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[Phoebe] Heavy Interdictors

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Lasse R Farnsworth
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#321 - 2014-10-26 15:15:17 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. I'm back from Vegas now and all caught up on the thread. Thanks for the feedback so far.

A number of the suggestions posted here (allowing hictors to prevent interceptors from warping, allowing focused points to stop all ships from jumping, allowing focused points to stop ships from docking) would unbalance the game too far towards inescapable camps. We have absolutely no intention of making any of those changes at this time.

I'm noticing a fair bit of consternation at the fact that the Devoter is getting a small dronebay but the Phobos is not. The optimal bonus on the Phobos has also been raising some eyebrows.
The key thing that these players are missing is the distinctive flavour we are working towards giving the entire Roden Shipyards line. The old design for Roden Shipyards was focused on a fairly watered down use of missiles and hybrids. This left them in an underwhelming place compared to the other two Gallente T2 corps.

In the new world order for Gallente T2 ships, each manufacturer has a clear set of strengths and a unifying theme:

Duvolle Labs ships are the perfect blasterboats, tending towards lots of damage bonuses (often both RoF and Damage on the same hull) and falloff bonuses. Duvolle ships tend to be among the faster Gallente T2 ships to help them get into range, and sport robust unbonused dronebays as a secondary weapon.

Creodron ships are specialized droneboats, as befits a line of vessels constructed by a company that makes most of its money from drones. These guys tend to have the most drone bandwidth, and the best drone bonuses.

Roden Shipyards ships can be used as effective blasterboats, but tend to lean towards railguns with big bonuses to hybrid optimal range and tracking. They are a bit slower than Duvolle ships, and have the weakest drone capability of all the Gallente ships, but they tend to have more low slots and more armor HP, as well as better sensors.


Can we get that for all Shipyards in game pls ?? This type of fluff makes the world so much more lively and it actually helps .. just give that fluff into the info of the shipyard and suddendly you have usefull fitting hints and fluff +1 +1 +1 great info actually
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#322 - 2014-10-26 22:06:36 UTC
I feel these changes are rather underwhelming and the whole stopping caps from jumping gates is a hotfix for the can of worms you opened in caps using gates.

In fairness though there is not much you can do to to hics to make them more multi role without sacrificing their main role. we will have to wait for the Bubble generator to be looked at for the big changes

The overheating bonus is also pretty crap considering its niche bonus. (if I need to overheat to bubble down then its faster to turn it off)

So Much Space
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#323 - 2014-10-27 02:20:03 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. I'm back from Vegas now and all caught up on the thread. Thanks for the feedback so far.

A number of the suggestions posted here (allowing hictors to prevent interceptors from warping, allowing focused points to stop all ships from jumping, allowing focused points to stop ships from docking) would unbalance the game too far towards inescapable camps. We have absolutely no intention of making any of those changes at this time.


So basically break the game for caps, but don't allow caps to break sub-cap PvP.

Kthnx.

Who wants my stuff?


I'm not seeing how a single infinite point keeping a single interceptor from burning back and jumping would unbalance the game into inescapable gate camps. The inty can always burn away if he likes. The inty bubble immunity was a great addition to the game. I just think a further enhancement would to put at least one counter to invinciceptor. You singled out specific caps for jump blocking, I'm just proposing that a hic focused point do the same for the inty.

The infinite point already holds an inty from warping..... doesn't it??? This is a request for a focussed point effect to also keep them from jumping back, not a bubble effect.


No, this is a bad change. You've just consigned scouts or solo players to death if you add this mechanic. If you really want to kill that interceptor, jump back through with him and catch him on the other side.


I think consigned to death is a bit heavy handed. They can always warp before the hic points them or burn away. As it stands right now - the interceptor is a no risk platform that can only be caught if is chooses to engage. Infinite point doesn't turn off their mwd, so I'm not sure that burning out of infinite point range is something I would worry about.

It's more about adding some risk to flying an inty. Fly a covert ops or bomber if you want to be able scout and burn back to the gate. Everyone is in an interceptor right now because they are so risk free. I think preventing them from jumping under the infinite point is a reasonable amount of balance.

