Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I've ran some number and now I believe you should reconsider the 50% covert portal bonus to something greater like 80-90%.

Due to the power projection nerfs, some deep null systems will become even safer and even less disturbed than what they are now. Covert operations could be the key to counter that, if anything, they should be buffed or left untouched.

As has already been pointed out, if you have weeks of jump fatigue you are doing something wrong. Just because you can accumulate that much (and they may end up capping it lower than that in the future anyway) doesn't mean you have to. There may be an occasional time where it's worth accumulating that much fatigue to accomplish something right now, and that's where the choice comes in, it should be an option, but not the rule.

You seem to be under the impression that capital pilots fly caps and caps only and if they have to leave the ship something has gone wrong. This is completely backwards, everything in EVE is an option, and if you only ever choose one option then CCP sees that as a problem. It may be more convenient to have a dedicated Cap pilot, but it's a choice you made, not something CCP forced you into. The same goes for cyno alts, you don't need 9x more. Sure you could get 9x more and project farther than others who don't go that route, but again, it's a choice, not the rule. The farther you try to go quickly the more fatigue you will incur. I think this is why you don't see the benefit of the changes... you are trying to figure out how to operate like you do today in a tomorrow that is trying to discourage those mechanics.



There is exactly one reason that you should be training any given skill in this game, because you need it to do something. If you trained skills under the impression that some would make you powerful and others would not then you were misguided. There is no bias for BO and JF or against caps, you're just taking this whole thing personally. Like they made this adjustment specifically to hurt you, which is silly and of course had nothing to do with it.

And let me be very clear, there is not now, nor has there ever been, a requirement that you need even one alt to fly a cap. Not for cyno's, not for scouting, not for any other reason. This isn't a solo game, even though there are options that let a single human play it without the assistance of other humans. This playstyle is a choice. Even if it's a popular one, it's not required.



So if I jump into a system I can just tell the EVE client to warp me to a deep safe spot? I don't have to actually make that safe spot myself or get a bookmark from somebody else? Do you not see the complete overpoweredness of letting caps drop out of a jump to a safe spot? I don't have a problem with a cloaked cap in a safe spot being safe, I have an issue with them dropping out of a jump and ending up in a safe spot without having to make it or acquire the bookmark from somebody.



5ly in 5 minutes isn't unreasonable but without jump range restrictions it doesn't really fix anything. You said above that CCP is making people give up their caps because they can't think of a better idea for a fix. That's not even remotely true, but neither is your perception that you've come up with a better idea. Seriously man, nobody is supporting your idea, nobody. At least CCP's idea does have player support, and from more than one player even. If you want to convince them you have a better idea (and it's way too late for that now) then come up with something at least one other player likes and work from there.

I think he's saying that you don't even make it to the system. Instead, you wind up at a point between systems, and it takes a prober with combat probes that have scan ranges measured in lightyears to find you.

No. The point of the delays not being constant is to facilitate local movement and punishing long distance movement.


If you want to fly capitals and only capitals, then you should realize that you're not supposed to be the kitchen knife, and also realize that when you'll be used, you'll be even more effective than you are today, relatively speaking.

This is discounting the archonballs. They were just broken.


And guess what? Those skills are still benefiting that character, you're still able to fly that capital; it just won't be possible to go from catch to deklein in 5 minutes anymore.


In your revised proposal I can go from curse to deklein in 57 minutes, and I don't need to interact with ANYONE else on the way since we have "hyperdrives". It'll probably take twice that to take gates with interceptors (I can't be arsed to figure out how long it'll take to take the 60 jumps), let alone taking caps via gates, and let alone there being any opposition at all along the route.

Doesn't sound much like a long distance travel nerf at all, if you ask me, and quite frankly sounds more like you want it to be buffed hard so things are even more mobile than they are now.

I think it would be useful when considering support of this jump fatigue/BO buff initiative for each player's vote to be accompanied by the number of skill points in non-logistics cap, logistics caps, BO, and subcaps, and how much they like BO or caps. I think the correlations on bias would be strong. It is easy to turn a blind eye to non-logistics caps when you have no investment in it, esp. when you have large investment in BLOPS. Subcap players easily outnumber capital ship players.

PS: There is no bias between long distance and local jumps because jumps across 20ly are just the same as multiple local jumps shuttling between a couple systems adding up to 20ly.

The problem is combat across regions, not travel across regions. So how about this proposal: Jump fatigue is turned into Combat fatigue where players are not allowed to take combat actions until the timer expires. Correlating the time to the total distance jumped in a given time period seems quite reasonable. And jump distance remain unchanged for ALL ships. Let's stay focused on the problem of mitigating the worst case scenario of who could take part in a given battle by distance for FC combat planning.

Lets say you make a 5ly jump, your delay and fatigue are set to 6. So you must wait 6 minutes to jump no matter what. After that 6 minutes is up you are at 5.4 fatigue. First off, at that point, you would not jump again unless it was an emergency. Ideally you wouldn't jump again for another 45 minutes as it would take that long to get fatigue to 0.9. Once it's below 1 you get the easy low fatigue equal to 1 + ly jumped. If fatigue is above 1 it's the current fatigue time multiplied by 1 + ly. So it's really not hard. Don't jump when your fatigue is above 1 unless you have to, always. Even if you have to make an emergency jump right after the first timer is up you are looking at a max of 32.4 fatigue for a 5ly jump. You will then have a 5.4 minute cooldown and 5.4 hours of fatigue.

The point isn't to make you do lots of math all the time, it's to get you to think about the consequences if you need to jump earlier. You're only doing lots of math if you don't respect your fatigue when you have it.



