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Add ice belts to w-space

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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-10-28 22:29:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As some people have already mentioned in this thread, we do intentionally set up resources to encourage trade and movement, leaving surpluses and deficits of certain things in different areas of space.

That being said, I think we may be able to make some changes in this particular area in the near future. It probably won't be in the way you expect though. Blink

*fangirls*
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#22 - 2014-10-28 22:31:16 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
So, comet mining or solar harvesting?

I could definitely get behind comet mining. There was a thread somewhere about comets...
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-10-28 22:39:33 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient?

Simple; to force conflict.

Plus, no part of EVE is entirely self sufficient.

- high-sec requires high-end minerals/ice and moon materials from null-sec to perform anything other than Tech 1 industry... in addition to a supply of Pirate Faction, Officer, and other very high-end stuff.
- null-sec requires the vast, cheap workforce of high-sec to procure large amounts of low-end minerals as well as NPCs for skill books, faction mods, and "safe industry."
- low-sec relies on both high-sec and null-sec for... well... just about everything except security status.

Wormholes already allow people to mostly be self-sufficient in all but one major way; ice products for POS towers. In fact... wormholes allow you to be more self-sufficient than almost any other type of system out there.

Catherine Laartii wrote:
Wormholes aren't sealed from the rest of the game since any hermit with a decent-sized pocket book and an alt can already live in w-space as they are, but have to defend themselves from interlopers.

When I say "sealed off" I am saying that you do not have to deal with people outside of your own turf.

Catherine Laartii wrote:
They just have to pay a little more for shipping blocks in from outside and keep an alt on backup in case they lose their pod and have to find a new way back if the hole closes.

See! Conflict! Working as intended!

Catherine Laartii wrote:
I find the notion that wormholes are somehow supposed to be places to take daytrips to be disingenuous. They were introduced as no-strings attatched content back in apocrypha for player to do with without any instruction or real stated guidelines. If people want to live in them permanently (as many already do), then they should have the tools to make that a little more viable.

The DEVs were orginally going to disable POSs from being anchored in WHs... but they figured that no one would do such a thing (due to the amount of effort involved in maintaining it) and let it be.
People then starting living in WHs and the DEVs were pleasantly surprised.

But the point still stands; if you have all the materials you need to be entirely self sufficient for what reason would you leave your system at all? How would you or other players be forced to interact with each other?


For the last question: A quiet c1 or c2 with a null static is a great place to retire in or take an extended vacation to. if someone can build their fuel locally then not only is the person who shacks up in a small hole able to maintain it easily enough, the big w-space alliances have some more weight off their backs for maintaining themselves. Short of banning starbases in w-space there's isn't a damn thing that the devs can do to keep people from trying to live in w-space.

So in regards to the question, "If you have all the materials you need to be entirely self suffiient what reason would you leave your system at all?" well, to sell things for one. And in regards to being forced to interact with each other that's pretty easy; you can't lock your door in w-space even if you can close it. People will wander in no matter what class wh you're in, and it's still a pretty high probability that you'll run into people to fight.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#24 - 2014-10-28 22:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.


Null sec does not depend on High sec. At all. All the low end minerals are available in the regular belts. They just need to be mined. Null sec has all the Moon minerals necessary for any production. Null sec has the money generating capabilities as well. What's missing? Well, the change in attitude and perspective towards the game in the player base. That's all.

In my opinion, EVE should not be 1 community; it should be many. None needs to interact with the other. They can be parallel societies if you will, who then have real reasons to clash and fight proper wars, not the rubbish currently (the last 4 years or so) taking place in EVE. Basically, in Null sec there should be societies living all sec levels (High/Low/Null) of EVE on their own. This would mean that the players don't have a choice about what they do if they are part of one society, they would just have to help their society struggle and hurdle forward. In the end, it would also mean that the societies have to use all their resources, which means they have to mine everything they can get their hands on in their realm, not just cherry picked anoms. And if their minerals deplete, they have to fight over new mineral grounds, new moons, now ice fields.

Quotes fixed.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-10-28 23:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Null sec does not depend on High sec. At all. All the low end minerals are available in the regular belts. They just need to be mined. Null sec has all the Moon minerals necessary for any production. Null sec has the money generating capabilities as well. What's missing? Well, the change in attitude and perspective towards the game in the player base. That's all.

