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Separate the four empires with low security space.

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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1621 - 2014-10-28 09:15:25 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I have never understood why this game needed so mich "safe" space. Plenty of other games have openworld pvp starting just outside any newb zone or city

The answer is simple if you open up and think about it from a wider point of view. Other games have no reasonably safe place to play for those that are not into the kill or be killed style of game play. Or they go the other way and there is no place for those who want the kill or be killed style of game play so both types of games suffer because they only appeal to one style of game play. EVE on the other hand appeals to both style of game play and it is the combination of both that makes EVE what it is and I hope they never change that basic balance.

Most of low and nul sec are forgotten waste lands with very few if any players in them at any given moment, high sec on the other hand has very few systems that are empty, why would you want even more empty space to roam around in? If anything shrinking the size of low and nul would force the players that are there into closer contact with each other and that may increase the chance for the fights but I really doubt it.

Like it or not the area of space with the most active player base is high sec, remove that and you remove a large portion of the player that pay for game time with real cash money every month. So look at it this way, it is all the people "in all that safe space" that make it possible for CCP to offer the things you like to do. Force those players to traverse low sec space to get from place to place and you would drive large number of them out of the game, thankfully to this point in time CCP has recognized this and left things as they are with regards to how high, low and nul sec are laid out.

This was a bad idea when it was first posted, it is a bad idea now and the fact that it is 2 years old and still not implemented as the saying goes speaks volumes on how CCP views this idea.



This doesn't change the amount of safe space, it just makes a more interesting play field for those in safe space. A completely risk averse person would still have an adequately sized sandbox (hisec), but now they have multiple sandboxes to choose from. All they have to learn how to use the rope swing(lowsec) to get from one end to another.

They might fall in, they might get a scrape, but it might be fun.

Right now the rope swing doesn't take you anywhere, its just an area aside from the sandbox where some people have some fun, but think of the games you can play when the sandbox and the rope swing become part of each other?


The problem is that those in the hisec area absolutely do not want to be in the losec area. This idea would force them to use an area they would never choose to go to or stay in a now stagnating much smaller region. This idea would only benefit those already in losec. The only people it would pursuade to travel losec are those who can and will fly BR's to go across so you would never even see them anyway.

I agree that losec needs some love but I truly don't think that messing with the hisec folks play area would achieve this. it would need focussed attention on giving those % of players who are willing to go to losec a good reason to do so. This just gives them a good reason to train cloakiness which to be honest they probably already will have done to use losec anyway.
Ben Ishikela
#1622 - 2014-10-28 13:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Ishikela
i want this.

EDIT:
it has its problems. (JumpFreighters, newRegions, dangerToJita)
BUT the point of splitting empires/markets is good!

For moar YARRR!

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Anthar Thebess
#1623 - 2014-10-28 14:28:10 UTC
Support, and again Support.
This will put more life to eve.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#1624 - 2014-10-28 14:54:38 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
The problem is that those in the hisec area absolutely do not want to be in the losec area. This idea would force them to use an area they would never choose to go to or stay in a now stagnating much smaller region. This idea would only benefit those already in losec. The only people it would pursuade to travel losec are those who can and will fly BR's to go across so you would never even see them anyway.


Agree with this, you cannot force people to do what they do not want to do and this idea is no different. Those that are adventurous in spirit are already exploring low/nul. Those that are not will not be driven there by this idea, it is more likely that they will be driven out of the game. Here and in other forums we can all speculate on how many players this would drive out of the game and we can debate if that would be good or bad for the game because there is no real world dangers to our business no matter what the outcome. For CCP on the other hand there is a significant risk to their real world business even trying a change that is this radical. Guess right and you move on, guess wrong and you just may end up losing it all. Small incremental changes are more likely to happen because of this and this idea is neither small nor incremental.

Everyone talks about this idea and how it would increasing the opportunities for fights, as one who plays primarily in high sec I see it from a different point of view. There is no way that forcing the high sec players to travel through low to get where they want will increase the opportunity for fights.

