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Reality check on Frigates for FW

Author
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#21 - 2014-10-27 17:15:26 UTC
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
When I said gallante are OP I meant they have better ship selection compared to competition - I'm sorry I failed to mention that. They can field incu, tristan and comet (sometimes atron but it's more of a curiosity around my parts) while the other factions cannot say that. I see some hookbills. Condors and kestrels are rare. I see some RFFs (I dare say because of the price tag) and maybe some slicers. That's all. It's mostly comets now lol.

What you wrote made me redefine what I wanted to say - combination of rails/blasters and some drones allow comet to perform extremely well, and it shows in regard to it being used often and with great success.

Sure they are fits that will kill a comet. It's hard to outdps it's blasters up close, and kill it in scram-web range when it's set up for it. This is why I think it's so popular.

Before the Comet it was Hookbills. Both rocket and missile fits. And slicer have always worked. And while the Firetail isn't the best ship, there's quite a few very nice setups to use. And it's a lot less intimidating than a Comet.

For the normal ships, these work:

Tristan - Awesome ship. Probably the strongest vanilla frig.
Atron - Derptrons are lots of fun. Railguns work really good for 1v1 stuff.
Incursus - Awesome tank, works better with railguns than with blasters.
Maulus - 4 drones, 2 guns, can put out suprising amounts of damage. Also possible as brawler and kiting fit.
Punisher - Lacks a midslot, still fun to fly. It's ok.
Tormentor - Underestimated ship. Great brawler
Slasher - A bit light on DPS but far from a bad ship.
Merlin - Always was good, always will be good. A bit slow for a brawler but it still works.
Kestrel - Great brawler, nice kiter.
Breacher - Great kiter, can fit 2 MASBs for a ridiculous tank. The armor brawler is another variant that works really well.
Rifter - Uh. Ok.

pew pew

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#22 - 2014-10-27 17:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Executioner, Condor are also pretty solid ships. If we were Amarr, all you'd hear about over the past two years would have been "Derpsecutioner!"

Heron is an under rated solo beast with 5 midslots.

Only ship I don't really see out in the field are the Rifter, and Vigil (apart from the exploration oriented Imicus, Magnate, Probe lineup)
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#23 - 2014-10-27 19:16:57 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Executioner, Condor are also pretty solid ships. If we were Amarr, all you'd hear about over the past two years would have been "Derpsecutioner!"

Heron is an under rated solo beast with 5 midslots.

Only ship I don't really see out in the field are the Rifter, and Vigil (apart from the exploration oriented Imicus, Magnate, Probe lineup)

Ah, i completely forgot the Condor. Probably because i despise it. Big smile

And yeah, the Heron is quite interesting and the Executioner is actually pretty decent aswell. So except for 2 ships, they all work. Poor Minmatar.

pew pew

Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#24 - 2014-10-27 19:40:19 UTC
Plato Forko wrote:
I feel like right now there's an unchecked proliferation of AAR use, which feeds the need for shoehorning insane levels of DPS onto frigs to stand any chance of countering the >130 DPS tank any given AAR fit is capable of.

What really needs a rebalance right now is frig cap warfare. It's in a ****-poor state as a viable option right now, which is why virtually nobody has even bothered wasting a utility high on a neut since AARs became big, and that's really a shame because cap warfare is still awesome and still incredibly popular on cruiser/BC/BS fits.

Simple explanation for why it sucks right now: 1) 9GJ/s cap blap takes ~30s to cap out an opponent, which is simply too much time in frig warfare. 2) neut range is pitiful, and to add insult to injury nos out-ranges neuts. This one aspect alone has completely killed any possibility of hulls like the Slasher or the Rifter competing on any level with hulls like the Atron, which can easily just load Null and reach with 130 DPS out to the full neut range while comfortably tanking the same amount of DPS with an AAR. And good luck to you, if you think you can somehow fit a tank to survive ~30s of that after you've shot a good amount of your PG on a neut.

So basically, there's a lack of balance here because one critical offensive option is too gimpy to use effectively in most cases.