Unfortunately, infrastructure hub upgrades, outposts, outpost upgrades, new blueprints, and skillbooks all have to come from Empire. Many of these must be moved via freighter. So, no, nullsec is, in fact, still dependent on empire, even while implicitly accepting your facile argument as truth.

This doesn't even get into the nightmare of trying to trade moon minerals – a very regional material – without a neutral trading ground, such as empire.

e: fixing quote

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Leonard Nimoy II
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-10-28 23:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Leonard Nimoy II
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.


THIS. ^^

I actually think it would a much more interesting dynamic if w-space corps could cut themselves off from k-space. Make w-space mysterious once more.
Tonai Kion
Physics Says No
Brotherhood of Spacers
#27 - 2014-10-29 00:27:31 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.




Oh cool, I guess null sec and high sec shouldn't be dependent on Wormholes for Tech 3 supplies then. Glad to see you support the inclusion of sleeper spawns in Null sec. :)
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#28 - 2014-10-29 00:37:03 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient?

Simple; to force conflict.

Plus, no part of EVE is entirely self sufficient.

- high-sec requires high-end minerals/ice and moon materials from null-sec to perform anything other than Tech 1 industry... in addition to a supply of Pirate Faction, Officer, and other very high-end stuff.
- null-sec requires the vast, cheap workforce of high-sec to procure large amounts of low-end minerals as well as NPCs for skill books, faction mods, and "safe industry."
- low-sec relies on both high-sec and null-sec for... well... just about everything except security status.

Wormholes already allow people to mostly be self-sufficient in all but one major way; ice products for POS towers. In fact... wormholes allow you to be more self-sufficient than almost any other type of system out there.

Catherine Laartii wrote:
Wormholes aren't sealed from the rest of the game since any hermit with a decent-sized pocket book and an alt can already live in w-space as they are, but have to defend themselves from interlopers.

When I say "sealed off" I am saying that you do not have to deal with people outside of your own turf.

Catherine Laartii wrote:
They just have to pay a little more for shipping blocks in from outside and keep an alt on backup in case they lose their pod and have to find a new way back if the hole closes.

See! Conflict! Working as intended!

Catherine Laartii wrote:
I find the notion that wormholes are somehow supposed to be places to take daytrips to be disingenuous. They were introduced as no-strings attatched content back in apocrypha for player to do with without any instruction or real stated guidelines. If people want to live in them permanently (as many already do), then they should have the tools to make that a little more viable.

The DEVs were orginally going to disable POSs from being anchored in WHs... but they figured that no one would do such a thing (due to the amount of effort involved in maintaining it) and let it be.
People then starting living in WHs and the DEVs were pleasantly surprised.

But the point still stands; if you have all the materials you need to be entirely self sufficient for what reason would you leave your system at all? How would you or other players be forced to interact with each other?

This

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-10-29 00:38:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As some people have already mentioned in this thread, we do intentionally set up resources to encourage trade and movement, leaving surpluses and deficits of certain things in different areas of space.

That being said, I think we may be able to make some changes in this particular area in the near future. It probably won't be in the way you expect though. Blink


Has there been any worthwhile consideration into making different regions of nullsec deficient in different minerals to encourage inter-regional trade instead of the entire stale status quo for all of nullsec: Import 2/3 of the mexallon you need, Export most of your zydrine, megacyte, morphite, and some of nocxium ?
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#30 - 2014-10-29 01:56:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Null sec depends on cheap goods from high sec and npc seeded items from there to function, to say nothing of the fact that Null needs the low end minerals from high sec to do any useful manufacturing. Why should Wormholes be any different in needing another area of space to function?

Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.



Null sec does not depend on High sec. At all. All the low end minerals are available in the regular belts. They just need to be mined. Null sec has all the Moon minerals necessary for any production. Null sec has the money generating capabilities as well. What's missing? Well, the change in attitude and perspective towards the game in the player base. That's all.

In my opinion, EVE should not be 1 community; it should be many. None needs to interact with the other. They can be parallel societies if you will, who then have real reasons to clash and fight proper wars, not the rubbish currently (the last 4 years or so) taking place in EVE. Basically, in Null sec there should be societies living all sec levels (High/Low/Null) of EVE on their own. This would mean that the players don't have a choice about what they do if they are part of one society, they would just have to help their society struggle and hurdle forward. In the end, it would also mean that the societies have to use all their resources, which means they have to mine everything they can get their hands on in their realm, not just cherry picked anoms. And if their minerals deplete, they have to fight over new mineral grounds, new moons, now ice fields.


