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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1821 - 2014-10-26 16:31:52 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
The last years have seen more 'hardcore' mode games than ever - because people dont want easy anymore.


Sorry, but this made me laught. Hardcore games are a very small niche.

Players, when talking about large numbers, want games where they can always win. Of course, that is impossible for everybody in a PVP game, but who said players are rational.

But what if it wasn't a pvp game anymore... oooo

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
MAD NEWT
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#1822 - 2014-10-26 20:37:51 UTC
i think that the new jump fatigue timer is to long 12 hours i do a lot of cynoing on TQ and i wouldnt like to see it on TQ ither what abawt all the alliansis that jump 6 or 7 times a day
Jita Storm
Perkone
Caldari State
#1823 - 2014-10-26 21:02:21 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Pic'n dor wrote:
I see in the new medical clone system taht you can be self destruct and setup you medical in your school system but only one systeme is proposed whereas each school got stations in several system. Is that intended ?


Can you confirm that it impossible now to setup a medical clone in a non medical stations ? Is there any plan to add some medical facilities to some NPC stations ?


Yup, intended that there's only one station you can always hop back to - it's not a movement tool, it's a get-out-of-jail-free card

No changes to medical clones being set in non-medical stations, you will still be able to do that.


is there a new UI for this?
from what you said so far:
1. you can only set your clone to current station or school station
2. on tq you can only change the location of your med clone from a med facility in a station
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1824 - 2014-10-26 21:19:33 UTC
MAD NEWT wrote:
i think that the new jump fatigue timer is to long 12 hours i do a lot of cynoing on TQ and i wouldnt like to see it on TQ ither what abawt all the alliansis that jump 6 or 7 times a day

Yeah, given where your alliance might be living....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#1825 - 2014-10-26 23:44:15 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


This is going to be really difficult until you get rid of that free intelligence source that is the map. When everybody in the universe can know almost instantly when a deep-space system has a new occupant, you will have roaming fleets going to break their fun ASAP.

Please, make sovereignity ownership publicity optional.


+1 to that
.... even extended to activity data, with an opt on options for those who want to showcase their own activity.

Removing the wh activity data was a great leap forward.

The API needs to stop giving play information that should be gathered in game. It only helps the biggest groups with the technical means to exploit the data., and make the metacode too influential in what is going on in the game...

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1826 - 2014-10-27 02:58:07 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


This is going to be really difficult until you get rid of that free intelligence source that is the map. When everybody in the universe can know almost instantly when a deep-space system has a new occupant, you will have roaming fleets going to break their fun ASAP.

Please, make sovereignity ownership publicity optional.


+1 to that
.... even extended to activity data, with an opt on options for those who want to showcase their own activity.

Removing the wh activity data was a great leap forward.

The API needs to stop giving play information that should be gathered in game. It only helps the biggest groups with the technical means to exploit the data., and make the metacode too influential in what is going on in the game...


I agree, here. With the rental empire era, that I think we all hope is coming to an end, the activity data has helped give pvpers some opportunity in a toxic enviroment where the position of all roaming pvpers is known at all times, and defense fleets are rare. However, if we are going to go back to lots of smaller alliances, that actively hold and use their space, I think eliminating the display of the industrial index, rats killed pe rhour, and even have the sov display optional would work wonders for smaller alliances in null.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1827 - 2014-10-27 06:27:58 UTC
As nice and romantic this sounds - thats not going to work. Sov is payed for and thus its concorde info pool that is published.

Opting in would mean other people will as well request changes - so jumps and kills will not be listed anymore , industry jobs etc etc - almost everything can be used for proper intel by the right persons and some effort. Sov is eve's endgame so to say - so if one wants to play with the big guys he/she has to take the consequences as well. You become a target in null - thats the price for it.

