did not get himself in that situation. Others created the situation. Seeing the mess that others might bring by creating such situations, he realized the possibility and kept his caps close to NPC null sec so that it become uncommon to see caps out in deep null sec where caps *should* be.

So he's a pussy. Good thing there are other cap pilots who aren't pussies, who will happily live >10ly outside of lowsec/NPC null.

You don't design a game around pussies.

Andy Landen wrote:
Yes, no matter how you slice it, this change will hurt cap pilots that are out beyond 5-10ly from null sec. And that is the real story of this jump fatigue proposal. Think harder, else Eve may get stuck with even bigger problems: deep null sec ruled by subcaps, caps becoming less popular, and importing fees going through the roof with the loss of carriers for moving more than 5 ly every 45 min (for those few interested in playing the waiting game).

Oh no, fights'll be performed with ships which the average chucklefuck can easily afford to lose, and which won't require escalations up to trillions of isk on field just to counter. However shall we survive this blight on the game?

And caps becoming less popular? Hey, if people'll use caps to augment subcaps, instead of wholly replacing subcaps, then I'll call that a win, especially since it'll most likely mean there won't be an automatic escalation path of either standing down or escalating with dreads which is escalated with supers/titans, which is escalated with more titans, and before you know it you have a 4k fight with trillions of isk on the field and a fight which sucks and goes on till downtime.

And import fees going through the roof? JFs are barely affected, you numbnut, and carriers are only used for moving fitted ships, if that. And so what
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1922 - 2014-10-29 23:44:59 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Niskin wrote:

Lets say you make a 5ly jump, your delay and fatigue are set to 6. So you must wait 6 minutes to jump no matter what. After that 6 minutes is up you are at 5.4 fatigue. First off, at that point, you would not jump again unless it was an emergency. Ideally you wouldn't jump again for another 45 minutes as it would take that long to get fatigue to 0.9. Once it's below 1 you get the easy low fatigue equal to 1 + ly jumped. If fatigue is above 1 it's the current fatigue time multiplied by 1 + ly. So it's really not hard. Don't jump when your fatigue is above 1 unless you have to, always. Even if you have to make an emergency jump right after the first timer is up you are looking at a max of 32.4 fatigue for a 5ly jump. You will then have a 5.4 minute cooldown and 5.4 hours of fatigue...

Alright then, let's expose CCP's jump fatigue for what it really is before a potentially very big mistake in the direction of Eve is committed.

A carrier player's corp is kicked from his alliance without warning. Little Bobby leaves 0DD carrying what he can for himself and his corp mates in his carrier. He plots the fastest route to an NPC null station in Curse, UW9. Little Bobby reads 27.67 ly and 20.7k isotopes over two jumps according to dotlan and he only needs one cyno in enemy space (now that he is neutral to the coalition). But then remembers that the new system of jump fatigue changes his situation substantially. He is set on moving what he can for self and corp because remaining months to sell a 2 BILLION ISK carrier for potential 500 MILLION ISK LOSS also costs him substantial play time and his corp needs his help.

In order to move the carrier and friend's stuff, his journey requires 7 cynos (6 in hostile territory without dockable stations!), 45 minutes of waiting in space (for the jump fatigue to expire) in EACH hostile system, 30.18 ly of travel consuming 22.6k isotopes according to dotlan.

He works with his corp to fit off another corp mate's carrier for a cloak at a safe spot in the starting system, and to get 7 small pos in place in enemy territory for security during the 45 minute waits (do the math: 7*45 min). The corp struggles with time (at least 5.25 hours in fatigue wait time alone!!), buying poses and pos fuel on hostile markets (docking rights) and moving and onlining pos's in hostile territory.

They all promise each other to never go through that again and they set the maximum distance from NPC null for any future home at 5-10 ly (DR-) for a maximum of one midpoint and a large hit to jump fatigue.

THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MESSED UP! ABORT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!

I see this is a goon conspiracy so that our dear leader can hold everyone's stuff hostage, ensuring our obedience...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#1923 - 2014-10-29 23:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
Andy Landen wrote:
allot of silly stuff!


Andy, dude, stop it... you've been countered on every one of your suggestions and you've ignored or tried to explain away the valid counters to it, then you go right back to your examples..

every thing you continue to repeat adnauseum about getting kicked from an alliance can happen now, and in some cases the person may be too far away to jump his stuff out.
this isn't anything new and it's not a valid argument against what CCP is going to do.
you talk about "your skills" well, I hate to be the one to say it, but you aren't the only one affected by this, nor are you the only one who has trained skills that are for ships whose roles and abilities are about to change.