Please fix your quotes as I did not say that first part. Thank you.
edit: fixed quotes. sorry rivr; forums are a b*tch sometimes to format. :/
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-10-29 02:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Tonai Kion wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.




Oh cool, I guess null sec and high sec shouldn't be dependent on Wormholes for Tech 3 supplies then. Glad to see you support the inclusion of sleeper spawns in Null sec. :)

W-space is a completely different area apart from the main map, as I'm sure you're aware. The only thing material-wise that's missing from null are blueprints, empire faction items and...skillbooks. Please refrain from introducing twisted troll-logic into this as it derails the conversation.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#32 - 2014-10-29 06:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Querns wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Null sec does not depend on High sec. At all. All the low end minerals are available in the regular belts. They just need to be mined. Null sec has all the Moon minerals necessary for any production. Null sec has the money generating capabilities as well. What's missing? Well, the change in attitude and perspective towards the game in the player base. That's all.

Unfortunately, infrastructure hub upgrades, outposts, outpost upgrades, new blueprints, and skillbooks all have to come from Empire. Many of these must be moved via freighter. So, no, nullsec is, in fact, still dependent on empire, even while implicitly accepting your facile argument as truth.

This doesn't even get into the nightmare of trying to trade moon minerals – a very regional material – without a neutral trading ground, such as empire.

e: fixing quote


Fair enough, you have to get the upgrades form Concord. Which have stations all over EVE in Low sec. Which means you still do not depend on High sec. Jita is a player created hub, do the same in Null sec for your stuff. Blink Obviously, players need to step away from their self-centric, egoistical gameplay to allow that to happen (Providence, anyone?). And you need to start trading between the Null sec regions and not just want to have it convenient and easy by going to Jita. Effort? Oh my. Roll

@Catherine Laartii

Fixed. Can you fix your quoting as well? Lol

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Major Issue
Standard Fuel Company
#33 - 2014-10-29 08:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Issue
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Null sec depends on cheap goods from high sec and npc seeded items from there to function, to say nothing of the fact that Null needs the low end minerals from high sec to do any useful manufacturing. Why should Wormholes be any different in needing another area of space to function?

Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.



Null sec does not depend on High sec. At all. All the low end minerals are available in the regular belts. They just need to be mined. Null sec has all the Moon minerals necessary for any production. Null sec has the money generating capabilities as well. What's missing? Well, the change in attitude and perspective towards the game in the player base. That's all.


Nullsec should be self sufficient if one takes the challenge. Not every region needs to have everything in the same abundance though to set incentives for trade.

However, while this in theory holds true even now, Ice TYPES are a major showstopper now. In some regions (*cough* Amarr Space *cough*) you cannot set up proper industry, because you either have to import the right isotopes or you spend twice as many fuel blocks because your towers don't have enough CPU.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2014-10-29 09:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Major Issue wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.


Null sec does not depend on High sec. At all. All the low end minerals are available in the regular belts. They just need to be mined. Null sec has all the Moon minerals necessary for any production. Null sec has the money generating capabilities as well. What's missing? Well, the change in attitude and perspective towards the game in the player base. That's all.


Nullsec SHOULD be self sufficient if one takes the challenge. Not every region should have everything in the same abundance to set incentives for trade.

However, while this in theory holds true even now, Ice TYPES are a major showstopper now. In some regions (*cough* Amarr Space *cough*) you cannot set up proper industry, because you either have to import the right isotopes or you spend twice as much fuel blocks because your towers don't have enough CPU.


You can use Minmatar Towers or Gallente towers, both Null sec space areas border on Amarr Null sec. If you really really must use Caldari towers, then you have to import the ice from someone, who lives in Caldari space. Trade between regions and so on; some of the border systems between Delve and Fountain and Sansha space and Minmatar space could very well turn into interesting and active trade hubs. Who does not do it? Players. Roll

How towers are important for industry, however, eludes me. There's more than enough station systems in Null sec.

I also fixed your quoting.Blink

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-10-29 10:06:11 UTC
WH not intended to be home, therefore it doesn't make it easy to live in one. This is - yet another! - attempt by WH-dwellers to take a firmer grip on the WH "they own", by reducing their exposure to hostile elements.