Possible solutions:

1) Increase the range of neuts.
2) Buff PG of weaker frigs so they can actually mount somewhat of a tank in tandem with a neut
3) "Blighted"-style neut module




Wrong about the neuts. I engage in frig vs frig fights all the time and neuts are incredibly powerful against a ship with SAAR. One neut will reduce the number of cycles the opponent gets substantially, maybe down to only 3-4. Two neuts completely shuts down a frigate with active tank / weapons. Try a dual or triple neut tristan, you can kill damn near anything (including AF's) that use cap consuming weapons or an active tank. You can also escape at will.

OP: Blasters are incredibly powerful (overpowered relative to projectiles, IMO) but there are a lot of factors. You can scram kite blaster ships with barrage all day long in a Rifter or Slasher, provided you keep 5km+ between you and the target. I have killed a lot of blaster frigs with a Rifter. That said, if an Atron overheats his AB and you don't and he gets on you, you die very, very quickly. The falloff bonus makes them nasty with null as well. Merlins you just kite because they are slow as ****.

Lasers are crap, outside of scorch, which makes them excellent for scram kiting even with relatively low DPS. You can fly in such a way with overheating that keeps enemy transversal low enough to track with Multifrequency, it's just tricky. Executioner is a mediocre fast tackle ship, not good for much else aside from niche fits; Punisher is absolute crap for solo.

Breachers are incredibly tough scram kiting ships. Slashers are decent too, with a TD and their small sig + speed. Rifters project quite well with barrage.

Drones, on the other hand, are broken as ****. Tristans are king of T1 frigates. They are killable 1v1 only if your fit / situation directly counters theirs, which does happen sometimes.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#25 - 2014-10-27 19:55:40 UTC
Zen Guerrilla wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Executioner, Condor are also pretty solid ships. If we were Amarr, all you'd hear about over the past two years would have been "Derpsecutioner!"

Heron is an under rated solo beast with 5 midslots.

Only ship I don't really see out in the field are the Rifter, and Vigil (apart from the exploration oriented Imicus, Magnate, Probe lineup)

Ah, i completely forgot the Condor. Probably because i despise it. Big smile

And yeah, the Heron is quite interesting and the Executioner is actually pretty decent aswell. So except for 2 ships, they all work. Poor Minmatar.

You also forgot about crucifier. P
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#26 - 2014-10-27 20:53:31 UTC
Phaade wrote:


OP: Blasters are incredibly powerful (overpowered relative to projectiles, IMO) but there are a lot of factors. You can scram kite blaster ships with barrage all day long in a Rifter or Slasher, provided you keep 5km+ between you and the target. I have killed a lot of blaster frigs with a Rifter. That said, if an Atron overheats his AB and you don't and he gets on you, you die very, very quickly. The falloff bonus makes them nasty with null as well. Merlins you just kite because they are slow as ****.
and selectable damage type (good for going against T2 resists), immunity to nuets, long falloff on generally faster hulls.
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2014-10-27 21:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
[quote=Balshem Rozenzweig]
... unlike minnies and amarr having some pretty useless ships at the moment among them, but anyone calling them OP needs to understand their weaknesses better, and fight accordingly.

like what Knuckles? (except punisher and maybe rifter)



well, exactly the punisher and the rifter, the former becaus of two mid slots, the latter because it's not fast enough to comfortably kite some ships, while the slasher can do it much easier, plus 4 mids. It's not the rifter suck, it's that i can't see any reason strong enough to pick it over a slasher

After those, e-war can't really compare to maulus and griffin. Esecutioner also isn't bad at all but if i want an attack frig other than the atron to fight in scram range, i'd rather get a slasher with his extra mid slot and selectable damage, or even a rocket condor, which is a surprisingly good ship, while the Executioner would be my last choice, really
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-10-28 07:45:16 UTC
get neut tristan.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#29 - 2014-10-28 18:47:25 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:

... unlike minnies and amarr having some pretty useless ships at the moment among them, but anyone calling them OP needs to understand their weaknesses better, and fight accordingly.

like what Knuckles? (except punisher and maybe rifter)



well, exactly the punisher and the rifter, the former becaus of two mid slots, the latter because it's not fast enough to comfortably kite some ships, while the slasher can do it much easier, plus 4 mids. It's not the rifter suck, it's that i can't see any reason strong enough to pick it over a slasher

After those, e-war can't really compare to maulus and griffin. Esecutioner also isn't bad at all but if i want an attack frig other than the atron to fight in scram range, i'd rather get a slasher with his extra mid slot and selectable damage, or even a rocket condor, which is a surprisingly good ship, while the Executioner would be my last choice, really

Thanks for explanation Knuckles.

