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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#1841 - 2014-10-27 15:05:43 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Could black ops get a role bonus that gets rid of the scan res penaltie of the cloak?


Unlikely in the near future.


Black Ops already have a much higher Scan Resolution than other battleships. I always assumed this is exactly for the purpose of negating the cloak penalty.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1842 - 2014-10-27 15:07:47 UTC
Dustpuppy wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:

You're creating a highly pocketed nullsec, don't turn it into space which can be handled with a single JF running continuously. You're creating challenges with the current changes, keep it that way.


Yep, I support this. Make it harder to keep large areas under control, add mechanisms which scale up the required time to spend (not only ISK) to guard and protect the space you have claimed.
Just like my idea with the drop of the notification about a POS in your SOV: force the corps to control their area in an more active way and limit this self sustaining game play where they only need a fleet and enough renters to pay for the SOV claim units.
They have enough isk but not enough people to fly around manually and control their systems all the time.
Such an approach will sooner or later break the neck of the big ones and give the smaller ones a chance to move to null.

I would much prefer this info come in a delayed time frame rather than moved completely. Even a decent-sized alliance isn't going to find any fun in checking every single POS every 24hrs to see if its not RFed. Even with the changes there will still be some empty systems with POSes running just because the system value is terribly placed. Basically still ends up with the same time delay if you had to check it yourself, but without the wrist cutting job of flying to every moon in your constellation (or larger if you are bigger).
Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#1843 - 2014-10-27 15:28:27 UTC
Rowells wrote:

I would much prefer this info come in a delayed time frame rather than moved completely. Even a decent-sized alliance isn't going to find any fun in checking every single POS every 24hrs to see if its not RFed. Even with the changes there will still be some empty systems with POSes running just because the system value is terribly placed. Basically still ends up with the same time delay if you had to check it yourself, but without the wrist cutting job of flying to every moon in your constellation (or larger if you are bigger).



While I agree with you that people shoud receive information from their own infrastructure, I can't agree with the rest of the argument.

People keep saying that what they are doing now is going to be a chore under the new system. If you find it tiresome to check your number of POSes, drop some until you are comfortable with the required work.

If resuplying your BS fleets is going to be difficult, then downgrade to frigates, and so on, applied to everything to which we are used now.

Perhaps then we will begin to see some variety. The bottom level of logistics is where everybody can have with ease a frigate (cruiser, battlecruiser, any arbitrary level). Anything above that shoud be for the dedicated.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1844 - 2014-10-27 15:28:28 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
funny hearing people talk about mwding/webbing big ships into warp instantly like it's an actual legit game mechanic

Webbing your supercap into warp was mentioned by CCP as a method you could use


uh. how do you even do that? anyway, this is something that should be fixed, if we're going to have caps warping about and jumping gates. pretty silly having all these capital ships basically being just battleships in terms of align time, rather than the 30-40s they're meant to have.
Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#1845 - 2014-10-27 15:39:21 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


This is going to be really difficult until you get rid of that free intelligence source that is the map. When everybody in the universe can know almost instantly when a deep-space system has a new occupant, you will have roaming fleets going to break their fun ASAP.

Please, make sovereignity ownership publicity optional.


+1 to that
.... even extended to activity data, with an opt on options for those who want to showcase their own activity.

Removing the wh activity data was a great leap forward.

The API needs to stop giving play information that should be gathered in game. It only helps the biggest groups with the technical means to exploit the data., and make the metacode too influential in what is going on in the game...



Agree. In fact, I agree with removing every kind of free intelligence. That concord files all that information doesn't mean it is public knowledge. Unless you brive somebody? Big smile
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1846 - 2014-10-27 15:49:11 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
funny hearing people talk about mwding/webbing big ships into warp instantly like it's an actual legit game mechanic

Webbing your supercap into warp was mentioned by CCP as a method you could use


uh. how do you even do that? anyway, this is something that should be fixed, if we're going to have caps warping about and jumping gates. pretty silly having all these capital ships basically being just battleships in terms of align time, rather than the 30-40s they're meant to have.

Fitting and using modules is obviously not ok, CCP please fix
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1847 - 2014-10-27 15:49:23 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
funny hearing people talk about mwding/webbing big ships into warp instantly like it's an actual legit game mechanic

Webbing your supercap into warp was mentioned by CCP as a method you could use


Where?


Someone must have let CCP Nozh and his strategy of tping sieged dreads out of the closet.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1848 - 2014-10-27 16:01:41 UTC
Still looking for the reason why the pointless Drone Bonus on a Rorqual is more important than its jump range.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1849 - 2014-10-27 16:04:38 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
Still looking for the reason why the pointless Drone Bonus on a Rorqual is more important than its jump range.

Because CCP's vision.

Also, freighter convoys and mining your own titans

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1850 - 2014-10-27 16:05:54 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Rowells wrote:

I would much prefer this info come in a delayed time frame rather than moved completely. Even a decent-sized alliance isn't going to find any fun in checking every single POS every 24hrs to see if its not RFed. Even with the changes there will still be some empty systems with POSes running just because the system value is terribly placed. Basically still ends up with the same time delay if you had to check it yourself, but without the wrist cutting job of flying to every moon in your constellation (or larger if you are bigger).