-1
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#36 - 2014-10-29 10:23:19 UTC
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
WH not intended to be home, therefore it doesn't make it easy to live in one. This is - yet another! - attempt by WH-dwellers to take a firmer grip on the WH "they own", by reducing their exposure to hostile elements.

-1


Since you don't seem to have a clue, start by reading this devblog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/into-the-known-unknowns/?_ga=1.52873704.1308779678.1413270597

Don't be so jelly, kid :)
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#37 - 2014-10-29 14:48:51 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Major Issue wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.


Null sec does not depend on High sec. At all. All the low end minerals are available in the regular belts. They just need to be mined. Null sec has all the Moon minerals necessary for any production. Null sec has the money generating capabilities as well. What's missing? Well, the change in attitude and perspective towards the game in the player base. That's all.


Nullsec SHOULD be self sufficient if one takes the challenge. Not every region should have everything in the same abundance to set incentives for trade.

However, while this in theory holds true even now, Ice TYPES are a major showstopper now. In some regions (*cough* Amarr Space *cough*) you cannot set up proper industry, because you either have to import the right isotopes or you spend twice as much fuel blocks because your towers don't have enough CPU.


You can use Minmatar Towers or Gallente towers, both Null sec space areas border on Amarr Null sec. If you really really must use Caldari towers, then you have to import the ice from someone, who lives in Caldari space. Trade between regions and so on; some of the border systems between Delve and Fountain and Sansha space and Minmatar space could very well turn into interesting and active trade hubs. Who does not do it? Players. Roll

How towers are important for industry, however, eludes me. There's more than enough station systems in Null sec.

I also fixed your quoting.Blink

Ty and I fixed mine. Smile

I think it may have something to do with how bpos work now or gas processing but I'm not sure. There are also a number of people who do t3 S&I who don't live in wormholes, and last I checked stations that do reverse engineering are really damn hard to find, and may not be in ideal locations.

That being said, I can agree with the sentiment that fuel blocks in general are significantly more difficult to manufacture than they should be. I think reducing the PI requirements, either by a tier level and/or reducing or homogenizing the ice product requirements would go a long way towards assisting with more player independence in regards to lowering starbase upkeep costs.
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-10-29 14:53:05 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
WH not intended to be home, therefore it doesn't make it easy to live in one. This is - yet another! - attempt by WH-dwellers to take a firmer grip on the WH "they own", by reducing their exposure to hostile elements.

-1


Since you don't seem to have a clue, start by reading this devblog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/into-the-known-unknowns/?_ga=1.52873704.1308779678.1413270597

Don't be so jelly, kid :)

Since you don't seem to have anything useful to contribute, I read the devblog, hoping it may have the knowledge that appears to have eluded you. I must have missed the part where it extols the virtues of ice in WH-space, and how removing the need for the dwellers to leave their cosy little world would improve the game. Please point it out to me, kid :)
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#39 - 2014-10-29 15:00:55 UTC
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
WH not intended to be home, therefore it doesn't make it easy to live in one. This is - yet another! - attempt by WH-dwellers to take a firmer grip on the WH "they own", by reducing their exposure to hostile elements.

-1


Since you don't seem to have a clue, start by reading this devblog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/into-the-known-unknowns/?_ga=1.52873704.1308779678.1413270597

Don't be so jelly, kid :)

Since you don't seem to have anything useful to contribute, I read the devblog, hoping it may have the knowledge that appears to have eluded you. I must have missed the part where it extols the virtues of ice in WH-space, and how removing the need for the dwellers to leave their cosy little world would improve the game. Please point it out to me, kid :)

'cozy' is literally the last word I'd use for w-space...
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#40 - 2014-10-29 15:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As some people have already mentioned in this thread, we do intentionally set up resources to encourage trade and movement, leaving surpluses and deficits of certain things in different areas of space.

That being said, I think we may be able to make some changes in this particular area in the near future. It probably won't be in the way you expect though. Blink


Now I am curious...
What is coming up?
Alternative Polarized Fuel Blocks that are made of Tritanium, but set your POS shield resistances to 0%? :-D

Or how about Solar Cell Arrays that reduce POS fuel need but cost PI stuff to maintain?