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Dev blog: CSM9 Summer Summit Minutes!

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Valterra Craven
#21 - 2014-10-29 21:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
One of the things that really annoys me about reading the minutes is that it seems like you guys come up with a lot of reasons on why something won't work rather than trying to work through the complications to make a viable potential change worthwhile.

The thunder dome is a prime example of this. You guys are worried about griefing with it.

Step 1. Make it deployable only on moons, stars, or planets where there are not already missions etc that go there (thinking about some of the static cosmos stuff in this regard)
Step 2. Make it have a graphic sphere like warp bubbles.
Step 3. Require the bubble to have a password to be setup (much like a pos sphere) before it onlines.
Step 4. Require any ship entering the bubble require the password to be entered or you bounce off it (to prevent people from bumping you in. When you enter the password put in big bold red letters than anyone inside the bubble can shoot you at will without concord intervention.
Step 5. Profit.

It irritates the mess out of me when I go to my boss and I say "I have this problem" and then he corrects me and says "you mean you have this opportunity to succeed", but really I think you guys could use a healthy dose of that mentality.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#22 - 2014-10-29 21:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Viko VIkolander
10/10 - Good recipes, will make Steve's sauce.

Then something about the art team and hats...does this mean that Mad Ani will finally have a fedora in game?

My general perception of the current CSM is that Sugar Kyle is an MVP and needs to be a permanent fixture. Her feedback seems to be extensive and really helpful. A good amount of mynnna's predictions about the power projection changes seemed to already have turned out false.

Tags for standings - DO IT NOW

FW Missions more open to interference - Also do this asap

A light gang-boosting destroyer - Do it but fix OGB before 2020 ok?

Also: I fully support separating jump clones for travel and jump clones for swapping implants. Allow swapping clones located in one system? Almost every week my gameplay is limited based on what clone I am in versus what activities I want to do in that area (e.g., I want to go on a null roam but am in a slave clone etc).

My favorite line of the minutes:

CCP Greyscale: "We do not want to make anything ever again that cannot be blown up." LolLolLol
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#23 - 2014-10-29 21:06:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Is "Gabe" CCP Nullarbor?

"Guilhem" and "Orvar" also appear in the Industry Recap, and Gabe gets called Gabriel once.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-10-29 21:06:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dalilus
Things to do at the CSM summit...

Buff nullbear space, check
Buff lowsec, check
Buff carebear space, still looking into it Roll

Favorite line:
CCP Fozzie - To clarify: When we talk about content internally we are often talking about missions and
that type of thing.
Ugh If only we could believe you........past experience says we can't.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#25 - 2014-10-29 21:39:18 UTC
From the minutes:
Sion Kumitomo - The point is that people do not generally choose to live in nullsec for economic reasons they do it for aspiration reasons.

Wow, really, do the numbers bear that out? As if renters didn't exist? As if afk-tars / isktars didn't exist? You do realize that you can go look at NPC kill statistics on archives like dotlan, and it turns out that close to the same number of NPCs are killed in null as are killed in HS?
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#26 - 2014-10-29 21:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Krell Kroenen
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
From the minutes:
Sion Kumitomo - The point is that people do not generally choose to live in nullsec for economic reasons they do it for aspiration reasons.

Wow, really, do the numbers bear that out? As if renters didn't exist? As if afk-tars / isktars didn't exist? You do realize that you can go look at NPC kill statistics on archives like dotlan, and it turns out that close to the same number of NPCs are killed in null as are killed in HS?


It's called having your cake and eating it too. :) According to Fozzie the Nullbears are raking it in hand over fist.

From the minutes very near where you got your statement in fact
"CCP Fozzie - That being said I do still believe that is being a bit overstated. Considering so much of the
actual ISK in the game is from null sec bounties. A lot more people are making their money in null sec"
Valterra Craven
#27 - 2014-10-29 21:44:48 UTC
Also, since I'm creating posts as I read through the minutes. I'm curious about why something like the Space
Object Factory isn't adapted to other things, like Deployable objects, and clothing. It would be nice to have a base shirt type and be to chose the color of it for example, or have a POS have Quafe colors etc.
Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2014-10-29 21:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcos Vandymion
A lot of good points in there but also some good laughs -

page 24
>in regard to post tiericide Meta0
Quote:
CCP Rise - These are sometimes useful as they have way lower fitting requirements for niche fits.
---really? I have yet to find a use better than reprocessing them



page 25
> in regard to DCU tiericide
Quote:
CCP Fozzie - People will have a clearer guideline on what module they need if they need to save on CPU or Grid etc.
---to my experience meta DCUs are only chosen if there's nothing else left to gimp that isn't a GUN



page 25
Quote:
Mike Azariah - Defender missiles?
CCP Fozzie - We'll probably find a different use for these, or just remove them from the game at some point. However, we may still say that ten years from now.
---Def-whatnow? *looks left, looks right* Never heard of such things...