So, no to your no. It's a good change. You just want to fly around in your inty risk free. Man up.

I'm just looking for inty to be added to the no jump list. I'd like to see JF added to the list too. I'm not sure how/why logistics gets a free pass (again), but I'm only asking for inty at this point.
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#324 - 2014-10-27 11:11:50 UTC
@Fozzie

Doing your work on the HIC did you consider allowing the HIC to recieve reps again when the bubble is up?
Currently the Hic has no real place in large engaments and are with the current changes only for lowsec and catching supers.

Also They are really in dire need of more cap since they have trouble keeping up.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#325 - 2014-10-27 11:45:48 UTC
Lurifax wrote:
@Fozzie

Doing your work on the HIC did you consider allowing the HIC to recieve reps again when the bubble is up?
Currently the Hic has no real place in large engaments and are with the current changes only for lowsec and catching supers.

Also They are really in dire need of more cap since they have trouble keeping up.



Catching supers isn't exactly a minor ability. I've always liked that they do mighty things and require support to pull it off. When you say large engagements, I would just assume you could bring enough HICs to rotate through reps/cap transfers.

Getting reps while holding a super or bubbling a fleet trying to get out seems a bit over powered to me.... especially in larger engagements where you could drop down from 200 archons to oh I don't know 180 archons and have 20 HIC pilots to ratate points/bubbles. You could get super crazy and go w/ a 150/50 archon/devoter split. The sky is the limit you could go large and bring 200 archons and 50 devoters. (feel free to sub out the archons and devoters for your blob flavor of the day).
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#326 - 2014-10-27 13:27:42 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lurifax wrote:
@Fozzie

Doing your work on the HIC did you consider allowing the HIC to recieve reps again when the bubble is up?



Catching supers isn't exactly a minor ability. I've always liked that they do mighty things and require support to pull it off. When you say large engagements, I would just assume you could bring enough HICs to rotate through reps/cap transfers.


I'd argue that there isn't really any reason to prevent HICs receiving reps while using the focused point. This is very vulnerable to effects like ECM / damps, and only tackles a single ship. The AoE bubble mode is capable of holding down many ships, and absolutely should prevent remote assistance, though.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#327 - 2014-10-27 14:53:54 UTC
Hey Fozzie, your earlier comments about the Gallente ship manufacturers would likely be unnecessary (or at least less necessary) if you folks actually updated the ship descriptions to reflect their current "flavor". ROden Shipyards ships still list a preference for missiles over drones, yet in reality they favor rails over blasters. Same goes for T1 ships like the Moros which hasn't had a "protean array of point defenses" (i.e. drones) for some time now.

Updating a text box only takes a little time and creativity, yet could eliminate a lot of consternation regarding changes like this.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#328 - 2014-10-27 16:43:01 UTC
xttz wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lurifax wrote:
@Fozzie

Doing your work on the HIC did you consider allowing the HIC to recieve reps again when the bubble is up?



Catching supers isn't exactly a minor ability. I've always liked that they do mighty things and require support to pull it off. When you say large engagements, I would just assume you could bring enough HICs to rotate through reps/cap transfers.


I'd argue that there isn't really any reason to prevent HICs receiving reps while using the focused point. This is very vulnerable to effects like ECM / damps, and only tackles a single ship. The AoE bubble mode is capable of holding down many ships, and absolutely should prevent remote assistance, though.


I don't think it should be easy to hold a super down. A hic getting reps would make it too easy. ecm and damp boats go away as quickly as you want them to in larger fights, so personally I wouldn't use ecm/damps as a reason that it's ok to get reps and infinite point at the same time. I would argue nuets before that, but then again, if you get reps you get cap transfer, so.....

Why did they take away the ability to rep in the first place?? Do the current changes to the HIC make that reason go away?
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#329 - 2014-10-27 21:43:11 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
Serendipity Lost wrote:
xttz wrote:
I'd argue that there isn't really any reason to prevent HICs receiving reps while using the focused point. This is very vulnerable to effects like ECM / damps, and only tackles a single ship. The AoE bubble mode is capable of holding down many ships, and absolutely should prevent remote assistance, though.