I admire your spunk, don't take this reply the wrong way, but give it a rest brother, what you're suggesting is worse than CCP's idea as has been stated in repeated replies to you.

when you come up with something that might actually be viable and not hurt gameplay, please share, we will all be happy to listen, but please, until then, STOP, please.

o/
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1924 - 2014-10-30 01:27:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Celly S wrote:

Andy, dude, stop it... you've been countered on every one of your suggestions and you've ignored or tried to explain away the valid counters to it, then you go right back to your examples..

every thing you continue to repeat adnauseum about getting kicked from an alliance can happen now, and in some cases the person may be too far away to jump his stuff out.
this isn't anything new and it's not a valid argument against what CCP is going to do.
you talk about "your skills" well, I hate to be the one to say it, but you aren't the only one affected by this, nor are you the only one who has trained skills that are for ships whose roles and abilities are about to change.

I admire your spunk, don't take this reply the wrong way, but give it a rest brother, what you're suggesting is worse than CCP's idea as has been stated in repeated replies to you.

when you come up with something that might actually be viable and not hurt gameplay, please share, we will all be happy to listen, but please, until then, STOP, please.

o/
Celly Smunt

The counters were half wrong and half-"yeah, so what, deal with it!"

My example has been seen many times and there are many other different examples which I will not detail for the sake of hearing the old, "yeah, serves those big meanie caps anyway. stick it to them harder."

My arguments are very valid, but some players would easily dismiss them simply because it does not support their agenda.

Never said it only affected me. Many people will have to take a hard look at this change. No one will like the consequences, CCP included. Difference with cap skills is that no other subcap ship requires years of dedicated training for level 5 skills, and so no other ship type is affected nearly as strongly as the cap.

Just in case anyone asks the stupid questions: No cap player will give away their stuff for free when they leave the game, No cap player will firesale their cap for stupid prices, No cap player will suicide their cap on the gates, and No cap player will do all the other stuff that you are hoping these nerfs will try to make cap pilots do. They will either make the sacrifices of time or strategy to safeguard their assets, or they will lose interest and leave without throwing a single ISK to you who nerfed their ships to the ground.

I have said what needed to be said and if it falls on deaf ears and Eve collapses, then so be it. It will stand as a warning that no player should dedicate years of training in Eve toward anything ever again. If they will play favorites in this way, they will continue do it again and again just as easily and just as carelessly to any other ship or repeatedly more to cap ships until they are nothing more than low sec gate guns or just the billboards next to those gate guns. Let Eve be warned that your training means nothing after we move in this direction. This is not just a typical game balancing tweak. This is a complete overhaul and probably just the beginning of the cap nerfs and game breaking.

How about we get to the age-old pos or other broken stuff that has been majorly broken for over a decade and stop trying to kill entire capital ship classes just to bandage over the supercapital mistakes of the past!

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Niskin
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#1925 - 2014-10-30 01:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Niskin
Andy Landen wrote:

PS: Niskin, not trying to be hard on you, but you could have been even less of a douche and paid the carrier pilots by the light year. I had no issue making multiple jumps for others when they at least covered their share of the fuel costs. But if you had actually paid for both fuel and time, you would have still had your ships and not lost any ISK, you would not have felt bad at all, and you actually wouldn't have been a douche. Ah, the price of not carrying/paying your own weight. So no, you did not have to firesale at break even or deeply discounted prices if you had just been willing to carry your own weight.


I have offered to pay for fuel costs before, most times my well off corpmates would decline it and I appreciated that since I was broke (from buying all those ships and fitting them) anyway. But mostly it was about wasting their time, they had other stuff to do. I don't want to cause burnout. Any idiot with a few skillpoints in trade can cover a decent section of the region and clear stuff out. T2 mods sell like hotcakes in null, most popular hulls do too. Plus it's good to have spare parts spread across the galaxy. I used to fly with guys who would lose a ship far from home and just happen to have something useful tucked away nearby. Some would sell none of them, just keep it all. You never know where in the galaxy you will end up...

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1926 - 2014-10-30 02:24:06 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
The counters were half wrong and half-"yeah, so what, deal with it!"