Those who want to go to low for fights are already doing that so this has no affect so this idea is a fail.

Those high sec players who simply want to travel to another region are not looking for a fight and they are not likely to actively engage in a fight if it finds them so as a tool to increase fights this idea is a fail.

The only way this idea is not fail would be for the countless gate campers that will set up in these pipes/trade routes or whatever the hell you choose to call them.
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1625 - 2014-10-28 17:29:01 UTC
The Sisters of Eve epic arc would fail immediately, as that has a real noob travelling between empires. Just one more target for the game's socially inept?

This idea makes no sense lore-wise. The Matari and Gallente would have enforced high security between their empires; likewise the Amarr and Caldari.

That traders will continue to go to jita is an assumption. It's possible that the various factions' main hubs will become more active, as risk/reward sky-rockets for the trade routes to jita, causing traders to abandon it for their local and much safer main hub.

Sry if this has been already stated, but I have no intention of wading through 86+ pages of comments.

-1
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#1626 - 2014-10-28 17:33:48 UTC
It makes perfect sense lore wise given the empires power are dwindling and that of Concord too. Also it does not force anyone to leave high sec but if you want to explore other areas of space (changes like this should also come with changes to differentiate the empires) then you need to take a risk. If you don't like going through LS then use a WH to travel. It forces nothing.

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1627 - 2014-10-28 18:47:04 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
It makes perfect sense lore wise given the empires power are dwindling and that of Concord too. Also it does not force anyone to leave high sec but if you want to explore other areas of space (changes like this should also come with changes to differentiate the empires) then you need to take a risk. If you don't like going through LS then use a WH to travel. It forces nothing.

Really? I must have missed that bit about Concord dwindling, they appear to turn up still with deadly force. You're babbling, more so when you talk about leaving hisec as if it refutes what I typed when, in fact, no-one being forced out of hisec was my point. If you think this will give you more easy kills then you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

I noticed you ignored studiously the problem caused to the SoE epic arc. Care to bless us with your wisdom on that little matter?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1628 - 2014-10-28 19:41:23 UTC
Ben Ishikela wrote:
i want this.

EDIT:
it has its problems. (JumpFreighters, newRegions, dangerToJita)
BUT the point of splitting empires/markets is good!

For moar YARRR!


You should get more active in Placid before you demand more Yarrr. Sitting station spinning in Vlillirier is not creating any Yarr for you.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Gaan Cathal
Angry Mustellid
#1629 - 2014-10-28 19:48:30 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

The problem is that those in the hisec area absolutely do not want to be in the losec area. This idea would force them to use an area they would never choose to go to or stay in a now stagnating much smaller region. This idea would only benefit those already in losec. The only people it would pursuade to travel losec are those who can and will fly BR's to go across so you would never even see them anyway.


It doesn't force them to do anything of the sort. Those who are willing to cross Lowsec space between the Empires will reap the benefits of course, but there's no damage to those who remain in Highsec, merely an opportunity cost - same as whenever you don't do something and someone else does.

If you're not going to go into Lowsec, this change isn't going to make you, and it's not supposed to. It's making room in the game for those traders and industrialists who are willing to. Risk-reward balance doesn't only belong in PVP.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1630 - 2014-10-28 21:11:49 UTC
Gaan Cathal wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

The problem is that those in the hisec area absolutely do not want to be in the losec area. This idea would force them to use an area they would never choose to go to or stay in a now stagnating much smaller region. This idea would only benefit those already in losec. The only people it would pursuade to travel losec are those who can and will fly BR's to go across so you would never even see them anyway.


It doesn't force them to do anything of the sort. Those who are willing to cross Lowsec space between the Empires will reap the benefits of course, but there's no damage to those who remain in Highsec, merely an opportunity cost - same as whenever you don't do something and someone else does.

If you're not going to go into Lowsec, this change isn't going to make you, and it's not supposed to. It's making room in the game for those traders and industrialists who are willing to. Risk-reward balance doesn't only belong in PVP.