page 26
> T2 Crystals
---Scorch
But yeah - T1 Mining crystalls aren't really worth it. Training for T2 crystals takes barely longer and the difference between T1 strip and T2 strip w T1 crystals is the same as T2+T1 to T2+T2. Combined with the fact that we are talking about something like a few cubic metres a second maximum difference here (Hulk with maximum MLU IIs and skills, Max skilled mindlinked Orca with T2 links) you either forego crystals completely and mine everything equally well or go T2 crystals and only mine what you have the crystalls for.



page 26
---Faction CoProcs? Again - what for? 5link T3 OGBs? These are abominations anyway and should be put down



page 27
---Effectively Scorch OP vs PvE and Tach and Heavy Beam INMF OP vs PvP? Sounds balanced enough. Until you consider that people use a lot of Beams with MF in PvE too which makes me wonder why people say Scorch is OP ...



Have to agree with Valterra Craven - get that modular design stuff going ASAP. More content in less time. You can basically apply it to everything. Ships, stations, cloths, modules (aka turrets and launchers - still waiting for the remaining highslot 3d models), drones and so on and forth.



EDIT:
page 8
> Modular NPCs with stats and modules to fit to?
Like player ships? Glorious Joy.
I now feel like the messiah; or Nostradamus.... depends on whether it spells salvation from boredom or doom to ratting.
Do PLEASE make NPCs more powerful. Maybe not Burner level full re***ded overpowered but you know more powerful. Nearly facetanking half a dozen NPC Battleships with a four-slot omnitanked Domi in an L4 is a bit unreal and boring.



page 12
> CONCORD Agents
---Pretty please, some Jovian Agents would be fancy as well.



page 13
> "competing in PvE"
---Is what keeps me from even trying Incursions. The high and mighty that Incursion channels seem to me is pissing me of just thinking about it (look at these fits on out website - you need to be this blingy to go on this ride). I haven't even had the patience to stay long enough and be disproven.



EDIT 2:
>veteran player retention, new content
We are capsuleers - capitalistic bastard demigods of the far future. We are the Rogue Traders of a Universe that incidentially is not Warhammer 40K. We command power that the average human can't even fathom (425mm Rail slugs would leave really huge craters on a planet) - if we want to hop into a spacecraft the size of our bathroom (aka Fighters) let US DO SO. If we want to jump down from high above and impact on earth like Prometheus cast down and Lucifer exiled to take a sawed off shotgun and blow some other random-dude-that-just-happened-to-be-there's-head-off - LET US DO IT.
What I actually wanna say - it would be cool if we couldd keep the immersion of being near omnipotent by allowing us to use our name and portraits or whatever you can apply from EVE in Dust/Legion and/or Valkyrie. It's OK if I have to fire up a different game. But I wanna play my superrich by most standarts guy - because as such I have an ego like a starsystem. Why not - after all I can easily step from one end of such to the other.
Noone come me with "but you have so many skillpoints it'd be unfair". No it wouldn't. Large Beam Laser spec only helps if you have large beam lasers - a Beamrifle would be at most a XS Beam Laser spec.



EDIT 4:
Made it more readable. It was late yesterday.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#29 - 2014-10-29 22:01:41 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Lady Zarrina wrote:
Scanned through most of this and looks like Eve is heading towards some interesting (good) times. I am not a big Null guy, but the possible changes outlined for sov should make for some real interesting forum reading at the very least :)

And it was good to read you are ready to move on from Incarna. That was a horrid horrid mistake. For me, the biggest was ignoring the base game in favor allowing you to walk around in a closet. Most MMO's design continents and some even worlds, Eve has a whole universe. But then you stopped everything to to make a closet. And.... you wanted a slap on the back and attaboy to boot. Don't get me wrong, it looked great, so great my GPU melted. I'm sure my house would have burned to the ground if I walked around a populated station, I can only imagine a nuclear explosion if I undocked in Jita. Okay okay, got that outta my system.