Please, tell us more how the counters were "half wrong".

Andy Landen wrote:
My arguments are very valid, but some players would easily dismiss them simply because it does not support their agenda.

Please tell me more about what my agenda is, considering I am a cap pilot myself, and I am also affected by the change just as much as any other cap pilot.

Andy Landen wrote:
Never said it only affected me. Many people will have to take a hard look at this change. No one will like the consequences, CCP included. Difference with cap skills is that no other subcap ship requires years of dedicated training for level 5 skills, and so no other ship type is affected nearly as strongly as the cap.

I'm pretty sure I'll be liking the consequences of these changes just fine.

Andy Landen wrote:
Just in case anyone asks the stupid questions: No cap player will give away their stuff for free when they leave the game, No cap player will firesale their cap for stupid prices, No cap player will suicide their cap on the gates, and No cap player will do all the other stuff that you are hoping these nerfs will try to make cap pilots do. They will either make the sacrifices of time or strategy to safeguard their assets, or they will lose interest and leave without throwing a single ISK to you who nerfed their ships to the ground.

I have said what needed to be said and if it falls on deaf ears and Eve collapses, then so be it. It will stand as a warning that no player should dedicate years of training in Eve toward anything ever again. If they will play favorites in this way, they will continue do it again and again just as easily and just as carelessly to any other ship or repeatedly more to cap ships until they are nothing more than low sec gate guns or just the billboards next to those gate guns. Let Eve be warned that your training means nothing after we move in this direction. This is not just a typical game balancing tweak. This is a complete overhaul and probably just the beginning of the cap nerfs and game breaking.

I love to burst your bubble, but caps are firesold all the time. Hell, I sold a naglfar hull at 150m below the lowest sales price a while ago because it was on the other side of the universe and all I wanted to do was get the money and deathclone back to deklein to continue my asset consolidation/cleanup.

And it seems to me like a large majority of the eve universe are actually doing what you will not, i.e. adapt to the changes, actually deal with the fact that CCP are making eve just ever so slightly more strategic, and they're doing so in a way which sucks less than any of the suggestions I've seen you make so far in this thread.

And I'm starting to think that you're either a troll, or you haven't actually paid much attention to how EVE works and is constantly modified to "play favorites" with something because something else has been shown to be game-breaking and thus needs to be toned down ever so slightly. We've seen this with the speed nerf, we've seen this with remote AOE DD, AOE DD, structure DD, subcap focused DD, missiles, sentry drones, etc etc etc etc. Now it's the caps' turn, because apparently someone decided to derp around in 200-300 carrier engagements, thinking it's "just the way it is"..

And the caps rebalance won't kill EVE, in fact not doing it would've helped make sure EVE actually did die.

Andy Landen wrote:
How about we get to the age-old pos or other broken stuff that has been majorly broken for over a decade and stop trying to kill entire capital ship classes just to bandage over the supercapital mistakes of the past!

They're not killing the caps ship classes, caps will be just fine after this. The only people who are running around screaming like headless chickens over this change are people who've decided to lean too hard on caps as a crutch, just like BoB did back in the remote AOE DD, AOE DD, T2 advantage, speed nerfs etc etc etc etc.

If you'd stop bashing your head against the wall and actually look and think about it for more than a second (beyond thinking up even worse alternatives strategy-wise, just so you can make sure your archonball gets across the entire universe in a very short period of time indeed), and you'll see that the changes are good and they will add a strategic depth to the game which just wasn't there before, and how your suggestions would do the absolute opposite.

But that'd imply you could actually detatch yourself from your own severe biases towards caps/supers/titans.
Niskin
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#1927 - 2014-10-30 02:30:51 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
My arguments are very valid, but some players would easily dismiss them simply because it does not support their agenda.


I don't have an agenda, I just think your idea is bad.

Andy Landen wrote:
Just in case anyone asks the stupid questions: No cap player will give away their stuff for free when they leave the game, No cap player will firesale their cap for stupid prices, No cap player will suicide their cap on the gates, and No cap player will do all the other stuff that you are hoping these nerfs will try to make cap pilots do. They will either make the sacrifices of time or strategy to safeguard their assets, or they will lose interest and leave without throwing a single ISK to you who nerfed their ships to the ground.