There isn't actually a problem with that, unless they expect to be able to only fly Interdictors and still be relevant in any given fight. You make the choice of what to fly and accept the benefits and limitations of doing so. Choosing to fly caps doesn't negate the need for other ships, it only limits what fights you'll be useful and/or present for. You keep presenting it as though your choice to fly caps is somehow special or should be protected from having upsides and downsides.



Yes, it IS a big nerf to cap jump movement. This is convenient since the changes were intended to be a big nerf to cap jump movement. I think that's a QED moment or something.



The game is going to change, I can't help you wrap your head around that, you have to come to terms with that yourself. But it is reality. I've been here since 2006, lots of stuff is different now. Skills have changed, ships have changed, Sov has changed, very little is sacred, but the changes were always in pursuit of improving the game.

I trained EAS to 4 or 5 right away because I loved EWAR, then the ships turned out to be mostly crap in practice. I think they've been changed since then, not sure how it balances out now. The point is that there is no guarantee things will stay the same, only a guarantee that something will change eventually, especially with these shorter dev cycles.



FC's aren't stupid, well most of them anyway, they won't jump 30 minutes or more into a fight not knowing what the state of the system will be when they get there. They will try to jump to staging systems, coordinate groups moving together to form up at a nearby point. Then they will all take the short jump together to the fight. I can't say if that reality would be more troublesome to manage than jump fatigue, but it doesn't seem any easier anyway.

Full disclosure: I have trained to within an inch of being able to fly caps, carriers anyway, dreads are a little farther off. The ISK investment for the Capital Ships and Carrier skillbooks is quite large and comparable to buying a carrier so I held off and have never made that plunge. I have flown with many cap pilots, as sub-cap support or lighting cynos. I have been titan bridged into fights and been bridged in a bomber by a BO . I cannot fly BO ships.

That doesn't invalidate any of the points I've made so far. I have no bias in this.



That is A problem, it's not the ONLY problem. Long distance travel affects markets, corp/alliance moves, staging for fights and more. It's becoming more and more obvious why your solution isn't the right solution and why you don't seem to understand that. This is about way more than just long distance hot drops, even if that's the problem we all feel pretty good about it solving. The times they are a changing, get on board or prepare to get run over.

Alright then, let's expose CCP's jump fatigue for what it really is before a potentially very big mistake in the direction of Eve is committed.

A carrier player's corp is kicked from his alliance without warning. Little Bobby leaves 0DD carrying what he can for himself and his corp mates in his carrier. He plots the fastest route to an NPC null station in Curse, UW9. Little Bobby reads 27.67 ly and 20.7k isotopes over two jumps according to dotlan and he only needs one cyno in enemy space (now that he is neutral to the coalition). But then remembers that the new system of jump fatigue changes his situation substantially. He is set on moving what he can for self and corp because remaining months to sell a 2 BILLION ISK carrier for potential 500 MILLION ISK LOSS also costs him substantial play time and his corp needs his help.

In order to move the carrier and friend's stuff, his journey requires 7 cynos (6 in hostile territory without dockable stations!), 45 minutes of waiting in space (for the jump fatigue to expire) in EACH hostile system, 30.18 ly of travel consuming 22.6k isotopes according to dotlan.

He works with his corp to fit off another corp mate's carrier for a cloak at a safe spot in the starting system, and to get 7 small pos in place in enemy territory for security during the 45 minute waits (do the math: 7*45 min). The corp struggles with time (at least 5.25 hours in fatigue wait time alone!!), buying poses and pos fuel on hostile markets (docking rights) and moving and onlining pos's in hostile territory.

They all promise each other to never go through that again and they set the maximum distance from NPC null for any future home at 5-10 ly (DR-) for a maximum of one midpoint and a large hit to jump fatigue.

THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MESSED UP! ABORT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!

Gah quotes gone, this was in response to Andy

Definitely worth considering. Don't blame the messenger, blame the coalition. You know, the one that you joined.

I wonder if non-aligned corps and alliances don't take this into a little deeper consideration before you join something bloated. On the other hand, you've probably just caused many hundreds or thousands of Goon scammers to drool with anticipation at the prospect of hapless corps getting their stuff stuck deep in goon space.

Not just like subcaps. Market for subcaps is much better. Subcaps fit packaged inside jump freighters. Subcaps have much faster align speeds. Frigates and cruisers even fit inside fast aligning deep space transports. Subcaps cost much less. So no, not at all "just like everyone else." And technically, he did not get himself in that situation. Others created the situation. Seeing the mess that others might bring by creating such situations, he realized the possibility and kept his caps close to NPC null sec so that it become uncommon to see caps out in deep null sec where caps *should* be.

Yes, no matter how you slice it, this change will hurt cap pilots that are out beyond 5-10ly from null sec. And that is the real story of this jump fatigue proposal. Think harder, else Eve may get stuck with even bigger problems: deep null sec ruled by subcaps, caps becoming less popular, and importing fees going through the roof with the loss of carriers for moving more than 5 ly every 45 min (for those few interested in playing the waiting game).

PS: Niskin, not trying to be hard on you, but you could have been even less of a douche and paid the carrier pilots by the light year. I had no issue making multiple jumps for others when they at least covered their share of the fuel costs. But if you had actually paid for both fuel and time, you would have still had your ships and not lost any ISK, you would not have felt bad at all, and you actually wouldn't have been a douche. Ah, the price of not carrying/paying your own weight. So no, you did not have to firesale at break even or deeply discounted prices if you had just been willing to carry your own weight.