The map isnt the problem nor is the data - but like i said in another posting open roams who are simply looking for targets without regards to corporation or alliance relation.. These groups had their reason to exist as there was no real fighting going on in null - so pilots where looking for alternatives. Make your corporations and alliances attractive enough to get these pilots back into your business and these free roams will post a lesser threat to begin with.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1828 - 2014-10-27 07:27:14 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
The map isnt the problem nor is the data - but like i said in another posting open roams who are simply looking for targets without regards to corporation or alliance relation.. These groups had their reason to exist as there was no real fighting going on in null - so pilots where looking for alternatives. Make your corporations and alliances attractive enough to get these pilots back into your business and these free roams will post a lesser threat to begin with.

So basically if they become nullbear blues

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
#1829 - 2014-10-27 09:48:15 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


This is going to be really difficult until you get rid of that free intelligence source that is the map. When everybody in the universe can know almost instantly when a deep-space system has a new occupant, you will have roaming fleets going to break their fun ASAP.


I would start with a different approach first. Remove the automatic email to the SOV owner in case a POS is anchored somewhere. This automatic control system makes it too easy to guard/upkeep the renter space and gives a huge advantage to the big allies.
If they would be forced to fly through their space and check each of them for unwelcome visitors a lot of systems would be dropped. It also would invite small groups to sneak in and install POSses without asking the owner and could lead to some changes in null. Currently this road is totally blocked
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1830 - 2014-10-27 11:56:32 UTC
Dustpuppy wrote:
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


This is going to be really difficult until you get rid of that free intelligence source that is the map. When everybody in the universe can know almost instantly when a deep-space system has a new occupant, you will have roaming fleets going to break their fun ASAP.


I would start with a different approach first. Remove the automatic email to the SOV owner in case a POS is anchored somewhere. This automatic control system makes it too easy to guard/upkeep the renter space and gives a huge advantage to the big allies.
If they would be forced to fly through their space and check each of them for unwelcome visitors a lot of systems would be dropped. It also would invite small groups to sneak in and install POSses without asking the owner and could lead to some changes in null. Currently this road is totally blocked


So just to pull this out to its far end. If CCP just stopped dumping free up to date system data for third party programs, what in eve wouldn't work? We all have tools to make stuff easier, but what wouldn't work.

I'll clarify... the data stopped would be data that is changed by players... npc / player kills, all sov related data, jumps, cynos, anom data, moon goo data... that sort of stuff.

What wouldn't be blacked out would be static data, such as would be used by a jump planner. Number of belts. Any thing that doesn't change (data that isn't intel) would be fine.

So what would become impossible (I'm not asking for more difficult, I'm asking for impossible)
Mmmmm Danone Aulmais
Moon Of The Pheonix
#1831 - 2014-10-27 12:26:56 UTC
Huzzah for homogenisation, Lets make everything jump the exact same distance to add geography without actually adding or altering anything on the essentially 2D universe map.

Lets NOT add in game information to show Ly from where you are to where you can jump in the universe map.
Lets NOT integrate this new mechanic in any way by showing incurred fatigue / cool down “tool tips” on systems in the universe map.

Lets keep our reliance on 3RD party applications / sites for our in game deficiencies.

You alter geography by altering the landscape not the perception of it and defiantly not by chopping peoples legs in half all the while stating “ it’s bigger now right”.

you and the 15,234 pilots i see online at this moment can keep this half assed geographical change because like ship balancing (something that should have been done to capitals before this) you appear to have gone at this geography of eve thing in the wrong way.

Tikitina wrote:
Capitals were never meant to be the end of the line in training and gameplay.


I just had to quote and respond to this, Capitals may have not been an intended end goal but they are. Perhaps if ccp could actually add more end goal ships to an aged game this would not have happened, CCP are as much at fault for poor development as the pilots are for stagnant game play.

The development of new end goals or lack thereof is what is killing eve and the overall responsibility for this is the devs, Instead of messing with mechanics and doing cosmetic changes to the environment and UI how about some more end goals for pilots you know something for people to aim for instead of half assed band aids such as this.