Only time will tell, but I think the players will do what they have to do to get by. If that means selling a cap for a loss then it will happen. If that means making a run through some gates or wormholes with whatever force they have then it will happen. In EVE, if you are facing long odds sometimes you just have to go for it and risk going out in a blaze of glory. Just make sure somebody flies the BPOs out in a cloaky or something.

Andy Landen wrote:
I have said what needed to be said and if it falls on deaf ears and Eve collapses, then so be it. It will stand as a warning that no player should dedicate years of training in Eve toward anything ever again. If they will play favorites in this way, they will continue do it again and again just as easily and just as carelessly to any other ship or repeatedly more to cap ships until they are nothing more than low sec gate guns or just the billboards next to those gate guns. Let Eve be warned that your training means nothing after we move in this direction. This is not just a typical game balancing tweak. This is a complete overhaul and probably just the beginning of the cap nerfs and game breaking.


Hold on I have some cheese to go with that.

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1928 - 2014-10-30 05:44:38 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
How about we get to the age-old pos or other broken stuff that has been majorly broken for over a decade and stop trying to kill entire capital ship classes just to bandage over the supercapital mistakes of the past!

They're not killing the caps ship classes, caps will be just fine after this. The only people who are running around screaming like headless chickens over this change are people who've decided to lean too hard on caps as a crutch, just like BoB did back in the remote AOE DD, AOE DD, T2 advantage, speed nerfs etc etc etc etc.

If you'd stop bashing your head against the wall and actually look and think about it for more than a second (beyond thinking up even worse alternatives strategy-wise, just so you can make sure your archonball gets across the entire universe in a very short period of time indeed), and you'll see that the changes are good and they will add a strategic depth to the game which just wasn't there before, and how your suggestions would do the absolute opposite.

But that'd imply you could actually detatch yourself from your own severe biases towards caps/supers/titans.

Oohhhh snap, shots fired, you're noting that they may have potential conflicts of interest due to their associations with caphavers.

Which I suppose is the same of the other capblobbers in the world. The cfc

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1929 - 2014-10-30 05:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Lord TGR wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:

I have said what needed to be said and if it falls on deaf ears and Eve collapses, then so be it. It will stand as a warning that no player should dedicate years of training in Eve toward anything ever again. If they will play favorites in this way, they will continue do it again and again just as easily and just as carelessly to any other ship or repeatedly more to cap ships until they are nothing more than low sec gate guns or just the billboards next to those gate guns. Let Eve be warned that your training means nothing after we move in this direction. This is not just a typical game balancing tweak. This is a complete overhaul and probably just the beginning of the cap nerfs and game breaking.

And I'm starting to think that you're either a troll, or you haven't actually paid much attention to how EVE works and is constantly modified to "play favorites" with something because something else has been shown to be game-breaking and thus needs to be toned down ever so slightly. We've seen this with the speed nerf, we've seen this with remote AOE DD, AOE DD, structure DD, subcap focused DD, missiles, sentry drones, etc etc etc etc. Now it's the caps' turn, because apparently someone decided to derp around in 200-300 carrier engagements, thinking it's "just the way it is"..

It certainly wasn't the beautfful wreckingballfleet of jumpdrive-having only ships of a coalition that exists to destroy us that was everywhere all the time basically bragging about their immunity due to their isk on field.

no, it was just the obscene like cfc capitalblobber fleets with hundreds of supercaps logged out nearby. and multiple subcap fleets ranging from frigates, cruisers and battleships. Those were just disgusting and wrong.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#1930 - 2014-10-30 05:59:02 UTC
Wow! This thread is still going strong. The horse is dead, the change is coming, work with it or park the Capitals. Though I do not agree with a lot of what is coming... nuff-said

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
Anthar Thebess
#1931 - 2014-10-30 08:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
..::: CCP Make Eve Even Bigger :::..


All "outer" gate connection between nullsec regions should become unusable for capitals.
For example :
Cobalt Edge <-> Tenal
Fountain <-> Delve
Period Basis <-> Paragon Soul
etc.

(And all similar you can see on this eve visualization )
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/universe


  • Will this limit the possibility of player PVP ?

Yes but only on supercapital and capital level, subcapital and roaming will be uninterrupted


  • Then why this will be good for eve?

Yes as it will again limit the effective "range" for all big blue blobs.
They base their power projection on capitals and super capitals. With this change more space will be out of their reach.
Capital fleet again can be countered by bigger capital fleet - and i think players and CCP want to brake the N+1 tactics once and for all.
Capital bloobs , especially slowcats will be still untouchable because of the ehp and remote repair abilities.