Actually come to think of it, it is so wierd that atrons are so rare in amarr/mini war zone.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#30 - 2014-10-29 09:40:02 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Drones, on the other hand, are broken as ****. Tristans are king of T1 frigates. They are killable 1v1 only if your fit / situation directly counters theirs, which does happen sometimes.


Tristans are damn slow, range dictation really shouldn't be an issue. Since you can pop his drones, you just got to watch out wether he's blaster/rail/neutfit and choose orbit accordingly.
From the POV of flying one (rails+aar, neuter with plate, blaster+2rep), you have a hard time killing anyone who is focusing your drones. And then you can also hard-counter a tristan with a breacher...
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#31 - 2014-10-29 18:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Drones, on the other hand, are broken as ****. Tristans are king of T1 frigates. They are killable 1v1 only if your fit / situation directly counters theirs, which does happen sometimes.


Tristans are damn slow, range dictation really shouldn't be an issue. Since you can pop his drones, you just got to watch out wether he's blaster/rail/neutfit and choose orbit accordingly.
From the POV of flying one (rails+aar, neuter with plate, blaster+2rep), you have a hard time killing anyone who is focusing your drones. And then you can also hard-counter a tristan with a breacher...


Eh I disagree somewhat. Kiting tristan drones are vulnerable. Brawling are not because drones apply full damage on webbed targets. And active tanks wont hold up under that dps long enough to kill the.tristan. you also have to web xrones to kill them, so the.tristan can break away and escape. Neut tristans dominate brawls. Blasters push dps over active tank.capabilities.

Tristan is king of t1 frigs.
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-10-29 23:59:55 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Drones, on the other hand, are broken as ****. Tristans are king of T1 frigates. They are killable 1v1 only if your fit / situation directly counters theirs, which does happen sometimes.


Tristans are damn slow, range dictation really shouldn't be an issue. Since you can pop his drones, you just got to watch out wether he's blaster/rail/neutfit and choose orbit accordingly.
From the POV of flying one (rails+aar, neuter with plate, blaster+2rep), you have a hard time killing anyone who is focusing your drones. And then you can also hard-counter a tristan with a breacher...


Eh I disagree somewhat. Kiting tristan drones are vulnerable. Brawling are not because drones apply full damage on webbed targets. And active tanks wont hold up under that dps long enough to kill the.tristan. you also have to web xrones to kill them, so the.tristan can break away and escape. Neut tristans dominate brawls. Blasters push dps over active tank.capabilities.

Tristan is king of t1 frigs.





Neut tristan damage is nothing crazy, between 100 and 120 depending on DDA or slightly more tank (most go for the latter, with less dps), and has no web. You can tank those drones no problem in any ship, believe me, but most importantly once you stay out the 6.5 Kms mark you've won the fight, just shoot the guy, he'll have less applied dps than you, and less or comparable tank, and staying out of that range is no problem at all because the tristan is one slow mofo. When you engage a tristan, basically be super wary of neut icons, if you see one pop up, overheat prop mod and keep at range 7.5 and you're golden.

"Armed" tristans (rails and blasters) are a mixed bag. They're excellent against non faction scram kiters, but they are at a disadvantage against pure brawlers, way less dps and not excellent tank. Again, range dictation applies, if you're fast enough to get on top of him fast, you win, otherwise, you lose.
Kite tristans are dangerous, but to be honest, any combat frig can tank those drones long enough to kill them off and force the tristan off field, or it will be a very close call at least


Basically, as almost every frig, they have some targets against whom they do great, some that they get smashed by, and some that it's dicey
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-10-30 01:40:48 UTC
You don't see that many (non-faction/pirate) kiting frigates any more because of the buffed frigate tanks. Killing 5 frigate NPCs with a LML Kestrel is incredibly incredibly tedious. The DPS numbers for kiting frigates are almost exactly around the DPS a NPC can tank which means you can't really plex with it, which means you have to enter a enemy plex with a kiting fit, etc.
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