While I agree with you that people shoud receive information from their own infrastructure, I can't agree with the rest of the argument.

People keep saying that what they are doing now is going to be a chore under the new system. If you find it tiresome to check your number of POSes, drop some until you are comfortable with the required work.

If resuplying your BS fleets is going to be difficult, then downgrade to frigates, and so on, applied to everything to which we are used now.

Perhaps then we will begin to see some variety. The bottom level of logistics is where everybody can have with ease a frigate (cruiser, battlecruiser, any arbitrary level). Anything above that shoud be for the dedicated.

My only argument against that, is under the current system most groups will have A: A lot (too many most likely) POSes to keep track of B: an automated system for reporting which reduces checking on a large amount to a biweekly/monthly basis, both of which I could agree are not the best gameplay. While we reduce the number of POSes through the jump changes and coalition consolidation, if we completely remove the warning system, it has a major negative impact on the number of POSes an alliance can manage sanely even theough they are easily capable of managing the sov space. Its much easier to check 10-20 systems and their structures, and extremely painful to check all of the moons (assuming more moons are used since less space).

Under the jump changes, possible future sov changes, and a removal of structure notifications the workload becomes intense. So rather than having to spend hours if not a day or two checking to see if a POS is still there, the notification would not be immediate and around a similar time-frame to if you had to manually fly yourself. The intent is to keep the time-frame the same, but the menial workload down. I suspect making the updates from 1-2 days delayed would be sufficient. With how POS timers work this would basically give you anywhere from <12 hours to prepare a defense. Removing notifications from sov structures would not be as harmful since it is more visible to see which ones are RFed and their are multiple timers to prepare for. POS (iirc) only has one timer, and the effect could be very painful and annoying if you missed one of 100+ POSes on your checklist.

Ideally the only affect this would have compared to a complete removal is the improved sanity of the POS teams.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1851 - 2014-10-27 16:45:20 UTC
how about having fewer pos
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1852 - 2014-10-27 16:51:00 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
how about having fewer pos

If CCP were to make it so we could keep up the same kind of reaction capacity as we do in today's system, but with fewer POSes, then sure.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1853 - 2014-10-27 16:55:27 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
how about having fewer pos

If CCP were to make it so we could keep up the same kind of reaction capacity as we do in today's system, but with fewer POSes, then sure.


Which problem are we trying to address? Too hard to fuel too many POS?

Is this more manuevering for 10LY for the JF.... er rorqual?

It's almost like you are implying that the way you do things right now is the correct way and merits preservation.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1854 - 2014-10-27 17:01:45 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Rowells wrote:

I would much prefer this info come in a delayed time frame rather than moved completely. Even a decent-sized alliance isn't going to find any fun in checking every single POS every 24hrs to see if its not RFed. Even with the changes there will still be some empty systems with POSes running just because the system value is terribly placed. Basically still ends up with the same time delay if you had to check it yourself, but without the wrist cutting job of flying to every moon in your constellation (or larger if you are bigger).



While I agree with you that people shoud receive information from their own infrastructure, I can't agree with the rest of the argument.

People keep saying that what they are doing now is going to be a chore under the new system. If you find it tiresome to check your number of POSes, drop some until you are comfortable with the required work.

If resuplying your BS fleets is going to be difficult, then downgrade to frigates, and so on, applied to everything to which we are used now.

Perhaps then we will begin to see some variety. The bottom level of logistics is where everybody can have with ease a frigate (cruiser, battlecruiser, any arbitrary level). Anything above that shoud be for the dedicated.

My only argument against that, is under the current system most groups will have A: A lot (too many most likely) POSes to keep track of B: an automated system for reporting which reduces checking on a large amount to a biweekly/monthly basis, both of which I could agree are not the best gameplay. While we reduce the number of POSes through the jump changes and coalition consolidation, if we completely remove the warning system, it has a major negative impact on the number of POSes an alliance can manage sanely even theough they are easily capable of managing the sov space. Its much easier to check 10-20 systems and their structures, and extremely painful to check all of the moons (assuming more moons are used since less space).

Under the jump changes, possible future sov changes, and a removal of structure notifications the workload becomes intense. So rather than having to spend hours if not a day or two checking to see if a POS is still there, the notification would not be immediate and around a similar time-frame to if you had to manually fly yourself. The intent is to keep the time-frame the same, but the menial workload down. I suspect making the updates from 1-2 days delayed would be sufficient. With how POS timers work this would basically give you anywhere from <12 hours to prepare a defense. Removing notifications from sov structures would not be as harmful since it is more visible to see which ones are RFed and their are multiple timers to prepare for. POS (iirc) only has one timer, and the effect could be very painful and annoying if you missed one of 100+ POSes on your checklist.

Ideally the only affect this would have compared to a complete removal is the improved sanity of the POS teams.



How about the owner of the POS gets notified when it comes under attack.

The fuel running low is something that is predictable and manageable. If you want to mange a 50 POS production line then I think it's more than reasonable to expect you to keep track of your own fuel usage.