Just to remind , all current changes are made to limit teleportation of endless capital blobs around eve.
5LY range change for them will help, but let just simple comparison to current sov owners and potential attackers proves one thing.

From one side we have people having almost unlimited income, fund reserves and own this space just to rent it. On the other side we have groups that where bloobed and denied any serious income for very long time, and new groups of players.
Siege of enemy space will be as good as many resources you have to do it.

Some regions will be accessible for capitals only by very long route, and not only by using gate shortcut.
We will get distinct "pockets" of eve universe where totally different groups can easily reside , and have trouble to project any (super) capital force outside their boundaries.

After current changes :
Capital Bloob moving from Period Basis to Omist:
- 1 gate PB <-> Paragon Soul
- 1 Jump + 1 gate to make into next regional crossing
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Aeon,544/G-M4GK:C-PEWN
- 1 Gate Paragon Soul <-> Feythabolis
- 1 Cross Feythabolis in 1 jump
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Aeon,544/D4-2XN:6-ELQP
- 1 Gate Between Feythabolist and Omist

Total travel time for unstoppable capital blob : <2h
Time needed to take station system (all timers ) ~ week

What i propose will make this unstoppable capital bloob to take route :
(just to simplify i will just list the regions)
- Period Basis
- Querious
- Khanid
- Tash-Murkon
- Catch
- Impass
- Omist

Total Travel time : %#$!#!#!
Time needed to take station system (all timers ) ~ week

Remember that we are not talking about using subcapital fleets, but capital bloobs having extreme EHP and remote repair abilities.

If someone decides to move on this route using subcapital fleet , he will be still capable of doing this.

Lets also do not underestimate what this will mean to eve map. "Closing" those connections for capital movements creates many new options.
What is also important it makes EVE even Bigger , encourages people to have less blue , without interrupting day to day player movement.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1932 - 2014-10-30 10:44:07 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
I think it would be useful when considering support of this jump fatigue/BO buff initiative for each player's vote to be accompanied by the number of skill points in non-logistics cap, logistics caps, BO, and subcaps, and how much they like BO or caps. I think the correlations on bias would be strong. It is easy to turn a blind eye to non-logistics caps when you have no investment in it, esp. when you have large investment in BLOPS. Subcap players easily outnumber capital ship players.

PS: There is no bias between long distance and local jumps because jumps across 20ly are just the same as multiple local jumps shuttling between a couple systems adding up to 20ly.

The problem is combat across regions, not travel across regions. So how about this proposal: Jump fatigue is turned into Combat fatigue where players are not allowed to take combat actions until the timer expires. Correlating the time to the total distance jumped in a given time period seems quite reasonable. And jump distance remain unchanged for ALL ships. Let's stay focused on the problem of mitigating the worst case scenario of who could take part in a given battle by distance for FC combat planning.


At this point I sincerely hope you are just trolling with this idea. It's day what that you've been relentlessly pushing it.... day 26. So, 26 days of multiple people telling you your idea is teh suxors and no one (that's NO ONE) even close to agreeing with you. A sign of insanity (in real life) is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

Hello.... eve to Andy..... your idea is bad, dumb, no one (NO ONE) thinks it's good.... let it go dude. You've driven your forum cred into the dirt already. I'll agree there is no where for you to go but up, but going up isn't going to happen with this idea.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1933 - 2014-10-30 12:43:54 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

At this point I sincerely hope you are just trolling with this idea. It's day what that you've been relentlessly pushing it.... day 26. So, 26 days of multiple people telling you your idea is teh suxors and no one (that's NO ONE) even close to agreeing with you. A sign of insanity (in real life) is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

Hello.... eve to Andy..... your idea is bad, dumb, no one (NO ONE) thinks it's good.... let it go dude. You've driven your forum cred into the dirt already. I'll agree there is no where for you to go but up, but going up isn't going to happen with this idea.

I never troll. I never joke about Eve proposals. I hear a few vocal players claim to represent the majority of Eve, but I do not just accept your claims as true without evidence. Before you can claim that everyone is on your side and no one opposes this move, first go and collect the votes to substantiate it. I don't see tens of thousands of "likes" on your posts when you say you like or dislike various things. Your basis for imagining that you represent the views of so many seems a bit arrogant and ignorant. Just because some of my posts have only received a couple of "likes" doesn't mean that those are the only people who agree with me.