So you did the 180, got back to the base and stepped up your game. And Eve need it, and it needs more of it, and from reading the minutes, you guys know where it is needed. But thank you flying spaghetti monster for getting brave again. It is time. Just do it wisely.



maybe you should stop playing eve on a broke as pc. im just saying, there needs to be immersion in stations, we need to be able to walk around and even chat with everyone that's in dock with us.. I have no sympathy and gives no fawks for someone whinning their pc couldn't handle walking around in a station.. sorry that's your broke as pc not mine.. I hope they add more into this walking in station add a lounge.. unlock the door or something cause its stupid not being able to.. its even more stupid not being able to yet seems ok to ccp make money from us by selling a $5 e-shirt, boot, pants for our avatars.. they need to fix this incomplete mess.


My PC was fine :) It was blazing hot, but fine. And almost everyone else who had a decent PC at release was saying the same thing. But I get it, you like walking around in stations.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#30 - 2014-10-29 22:08:24 UTC
Nice read and good job of even getting it out early.

But is Ytterbium scared of creating skynet or why doesn´t he want the NPCs to behave like players?

Quote:
We don't want to end up with NPCs ganking you and talking smack about your mother in local
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-10-29 22:23:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
CCP Fozzie/Greyscale- A few notes that I hope you'll see and read. Note, only the first quote is about ore anomalies Lol

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Null sec mining is higher than its ever been

I hope that you realize the source of this change. From my perspective, this is not due to a change in industry but due to high sec miners getting access to null sec ore anomalies via renting. Mining volume and minerals to market will change with Phoebe and the tightening up of many rental programs.

In order to change the increased mining from [more pve miners from high sec] to [more null sec residents mining because they need the local minerals], you really need to look at revisiting nullsec ore anomalies. I know Greyscale mentioned that it's been a while since he's looked at it. There needs to be fewer high end ores and more kernite or other mexallon heavy ores in the anomalies.

The mineral market is abysmal right now because of the huge surplus of high ends relative to the supply of low/mid ends. This supply imbalance is reflected in the price of the minerals- specifically Arkonor, which is the 3rd worst isk/hour ore as of writing this post. Fozzie- be sure that report you are looking at considers mining rate of the ore, not just the value of the minerals per unit or even one m3 of ore. (Mercoxit looks great on paper until you realize the subpar miners reduce the isk/hour to one of the worst ores).

CCP Fozzie wrote:
That being said I do still believe that is being a bit overstated. Considering so much of the actual ISK in the game is from null sec bounties.


This mentality is extremely flawed. Actual isk entry into the game does not properly reflect wealth generation. So much of the ISK coming from null bounties is because there are few places where ISK actually enters the game. ISK is just a currency, it provides no value other than to barter for goods and services. Just because the currency is literally appearing in Nullsec, it doesn't mean that Nullsec is making more wealth or accumulating more goods and services because of it. As shown by many others and as mentioned to you at the CSM summit, the vast majority of nullsec income is not good at an individual level. "Good" income only comes from high end sites, which can only support a handful of players in any given system. The vast majority of all combat sites in null give worse ISK/hr than doing missions or most other activities in the game.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
A lot more people are making their money in null sec


This is again largely due to renting. It's not like a gigantic group of players just permanently left high sec and joined nullsec coalitions. Players that were interested in PVE moved from High Sec or Low Sec into Null via rental programs. It is important that you understand the reasons for why there are more people making money and mining in null- it's because the large coalitions gave them a space to engage in PVE without worrying about having their sov evicted.


The changes that you are making are multi-tiered and seem overly beneficial to the game. We're having to make changes and adapt, which is a good thing. I just hope that as you continue to make changes, you take a real hard look at why things are the way they are, rather than just looking at the end result. Because of the limited information available to us, and going off of the CSM minutes, it does not look like there is a full grasp on impactful changes that are apparent to some of us in the analytic community.

Edit: typos/easier to read
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#32 - 2014-10-29 22:30:40 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Is "Gabe" CCP Nullarbor?

"Guilhem" and "Orvar" also appear in the Industry Recap, and Gabe gets called Gabriel once.