I don't think it should be easy to hold a super down. A hic getting reps would make it too easy. ecm and damp boats go away as quickly as you want them to in larger fights, so personally I wouldn't use ecm/damps as a reason that it's ok to get reps and infinite point at the same time. I would argue nuets before that, but then again, if you get reps you get cap transfer, so.....

Why did they take away the ability to rep in the first place?? Do the current changes to the HIC make that reason go away?


The ability to rep an active HIC was never taken away, so much as it never existed. HICs were introduced as a hard counter to Titans armed with AoE doomsdays, and as such were given a strong buffer tank without the ability to rely on remote assistance. It's also worth mentioning that this is the first real balancing pass on HICs since their introduction 7 years ago. When they were first seen there were barely 100 Titans in the entire game. Now several major alliances can fill whole fleets with them, with supercarriers and caps piled on top. These changes don't make that reason go away, it went away long ago.

I'm not sure why you think it's 'easy' for a small cruiser to hold down such forces either. Cruisers with poor sensor strength, limited cap and deliberately impaired speed. There's a good reason why HICs are rarely seen outside of low-sec, and these changes do little to address that. We're heading into an era when the game still contains hordes of supercapital ships, but with everyone slowed down there's even less threat to this monstrous fleets than before.

Fozzie is putting a fresh coat of paint on a 1970's Ford Pinto. Sure it may look shinier, but you still have to question why the hell it still exists. Heavy Dictors are dated, and need a rethink from the ground up. Since that isn't likely to happen any time soon, let's at least loosen some of the archaic 7-year-old* restrictions still hanging around their neck.

*that's 86 in EVE-years!
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#330 - 2014-10-28 07:35:40 UTC
xttz wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lurifax wrote:
@Fozzie

Doing your work on the HIC did you consider allowing the HIC to recieve reps again when the bubble is up?



Catching supers isn't exactly a minor ability. I've always liked that they do mighty things and require support to pull it off. When you say large engagements, I would just assume you could bring enough HICs to rotate through reps/cap transfers.


I'd argue that there isn't really any reason to prevent HICs receiving reps while using the focused point. This is very vulnerable to effects like ECM / damps, and only tackles a single ship. The AoE bubble mode is capable of holding down many ships, and absolutely should prevent remote assistance, though.


Actually the bubble is the time when you need the reps the most. You are completely static and a sitting duck, just praying that the hostile FC has the wrong overview loaded.

xttz makes a very valid point about the Pinto Hic.
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#331 - 2014-10-28 07:39:29 UTC
I guess that CCP is trying to "fix" the dead hic with the overheat thing. They should just adjust the bubble time in the first place.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#332 - 2014-10-28 09:05:07 UTC
xttz wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
xttz wrote:
I'd argue that there isn't really any reason to prevent HICs receiving reps while using the focused point. This is very vulnerable to effects like ECM / damps, and only tackles a single ship. The AoE bubble mode is capable of holding down many ships, and absolutely should prevent remote assistance, though.


I don't think it should be easy to hold a super down. A hic getting reps would make it too easy. ecm and damp boats go away as quickly as you want them to in larger fights, so personally I wouldn't use ecm/damps as a reason that it's ok to get reps and infinite point at the same time. I would argue nuets before that, but then again, if you get reps you get cap transfer, so.....

Why did they take away the ability to rep in the first place?? Do the current changes to the HIC make that reason go away?


The ability to rep an active HIC was never taken away, so much as it never existed. HICs were introduced as a hard counter to Titans armed with AoE doomsdays, and as such were given a strong buffer tank without the ability to rely on remote assistance. It's also worth mentioning that this is the first real balancing pass on HICs since their introduction 7 years ago. When they were first seen there were barely 100 Titans in the entire game. Now several major alliances can fill whole fleets with them, with supercarriers and caps piled on top. These changes don't make that reason go away, it went away long ago.

I'm not sure why you think it's 'easy' for a small cruiser to hold down such forces either. Cruisers with poor sensor strength, limited cap and deliberately impaired speed. There's a good reason why HICs are rarely seen outside of low-sec, and these changes do little to address that. We're heading into an era when the game still contains hordes of supercapital ships, but with everyone slowed down there's even less threat to this monstrous fleets than before.