The selection of ships for any given class dwindles with skill level, From basic racial cruiser to T2 there are 7 types ( HAC, HIC, Logi, Recon, Navy, Pirate, Basic ) and now look at BS’s ( BO, Marauder, Pirate, Navy, basic ) just 5 types.
A similar comparison of cruisers and battle cruisers shows that as ship size increases so the choice of the player decreases making an end game of dreads, carriers, supercarriers and titans an inevitable outcome because the “choice” for a player is so limited once they get to capitals.

Avoid stagnation by giving players more choice not by egg timers and ship changes in the “hope” of changing the geography for the better.
Yuri Thorpe
Volatile Restability
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#1832 - 2014-10-27 14:09:26 UTC
Could black ops get a role bonus that gets rid of the scan res penaltie of the cloak?
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1833 - 2014-10-27 14:15:39 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Chaibat wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Lots of words

Thanks,
-Greyscale


[edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]



As much as I like the idea of nerfing jump drives so it's not easy to move from one end of the map to the other in 30 minutes, there are some issues that you should still consider. A number of the regions that will open up to new blood are far far away from the nearest empire entry point. Places like Omist were already pretty barren but now they'll be close to emptied as nobody's logistics will make the 15 jumps or more though half a dozen or more hostile regions.

You can at least partly address this by bringing those regions closer to empire. Perhaps tying each of them to a few systems in each of the NCP null space and then making NPC null more easily accessible to high/lowsec. Some of these regions are already close to empire space and wouldn't require anything. Others (Stain, Curse, etc) can be pulled in and used as jumping off points to deep null. Obviously, it's too late to do this now but please keep this in mind when you revamp sov in the later patch.

Definitely keep jump lag. It's awesome. I'd just like to think small, unsupported alliances can move into the wastelands created by this patch.


We'd like to see how people actually react to these changes before addressing things like the relative accessibility of deep null. Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.



I am one of those people, who when the fat lady hits the fan, err when the crap flies. Pig sings, whatever! I'd like to be part of a group living way out in far-from-lowsecville. Why? To really be able to play in a distant environment, where as much as possible is manufactured locally. Where small capital brawls are a LONG way from PL and Goon and NC super deployed points. Where being on the frontier really feels like you're even farther from empire than wormhole space. Because lets face it, even in a class 6 wormhole, you roll your static a couple times, a bit of scanning, and you can get a highsec route that is 2-4 jumps from your hole.

I'm not scared of the distance, I embrace it. I embrace the logistical hurdles, I embrace the hassle of getting new recruits out. The only true problem, is getting the i-hubs out, which is an absolutely fundamental requirement, for any alliance that isn't having the space just given to them. Without bringing the i-hubs out, you can't make good use of the space. I've heard people say 'use a titan', 'no alliance should be in null without a titan', 'get a large fleet escort', and that's just ridiculous. Not only to expect that a small alliance should have to employ others to help them move in, but to expect that even if a small alliance had a titan or two, that they should take it around and risk it through long distances, just to move a couple freighters.

There are ways to move the i-hubs out in relative safety (wormholes, mostly, though a small ecm/webbing gang will probably be common too, like we used to do for shorter distances), but I do hope that as CCP reduces jump distance, they CCP falcon, might consider reducing the size of i-hubs to fit within a jump freighter? leave the station eggs, the station upgrades, at 750k m3, but having i-hubs quite so large is only a penalty to smaller alliances, especially when the desirable territory left often for them will be deep frontier space like Oasa, Period Basis


Great point, thanks for bringing it up. This is definitely something we might follow up on in a future release.

Chaibat wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Chaibat wrote:
[quote=CCP Greyscale]Hi everyone,

Lots of words

Thanks,
-Greyscale


[edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]



As much as I like the idea of nerfing jump drives so it's not easy to move from one end of the map to the other in 30 minutes, there are some issues that you should still consider. A number of the regions that will open up to new blood are far far away from the nearest empire entry point. Places like Omist were already pretty barren but now they'll be close to emptied as nobody's logistics will make the 15 jumps or more though half a dozen or more hostile regions.