My guess is that most of Eve is oblivious to the impending changes, and when they log in the first time and try to jump, they will be in for a VERY rude surprise which will likely REALLY **** them off, if not put them into extreme danger and maybe even make them rage-quit. And if anyone stops for a moment to consider whether they should just swallow this, let them be warned that this first step sets the precedence for even stronger biases and nerfs. Unlike the previous game tweaks which modify bonuses, this one kills both bonuses and skills (for instance in the case of a carrier: reducing jump distance from 13ly down to 5ly, eliminating the benefit of the jump cap skill with jump delays, and many others). At least when the supercarrier was nerfed on its drones, the player could sell it and use the full value of his skills in a carrier. With this nerf, I cannot use my carrier 5 skills in a jump freighter or a BLOPS, not to even mention their substantially different roles. I could care less about the numbers of players which may decide to "settle" with these changes, but if they care about the game, I will confirm that Eve will pay much less attention to them if they stay. Because if they stay, then they obviously don't feel very strongly about the changes. In the end, the corporate bottom-line is always the profit. In the end, our bottom-line is to go with what feels right to us as individuals and settling does not cut it.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1934 - 2014-10-30 13:28:07 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
I never troll. I never joke about Eve proposals. I hear a few vocal players claim to represent the majority of Eve, but I do not just accept your claims as true without evidence.

You mean like your proclamations that this will KILL EVE and if ONLY THE SHEEPLE KNEW?

Andy Landen wrote:
Before you can claim that everyone is on your side and no one opposes this move, first go and collect the votes to substantiate it. I don't see tens of thousands of "likes" on your posts when you say you like or dislike various things. Your basis for imagining that you represent the views of so many seems a bit arrogant and ignorant. Just because some of my posts have only received a couple of "likes" doesn't mean that those are the only people who agree with me.

If you look through this thread, and the previous thread, then you'll see that a majority are fine with the cap change itself, but might have some reservations on a few minor points of it. Most of them have been addressed, the rest are people (like you) who seem to be living in the past and refuse to change.

Andy Landen wrote:
My guess is that most of Eve is oblivious to the impending changes, and when they log in the first time and try to jump, they will be in for a VERY rude surprise which will likely REALLY **** them off, if not put them into extreme danger and maybe even make them rage-quit.

If people haven't caught on to the impending jumpdrive nerfs, then they are either
1) deaf
2) dumb
3) blind

or just really shouldn't be flying caps in the first place, as it places a much higher emphasis on due dilligence and working with others than anything else in the game.

Andy Landen wrote:
And if anyone stops for a moment to consider whether they should just swallow this, let them be warned that this first step sets the precedence for even stronger biases and nerfs. Unlike the previous game tweaks which modify bonuses, this one kills both bonuses and skills (for instance in the case of a carrier: reducing jump distance from 13ly down to 5ly, eliminating the benefit of the jump cap skill with jump delays, and many others). At least when the supercarrier was nerfed on its drones, the player could sell it and use the full value of his skills in a carrier. With this nerf, I cannot use my carrier 5 skills in a jump freighter or a BLOPS, not to even mention their substantially different roles. I could care less about the numbers of players which may decide to "settle" with these changes, but if they care about the game, I will confirm that Eve will pay much less attention to them if they stay. Because if they stay, then they obviously don't feel very strongly about the changes. In the end, the corporate bottom-line is always the profit. In the end, our bottom-line is to go with what feels right to us as individuals and settling does not cut it.

The funny thing about this ranting tirade is that if CCP had implemented caps like they're going to end up as in the first place, you wouldn't be thinking twice about it. You would be fine with it, because that's how they'd be designed. The problem you have is that you've grown used to the way things work, and you're unwilling to change the way you work in-game. I feel sorry for you.

As for the carrier 5 skill, that's hardly a problem at all. The only change you have to make when using it is you have to do more jumps, go through more chokepoints and spend more time. This is all as designed, and this is how they should've been operating in the first place, and I'm sorry you don't seem to be able to grasp this. I guess you should spend more time playing strategy games, maybe you'll start to understand it then, instead of ratting with a carrier: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17054993

TL/DR: it is only worthless if you refuse to adapt to the changes.
Niskin
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#1935 - 2014-10-30 13:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Niskin
It's story time kids!