"Gabe/Gabriel" is CCP RubberBAND, "Guilhem" is CCP Ytterbium, and "Örvar" is CCP Arrow, for those keeping track of the attendee lists.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#33 - 2014-10-29 22:45:14 UTC
@CCP Leeloo Just on a sidenote - your signature link on the dev blog itself is leading nowhere ;)

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#34 - 2014-10-29 23:04:04 UTC
I just skipped to the logo discussion before going back to bed, good idea here, I hope you implement the whole watermark thing soon. Big smile

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-10-29 23:12:39 UTC
CSM 9 minutes wrote:
progodlegend - Is there any plan to introduce BPOs for these named items?

CCP Fozzie - We'd love to eventually but not right now. It is a dream thing. It fits into our general game
design and our policy in Eve that if we can let players build it we should let them build it. There are
various plans that people have looked at, but we're running a pass over the modules first. After that, we
can look at it. It may come in a type where there is an item dropped by NPCs and you combine that with
the T1 item to get the named item. It would also stimulate T1 industry.


OH GOD YES MAKE THIS HAPPEN

Quote:
We have very high level ideas but it is not on the short term plan.

Steve Ronuken - Could you potentially introduce these as a "fail" for T2 invention.

CCP Fozzie - This is possible so long as we didn't devalue the the loot drops for people. This is far into the
possible future

BOOOOOOOO.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#36 - 2014-10-29 23:28:37 UTC
About the awoxing stuff:

Make it a toggle: "This corporation allows its members to freely shoot at eachothers" or This corporation does not allows its members to freely shoot at eachothers" clearly visible in the show info.

In the second case, the corp CEO can set an X timer value to turn off the toggle:
"WARNING: This corporation CEO can allow members to shoot at eachothers at any moment."
"This corporation CEO can allow members to shoot at eachothers after X hours notice."

Problem solved. You have corps with corp pvp enabled at all times. You have corps with corp pvp disabled, but able to turn it on at any moment, and the system informs new players about this eventuality. And at the other extreme you have super-safe corps that have pvp disabled and a 24h notice.

Obviously if the CEO adjusts the notice time, the CEO cannot then immediately turn on the pvp flag.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#37 - 2014-10-29 23:48:24 UTC
About the New player experience, and little things in general :
- We need a shortcut to open the fleet window, please.

About the New player experience and the fact that new players don't know they need to have their skillqueue running at all times, and/or that they don't even know its there :
- Make it so that when your skillqueue is empty, that the little empty skillqueue bar on the neocom, below the portrait, would turn red and slightly blinky. Of course if you are not multiple character training, and you already have another character on the account training something, the thing wouldn't turn red.


Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#38 - 2014-10-30 00:11:48 UTC
This almost made me cry a little.

Quote:
DJ FunkyBacon- Make HICs boost, then people could catch supers in lowsec and would actually fly hics there.


Now I have to fit 2 bubbles, one scripted, a cloak, a probe launcher, and a set of boosts? Along with the comedy 100,000 ehp tank...

But I get the premise of why it was even proposed.


Quote:
Sugar Kyle- We have these small groups with 1-3 people and they can’t just bring an Eos along. It is going
to affect them. We have these small groups and I feel we should have these small groups. And these
small groups are willing to fight larger groups but if the larger group has boosts and the small group
does not it really becomes a question of do they have any reason to try. It has to be looked at and
considered.


Boosts, the methods and ships that can use them, and how they actually work need to be looked at.

Yaay!!!!
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#39 - 2014-10-30 00:49:52 UTC
it would be cool if they figured out a way to meld the free form sov with the occupancy sov... kinda like they have in fw just cuss you occupy that system does not mean you own it and visa versa.
So there could be various things that could attract you to just occupy that system but not go threw and actually claim sovereignty which would have its own benefits but also detractions in the form of upgrades and such.

Also i think for capturing sov space it should be a random mix of various areas that have to be captured that eventually leads to a complex where the sov unit is actually held.

There would be various activities such as mining pve pvp hacking/scanning that would be required to either hold on to the system or take it over...

like a special mineral that cannot be transported between starsystems but has to be used to power the sov claim unit. So this would force an active player base to farm the mineral to keep the system going for peace time and threw a siege.

While a system is sieged the attacking force would do objectives that would allow them to achieve a tiered level of occupancy and once its at a final level they would then be able to start targeting and hacking and powering thier own sov systems to take over the system from the other party.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-10-30 00:53:10 UTC
A fascinating read as always Smile
I enjoy the candor of everyone present talking in real terms about where Eve is and where it needs to be.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.