Fozzie is putting a fresh coat of paint on a 1970's Ford Pinto. Sure it may look shinier, but you still have to question why the hell it still exists. Heavy Dictors are dated, and need a rethink from the ground up. Since that isn't likely to happen any time soon, let's at least loosen some of the archaic 7-year-old* restrictions still hanging around their neck.

*that's 86 in EVE-years!


HIC's are alive and well in W-space.

2 Hic's working together in wormholes can pin down an entire fleet. Plus the huge tank allows them to survive the bubble down for reps. (there is a reason we like super tanky T3's they are the only ships that can tank enough to receive reps)

The Meta in nullsec makes HIC's unusable not the ship itself

So Much Space
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#333 - 2014-10-28 11:12:13 UTC
@Faren Shalni

If they are not able to kill the HIC in a bubble cycle, dont you think we should call it a gang not a fleet?

I have tryed the doubble teaming in pinning down dreads with the bubble and it works fine until you get primaried.

Also you are always carrying small wapr dis bubbles since they only have a 2min onlining timer and can get repped.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#334 - 2014-10-28 11:51:37 UTC
I think it's just a tough call for larger fleets. It's a cruiser, so any time you get 100 guys shooting it.... it probably shouldn't survive. If you can rep a HIC, how many folks should it be able to tank? I guess I would be woried that 4 guardians or 3 carriers or whatever could just perma rep it and you would go from useless (based on survivability) to invincible.

I would think invincible (with reps) would be a bit overpowered. I'll just say I'm glad I only play the game and don't have to balance it. Just keep in mind this is a bistable change (yes/no for reps) it isn't a tweeking change where you improve/nerf an ability.
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#335 - 2014-10-28 14:11:36 UTC
The point is not to be able to survive 100 ppl blapping at you. In that case anything but capital tends to get alphad off the field.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#336 - 2014-10-28 16:10:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Lurifax wrote:
The point is not to be able to survive 100 ppl blapping at you. In that case anything but capital tends to get alphad off the field.




That's kind of my point. 100 folks alpha you. 10 guys have zero chance of breaking you (with remote rep support).

Where is the breakover point? Once you turn on the ability to get remote assistance you then have to set the reasonable breakover where you can get broken. Turning this on is giving you immunity to a certain size gang.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#337 - 2014-10-28 17:58:39 UTC
Whatever happened to "T2 ships are more specialised"? The main issue with Hictors currently is that they're not all that effective in their primary combat role of pinning down hostiles, but instead these changes seem focused on turning them into pseudo-HACs with triple bonuses to the guns they're barely capable of fitting in the first place.

I'm pretty sure its too late to stop these going in now but it would have been much more welcome to see amendments that improved the ability of these ships to interdict and have that as the reason to bring one to a roaming gang, rather than this unimpressive Jack-Of-All-Trades approach which gives us a bad damage platform and bad tackling platform in one neat package of mediocrity.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#338 - 2014-10-28 18:00:59 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lurifax wrote:
The point is not to be able to survive 100 ppl blapping at you. In that case anything but capital tends to get alphad off the field.




That's kind of my point. 100 folks alpha you. 10 guys have zero chance of breaking you (with remote rep support).

Where is the breakover point? Once you turn on the ability to get remote assistance you then have to set the reasonable breakover where you can get broken. Turning this on is giving you immunity to a certain size gang.



no more than any other ship right now this one can just point caps, which are suppose to (according to ccp) be used with a support fleet.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#339 - 2014-10-28 20:59:52 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
...no more than any other ship right now this one can just point caps, which are suppose to (according to ccp) be used with a support fleet.


In an almost unlikely scenario of a hic pointing a carrier that can no longer use the gate it just warped to and that carrier puts seven Geckos on him - ouch..

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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nospet
#340 - 2014-10-29 03:33:08 UTC
For the love of god if bomber changes are being put on hold please put this on hold as well you know this is rushed and not well thought out CCP.