There is already room for traders willing to go to losec, they supply the trade areas there and into nullsec. However for any hisec operator to remain competitive they would be foced to cross losec to maintain their margins. They would have no option. Most mission runners would migrate to the largest hub for simplicity so jita would become more crowded, the other regions would stagnate to a degree.

This change purely favours the losec folks and benefits nobody else. It is simply to force more targets into losec and forcing people is a very bad idea. Especially since you'd be imposing such a change onto roughly 80% of the player base. People need enticing into losec not beating into there with a big stick.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1631 - 2014-10-28 22:34:49 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


The problem is that those in the hisec area absolutely do not want to be in the losec area. This idea would force them to use an area they would never choose to go to or stay in a now stagnating much smaller region. This idea would only benefit those already in losec. The only people it would pursuade to travel losec are those who can and will fly BR's to go across so you would never even see them anyway.

I agree that losec needs some love but I truly don't think that messing with the hisec folks play area would achieve this. it would need focussed attention on giving those % of players who are willing to go to losec a good reason to do so. This just gives them a good reason to train cloakiness which to be honest they probably already will have done to use losec anyway.


But in your opinion it's ok to force people to use hisec?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1632 - 2014-10-28 23:20:28 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


The problem is that those in the hisec area absolutely do not want to be in the losec area. This idea would force them to use an area they would never choose to go to or stay in a now stagnating much smaller region. This idea would only benefit those already in losec. The only people it would pursuade to travel losec are those who can and will fly BR's to go across so you would never even see them anyway.

I agree that losec needs some love but I truly don't think that messing with the hisec folks play area would achieve this. it would need focussed attention on giving those % of players who are willing to go to losec a good reason to do so. This just gives them a good reason to train cloakiness which to be honest they probably already will have done to use losec anyway.


But in your opinion it's ok to force people to use hisec?



The point being that anyone from lo or null should have nothiing to fear in hisec since they are used to operating in much more dangerous areas. You are in no aditional danger to go about your business unless you have gone pirate and are -5 or less in sec rating. In that case you made your choice to exclude yourself from hisec and therefore live with your choices.

forcing those in hisec to traverse lower sec areas is forcing them to expose themself to more danger than they choose to. Forcing the majority of players into something would be counter productive in the extreme.
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
#1633 - 2014-10-29 10:28:39 UTC
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:

That traders will continue to go to jita is an assumption. It's possible that the various factions' main hubs will become more active, as risk/reward sky-rockets for the trade routes to jita, causing traders to abandon it for their local and much safer main hub.


And why is it a problem to reduce Jita a bit? Prices will change as it won't be that easy again to move high volumes of inventory across the four empires (coming from loot of the mission runners), but I would appreciate these effects.

And if Mission runners would focus more on their area - who cares. They will stay in high sec.

The only problem I see at the moment are the required changes. Either the security status of systems near the borders must be changed which will lead to tears of the ones in the affected zones or the four empires must undergo a "continental drift" leading to new systems appearing in the middle between the empires.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1634 - 2014-10-29 10:51:15 UTC
Dustpuppy wrote:
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:

That traders will continue to go to jita is an assumption. It's possible that the various factions' main hubs will become more active, as risk/reward sky-rockets for the trade routes to jita, causing traders to abandon it for their local and much safer main hub.


And why is it a problem to reduce Jita a bit? Prices will change as it won't be that easy again to move high volumes of inventory across the four empires (coming from loot of the mission runners), but I would appreciate these effects.

And if Mission runners would focus more on their area - who cares. They will stay in high sec.

The only problem I see at the moment are the required changes. Either the security status of systems near the borders must be changed which will lead to tears of the ones in the affected zones or the four empires must undergo a "continental drift" leading to new systems appearing in the middle between the empires.




This wouldn't just affect mission runners, it would affect traders (pretty much killing their playstyle), manufacturers who need masses of materials or to ship finished products to the hubs (they simply wouldn't risk losec as to them it's not worth it), the mission arcs would be up the spout especially the SoE arc that's specifically designed to travel newer players around the different hisec regions and no doubt many other professions would be hit too.