I'll help you - a large POS takes 28 days to depelete a full fuel bay. If you need more information, mail me in game.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1855 - 2014-10-27 17:06:03 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
If CCP were to make it so we could keep up the same kind of reaction capacity as we do in today's system, but with fewer POSes, then sure.

Which problem are we trying to address? Too hard to fuel too many POS?

What do you think I'm talking about when I talk about capacity and reactions? I mean seriously, not some tinfoily bullshit.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
Is this more manuevering for 10LY for the JF.... er rorqual?

Yep, I was referring to this when I said "no tinfoily bullshit".

Serendipity Lost wrote:
It's almost like you are implying that the way you do things right now is the correct way and merits preservation.

It's almost like you didn't actually read or comprehend what I was getting at.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1856 - 2014-10-27 17:12:42 UTC
it was the comprehend part... spell it out for me.... what do you want and why.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1857 - 2014-10-27 17:17:37 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
it was the comprehend part... spell it out for me.... what do you want and why.

What do you think happens to T2 if you reduce the production capacity?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1858 - 2014-10-27 17:25:38 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Rowells wrote:

I would much prefer this info come in a delayed time frame rather than moved completely. Even a decent-sized alliance isn't going to find any fun in checking every single POS every 24hrs to see if its not RFed. Even with the changes there will still be some empty systems with POSes running just because the system value is terribly placed. Basically still ends up with the same time delay if you had to check it yourself, but without the wrist cutting job of flying to every moon in your constellation (or larger if you are bigger).



While I agree with you that people shoud receive information from their own infrastructure, I can't agree with the rest of the argument.

People keep saying that what they are doing now is going to be a chore under the new system. If you find it tiresome to check your number of POSes, drop some until you are comfortable with the required work.

If resuplying your BS fleets is going to be difficult, then downgrade to frigates, and so on, applied to everything to which we are used now.

Perhaps then we will begin to see some variety. The bottom level of logistics is where everybody can have with ease a frigate (cruiser, battlecruiser, any arbitrary level). Anything above that shoud be for the dedicated.

My only argument against that, is under the current system most groups will have A: A lot (too many most likely) POSes to keep track of B: an automated system for reporting which reduces checking on a large amount to a biweekly/monthly basis, both of which I could agree are not the best gameplay. While we reduce the number of POSes through the jump changes and coalition consolidation, if we completely remove the warning system, it has a major negative impact on the number of POSes an alliance can manage sanely even theough they are easily capable of managing the sov space. Its much easier to check 10-20 systems and their structures, and extremely painful to check all of the moons (assuming more moons are used since less space).

Under the jump changes, possible future sov changes, and a removal of structure notifications the workload becomes intense. So rather than having to spend hours if not a day or two checking to see if a POS is still there, the notification would not be immediate and around a similar time-frame to if you had to manually fly yourself. The intent is to keep the time-frame the same, but the menial workload down. I suspect making the updates from 1-2 days delayed would be sufficient. With how POS timers work this would basically give you anywhere from <12 hours to prepare a defense. Removing notifications from sov structures would not be as harmful since it is more visible to see which ones are RFed and their are multiple timers to prepare for. POS (iirc) only has one timer, and the effect could be very painful and annoying if you missed one of 100+ POSes on your checklist.

Ideally the only affect this would have compared to a complete removal is the improved sanity of the POS teams.



How about the owner of the POS gets notified when it comes under attack.

The fuel running low is something that is predictable and manageable. If you want to mange a 50 POS production line then I think it's more than reasonable to expect you to keep track of your own fuel usage.

I'll help you - a large POS takes 28 days to depelete a full fuel bay. If you need more information, mail me in game.

The notifications I'm referring to are attack notifications. Fuel, supply, and manufacturing already have forms you can check on. If CCP expects anyone to use their systems to the fullest they can't expect any group to find any value in tedious tasks as one like this. And if future changes are meant to reduce JF and dependence on highsec, then scraping every resource possible from every location will not be uncommon.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1859 - 2014-10-27 17:32:44 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
it was the comprehend part... spell it out for me.... what do you want and why.

What do you think happens to T2 if you reduce the production capacity?


I remember paying 14 mil for a fleeting web because it was cheaper than T2. Eve worked just fine back then. It was different, but everyone enjoyed the game and there were epic battles for sov and such. There were no renters. There were no pings to get peeps logged in to play the game (they were already logged in). This was all a few months before 'warp to zero' ruined the game and it died.

So, short version, eve won't end if that is what you are implying. People will adapt (that's what I'm implying). It would be a boon for you. The quantity would go way down and the price would go way up. It would lessen the sting of the JF nerfing.

I think you underestimate eve players by a lot.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1860 - 2014-10-27 17:37:52 UTC
Reducing the amount of information you get about the vast depths of space and reducing the amount of information you get about your own things are two very different things.

It should be harder to discover that someone has placed a new tower in a remote system - discovering that should require patrolling. It should also be harder to see that someone is ratting away in a system - once again, go scouting or patrolling.

But extending that to taking away low fuel timers or attack notifications is just stupid and a kick in the crotch. I should know what my tower status is even when I am not sitting at it.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.