Back in 2007 when I was a young space lass, I was just getting to the point where I had trained my first cruiser skill to 5. It was Minmatar because I'm Minmatar and rust is cool. So I had to decide which T2 cruiser skill to train first, HAC or Recon? I chose Logistics. Now in those days Logistics ships weren't like they are today. They were basically T1 hulls with T1(ish) resists and lame bonuses. Never the less I wanted to be a healer because that's what I had enjoyed in other MMO's. With a wild look in my eyes I started training that skill all the way to 5.

Sometime after I had started training the 5th rank CCP announced they were going to overhaul Logi's. They fixed the resists and hulls to T2 levels, fixed the bonuses, it was awesome... at first. But then the unthinkable happened! These ships which I had been buying for 30m each, because nobody wanted them, suddenly jumped to 80m and more. And they've only gone up from there. If you look at current prices they are around 150m.

Anyway, when that happened I got really mad, it was like CCP knew I was broke and made the changes just to prevent me from using Logistics 5. A skill I trained about a month for just the last rank. That's a lot when you are a young player in null, dodging bubbles, hoping you still have those +2's tomorrow. Maybe someday even the dream of +3's or +4's. As it turns out, Logistics 5 is completely useless for other hulls, who knew?

So I did what any other completely reasonable, non-whiny person would do... I bitched up a freaking storm and never flew a logistics ship again. I mean screw that, CCP ain't got **** on me, they can't tell me how to play. I'm hardcore!

The moral of this story is: you can't trust the system.

(So i took my Logistics 5 skill... and threw it on the ground)

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1936 - 2014-10-30 14:18:40 UTC
You are the ugliest lass I have ever seen. I forget what the rest of your post was about.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1937 - 2014-10-30 14:29:19 UTC
Niskin wrote:
It's story time kids!

Back in 2007 when I was a young space lass, I was just getting to the point where I had trained my first cruiser skill to 5. It was Minmatar because I'm Minmatar and rust is cool. So I had to decide which T2 cruiser skill to train first, HAC or Recon? I chose Logistics. Now in those days Logistics ships weren't like they are today. They were basically T1 hulls with T1(ish) resists and lame bonuses. Never the less I wanted to be a healer because that's what I had enjoyed in other MMO's. With a wild look in my eyes I started training that skill all the way to 5.

Sometime after I had started training the 5th rank CCP announced they were going to overhaul Logi's. They fixed the resists and hulls to T2 levels, fixed the bonuses, it was awesome... at first. But then the unthinkable happened! These ships which I had been buying for 30m each, because nobody wanted them, suddenly jumped to 80m and more. And they've only gone up from there. If you look at current prices they are around 150m.

Anyway, when that happened I got really mad, it was like CCP knew I was broke and made the changes just to prevent me from using Logistics 5. A skill I trained about a month for just the last rank. That's a lot when you are a young player in null, dodging bubbles, hoping you still have those +2's tomorrow. Maybe someday even the dream of +3's or +4's. As it turns out, Logistics 5 is completely useless for other hulls, who knew?

So I did what any other completely reasonable, non-whiny person would do... I bitched up a freaking storm and never flew a logistics ship again. I mean screw that, CCP ain't got **** on me, they can't tell me how to play. I'm hardcore!

The moral of this story is: you can't trust the system.

(So i took my Logistics 5 skill... and threw it on the ground)

Yeah, this change makes a ubnch of jumpdrive-having ships a lot cheaper, so it is a great time to buy a ship that can be doomsdayed (soon: even in lowsec) by titanblob-havers

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1938 - 2014-10-30 14:35:25 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Celly S wrote:

Andy, dude, stop it... you've been countered on every one of your suggestions and you've ignored or tried to explain away the valid counters to it, then you go right back to your examples..

every thing you continue to repeat adnauseum about getting kicked from an alliance can happen now, and in some cases the person may be too far away to jump his stuff out.
this isn't anything new and it's not a valid argument against what CCP is going to do.
you talk about "your skills" well, I hate to be the one to say it, but you aren't the only one affected by this, nor are you the only one who has trained skills that are for ships whose roles and abilities are about to change.

I admire your spunk, don't take this reply the wrong way, but give it a rest brother, what you're suggesting is worse than CCP's idea as has been stated in repeated replies to you.

when you come up with something that might actually be viable and not hurt gameplay, please share, we will all be happy to listen, but please, until then, STOP, please.

o/
Celly Smunt

The counters were half wrong and half-"yeah, so what, deal with it!"