It also would not make sense for the Empires to allow this to happen. Whilst nominally at war with one another they always need to trade with each other. The FW is more a case of contested space than all out war as no single Empire could afford such a thing and the Corps that really run the Empires certainly wouldn't allow it.

Read back through the previous replies and you'll see that the losec/null people think this would be great and the hisec folks hate the idea. The losec people seem to want this change to provide them with more easy targets. I would rather there be better incentives for players to travel losec and in turn provide those there with hard targets, something that will require real effort and team work to catch and kill.

Other losec/null players think this would bring life back to losec, but I think not. Those in hisec opposed to this would never go to losec in any circumstances. The few % happy to do so already will be doing so. If there was any increase in pilots flying through losec it would be in BR's so you'd never even see them or in multi-stabbed haulers leading to more boo-hoo-I-can't-catch-them-nerf-WCS posts than we already get. It would be a pointless change with potentially seriously damaging effects on a large portion of the player base.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1635 - 2014-10-29 10:59:49 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
But in your opinion it's ok to force people to use hisec?


Who is forcing you?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Stellar Tycoon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1636 - 2014-10-29 13:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Stellar Tycoon
Here's my input.

Have the 4 empires segregated by low sec. But, have all 4 empires connected through a central high sec region/contesllation owned by Concord.

The idea is to create these border regions between empires 'No man's land' or what ever it needs to be to justify its existence.

The reasoning would be to break up the pathing between the main market hubs and create a choice for traders. Go though Concord space and spend X amount of extra time. Or risk going through low sec for a much shorter journey.

This would still provide a safety for all the high sec players, but will force a decision on them, risk vs time.

Check out this image to give you an idea of what i mean. Assume low sec surrounds all the empires, except the concord controlled zone. The lines are travel routes.

This may even create a drive for a new trade hub in the Concord controlled area.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1637 - 2014-10-29 13:05:25 UTC
Stellar Tycoon wrote:
Here's my input.
Have the 4 empires segregated by low sec. But, have all 4 empires connected through a central high sec owned by Concord.


Stationless?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Stellar Tycoon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1638 - 2014-10-29 13:07:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Stellar Tycoon
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Stellar Tycoon wrote:
Here's my input.
Have the 4 empires segregated by low sec. But, have all 4 empires connected through a central high sec owned by Concord.


Stationless?


I edited the original text.

It'll have stations, just like all of regular low sec/high sec.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1639 - 2014-10-29 13:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Stellar Tycoon wrote:
Here's my input.

Have the 4 empires segregated by low sec. But, have all 4 empires connected through a central high sec region/contesllation owned by Concord.

The idea is to create these border regions between empires 'No man's land' or what ever it needs to be to justify its existence.

The reasoning would be to break up the pathing between the main market hubs and create a choice for traders. Go though Concord space and spend X amount of extra time. Or risk going through low sec for a much shorter journey.

This would still provide a safety for all the high sec players, but will force a decision on them, risk vs time.

Check out this image to give you an idea of what i mean. Assume low sec surrounds all the empires, except the concord controlled zone. The lines are travel routes.

This may even create a drive for a new trade hub in the Concord controlled area.


This would mean every hauler travelling through the new concord space giving gankers a much easier predictable group of choke points and again there is no reason the Empires would allow this to happen as it would stifle the trade they need to exist. I would rathe time be spent on improving the reasons to go to losec/null rather than mess with the hisec systems which work fine as they are.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1640 - 2014-10-29 13:15:07 UTC
Stellar Tycoon wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Stellar Tycoon wrote:
Here's my input.
Have the 4 empires segregated by low sec. But, have all 4 empires connected through a central high sec owned by Concord.


Stationless?


I edited the original text.

It'll have stations, just like all of regular low sec/high sec.


Then you have your new super trade hub and nothing changes. Except for that trading has become easier and faster. I could like that idea. Twisted

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.