You can at least partly address this by bringing those regions closer to empire. Perhaps tying each of them to a few systems in each of the NCP null space and then making NPC null more easily accessible to high/lowsec. Some of these regions are already close to empire space and wouldn't require anything. Others (Stain, Curse, etc) can be pulled in and used as jumping off points to deep null. Obviously, it's too late to do this now but please keep this in mind when you revamp sov in the later patch.

Definitely keep jump lag. It's awesome. I'd just like to think small, unsupported alliances can move into the wastelands created by this patch.


We'd like to see how people actually react to these changes before addressing things like the relative accessibility of deep null. Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


Do you have plans ready for...
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1834 - 2014-10-27 14:22:54 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Great point, thanks for bringing it up. This is definitely something we might follow up on in a future release.


We don't have specific plans, no. Rather, we have planned for time to react to the outcome of these changes, and we'll see what happens, and if it's not meeting our broad goals we'll make further adjustments until it does.

I'd absolutely not be surprised to see people negotiating for transit rights, but I don't believe that necessarily ends up anywhere near a renter-like system.


Don't start backpedaling now. People will have to choose where they live carefully as pointed by you. If they cannot sustain that life, then they don't belong there.

You're creating a highly pocketed nullsec, don't turn it into space which can be handled with a single JF running continuously. You're creating challenges with the current changes, keep it that way.
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1835 - 2014-10-27 14:27:10 UTC
Where I live there's much less of a logistics nightmare (Providence) than most, however with these new jump changes any level 5 Ihub upgrades or station upgrades become bothersome. Impossible? Far from it. However, for those in deep nullsec upgrading or even installing stations and max level ihub upgrades has become a logistics nightmare unless you are lucky enough to have empty wormholes. I don't mean IHUBs themselves because you can build them.

Personally, I've always through that station base and upgrade eggs should be able to be built (hell, the BPO is listed in the TypID list) and the upgrades for Ihubs should be able to be manufactured as well. For nullsec to be self sufficient (excluding skillbooks), we the players need to be able to make all the upgrades required by the Sov System. I don't know how this plays into the "new" system you folks are working on for next year but please consider making nullsec upgrades less tied to NPC DED Station purchaes.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
#1836 - 2014-10-27 14:37:03 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:

You're creating a highly pocketed nullsec, don't turn it into space which can be handled with a single JF running continuously. You're creating challenges with the current changes, keep it that way.


Yep, I support this. Make it harder to keep large areas under control, add mechanisms which scale up the required time to spend (not only ISK) to guard and protect the space you have claimed.
Just like my idea with the drop of the notification about a POS in your SOV: force the corps to control their area in an more active way and limit this self sustaining game play where they only need a fleet and enough renters to pay for the SOV claim units.
They have enough isk but not enough people to fly around manually and control their systems all the time.
Such an approach will sooner or later break the neck of the big ones and give the smaller ones a chance to move to null.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1837 - 2014-10-27 14:37:57 UTC
funny hearing people talk about mwding/webbing big ships into warp instantly like it's an actual legit game mechanic
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1838 - 2014-10-27 14:54:58 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
funny hearing people talk about mwding/webbing big ships into warp instantly like it's an actual legit game mechanic

aside from supers, this is the same thing people have always been telling freighter pilots in other threads. No surprise we're gonna see it here.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1839 - 2014-10-27 14:55:08 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
funny hearing people talk about mwding/webbing big ships into warp instantly like it's an actual legit game mechanic

Webbing your supercap into warp was mentioned by CCP as a method you could use

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1840 - 2014-10-27 14:57:43 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
funny hearing people talk about mwding/webbing big ships into warp instantly like it's an actual legit game mechanic

Webbing your supercap into warp was mentioned by CCP as a method you could use


Where?