My example has been seen many times and there are many other different examples which I will not detail for the sake of hearing the old, "yeah, serves those big meanie caps anyway. stick it to them harder."

My arguments are very valid, but some players would easily dismiss them simply because it does not support their agenda.

Never said it only affected me. Many people will have to take a hard look at this change. No one will like the consequences, CCP included. Difference with cap skills is that no other subcap ship requires years of dedicated training for level 5 skills, and so no other ship type is affected nearly as strongly as the cap.

Just in case anyone asks the stupid questions: No cap player will give away their stuff for free when they leave the game, No cap player will firesale their cap for stupid prices, No cap player will suicide their cap on the gates, and No cap player will do all the other stuff that you are hoping these nerfs will try to make cap pilots do. They will either make the sacrifices of time or strategy to safeguard their assets, or they will lose interest and leave without throwing a single ISK to you who nerfed their ships to the ground.

I have said what needed to be said and if it falls on deaf ears and Eve collapses, then so be it. It will stand as a warning that no player should dedicate years of training in Eve toward anything ever again. If they will play favorites in this way, they will continue do it again and again just as easily and just as carelessly to any other ship or repeatedly more to cap ships until they are nothing more than low sec gate guns or just the billboards next to those gate guns. Let Eve be warned that your training means nothing after we move in this direction. This is not just a typical game balancing tweak. This is a complete overhaul and probably just the beginning of the cap nerfs and game breaking.

How about we get to the age-old pos or other broken stuff that has been majorly broken for over a decade and stop trying to kill entire capital ship classes just to bandage over the supercapital mistakes of the past!


Your arguments are valid. I'm don't agree with them, but they are (for the most part) valid arguments. I don't think anyone has any problems with your arguments - after all they are yours.

It's your idea of how to 'fix' the game that is just plain horrible. It doesn't fix anything. It would make game play horrible. It would make flying capitals horrible. It would make babies cry and puppies would wander off never to be seen again.

We're not deaf and I'll guarantee you that eve won't collapse if we don't succumb to your ideas. The more I re read you posts I see a patern of you being more than willing to decide what is and is not good for other people. You are comfortable stating your suppositions as fact. You predict the future actions of the masses with ease. You come up with a solution that will cause irreperable damage over the long term. This uniquely qualifies you for various appointee positions high up in the US government. Don't waste your tallents on eve when you can screw over an entire country instead. Your overdeveloped senses of self importance and Self-righteousness will serve you well in big government.... Go get them laddybuck!!
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1939 - 2014-10-30 18:12:42 UTC
@Andy Landen

I am all in for delivering different point of views, fancy suggestions and so on.

But you have to make a clear difference between making a suggestion and then let it rest for people to make up their mind and reacting to being trolled and criticized for your suggestion.

You kept on reacting to critics and continued to make the same point over and over again without delivering any new argument to support your case - so the whole discussion looks like a troll-match by now for people from the outside. You didnt do your own case any favour by continuing to react the way you reacted.

If you want serious reactions to a suggestion then you also have to understand when to stop the re-bashing else you lose your own credibility - however great your idea might be.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#1940 - 2014-10-31 00:38:15 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
allot more stuff!!!


Andy, no one is saying that you don't have a few good points because you do, everyone is telling you that 3 hour travel times, dropping out of warp between systems and turning off the monitor, ect ect ect is/are/would be crap gameplay ideas.

of course, there's one aspect of your plan/proposal that would be used/exploited from day one to ensure that anyone who needed to go a long way in their cap could do so without ever putting their ship at risk again...

I mean if you're trying to ensure that no one in a cap ever gets caught traveling again?, then your proposal is a sure fire way to accomplish it.


not sure how?

set up cyno ship in position (if its a version of your proposal that needs a cyno, and if not, then ignore cyno and simply set destination) 2:45minutes before downtime, leave station and jump travel in the tunnel till DT sends your ship into oblivion.

move cyno alt 2.75 hours further along route, log in to cap pilot, set new destination or lock onto cyno and start traveling again.

lather rinse repeat as needed till you get where you want to go.

shorter travel times?, can drop out of jump at will?, no worries, either way, your cap will never get caught or killed, just adjust the strategy and you're golden...

really rough layout, but it can be done.


o/
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.