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Cruise missiles vs Angels
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Anneke Tersis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-10-26 14:19:21 UTC
Hello there,

I've been browsing around for a while after having the impression that my fat Fury Cruise Missiles were very poor at obliterating Angels BS in null (yes, I know that anything below BS is a no-go). I found quantity of people claiming that "Fury are fine for shooting BS", some emphasizing the use of a TP and/or Rigor/Flare rigs. But even with this I found the results disappointing. This is certainly related to the relatively small size and high speed of Angels BS.

So I finally ran some numbers and found out that, while it is indeed possible to reach a high application damage with Fury on Angel BS, it requires about 2 TP and 3 Rigors. With a already rigor and a flare, for example, only 65% of the damage is applied. Precision missiles, generally viewed as inferior, do their nominal damage out of the box (equivalent to 70% of the Fury) and can then benefit from califaction rigs. In the end, using Precision leads to similar efficiency in applied damage, with less Medium slots used.

I'm still to validate this theory as finding Precision Scourge Cruise (*) in the middle of 0.0 is... difficult, and red frog is a bit expensive. But as it is quite different from the general doxa, I was wondering if there was arguments/experiences to confirm or infirm my calculations.

PS : we do not discuss raw EFT numbers here, we discuss **applied** damage.

(*) for clever readers jumping on their seat when reading "Scourge" along with "Angels", the answer is "Rattlesnake" ;)
Serafim Red
Boa Innovations
Brothers of Tangra
#2 - 2014-10-26 14:40:43 UTC
Why use scourge(kinetic) when angels are weak against nova(explosive)
Maybe thats why your damage suck. You dont need rigor or TP for Bs as missile do already full damage against. Rigor only helps against frig and flare against cruisers. I personally have 2xt2 flare and 1x rigor to 1 shot cruisers , 2 shots for elite cruisers. Drines take carr of frig except if they are to many i use precision then.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#3 - 2014-10-26 15:04:22 UTC
Anneke Tersis wrote:
...I'm still to validate this theory as finding Precision Scourge Cruise (*) in the middle of 0.0 is... difficult, and red frog is a bit expensive. But as it is quite different from the general doxa, I was wondering if there was arguments/experiences to confirm or infirm my calculations.
...
(*) for clever readers jumping on their seat when reading "Scourge" along with "Angels", the answer is "Rattlesnake" ;)


In my experience fury missiles look awesome in EFT but are not so awesome in client, so I would suggest using the tech 1 ones or faction ones.

With everything smaller than a capital ship your wingman (Gecko) will violently murder everything, if your wingman's shield get low, you recall him and let the missiles do the work until no Angel likes your ship anymore and relaunch your wingman to do some work.

On your damage type selection I say, good girl!!

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Anneke Tersis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-10-26 18:51:00 UTC
Serafim Red wrote:
Why use scourge(kinetic) when angels are weak against nova(explosive)
Maybe thats why your damage suck.

Read my first message up to the end :)

Serafim Red wrote:
You dont need rigor or TP for Bs as missile do already full damage against. Rigor only helps against frig and flare against cruisers. I personally have 2xt2 flare and 1x rigor to 1 shot cruisers , 2 shots for elite cruisers. Drines take carr of frig except if they are to many i use precision then.

You do full damage or you think you do? 2xT2 Flare is certainly more efficient than 1xT1 Flare but the result is still far from 100% applied damage. But maybe you have a ship with bonus to expl vel or expl rad ?

elitatwo wrote:
In my experience fury missiles look awesome in EFT but are not so awesome in client, so I would suggest using the tech 1 ones or faction ones.

Faction are good, but toying with the rigs combinations I still can't beat Precision in terms of effective damage

elitatwo wrote:
With everything smaller than a capital ship your wingman (Gecko) will violently murder everything, if your wingman's shield get low, you recall him and let the missiles do the work until no Angel likes your ship anymore and relaunch your wingman to do some work.

Drone(s) on a Rattler can take care of about everything, the question here is to increase the total dps and get the job done as fast as possible Cool

... Maybe I should put my spreadsheet online for public review - I may have gone wrong somewhere after all. But up to now my numbers match what I have IG.
stoicfaux
#5 - 2014-10-26 20:32:13 UTC
From the days when the RS overhaul was announced. Should still be accurate
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fgSbnrcRplfqCPLcmDvaOlVl6AySWIhwGAcqzznsV7E/

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Anneke Tersis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-10-27 00:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Anneke Tersis
stoicfaux wrote:
From the days when the RS overhaul was announced. Should still be accurate
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fgSbnrcRplfqCPLcmDvaOlVl6AySWIhwGAcqzznsV7E/

Nice work! I can believe these numbers.
So the situation is very mixed between Fury and Precision, and I'd advise Cruise Missile lovers to carefully balance their choice... It is indeed possible to reach 100% of applied dps, but only with a full 1 Flare + 2 Rigor2 + 2 TP. The same dps can be obtained from Precision with 3 Calefaction2 and no TP. So one basically has to choose between a longer range and 2 med slots : this is the real trade-off, and certainly not something not to care about.
Of course for ships including bonuses to expl rad and/or expl velocity, Fury are just fine.
Anneke Tersis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-10-27 00:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anneke Tersis
Bad button :o
Chris Winter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-10-27 05:03:25 UTC
First off, rigors > same quality flare, always. You can prove it mathematically using the missile damage equation. So, a T2 Rigor is always better than a T2 flare, a T1 Rigor is always better than a T1 flare. A T2 flare is marginally better than a T1 rigor. If you don't want to spring for T2 rigs, do 3x T1 rigors; if you can afford T2 rigs, use 2x T2 rigor and 1x T2 flare.

Secondly, using calefaction rigs is a bad idea. First off, they're stacking penalized with ballistic control systems, so with 3 of them you're going to very quickly run into issues with the stacking penalties basically removing any benefit you're gaining. Unlike gun-based ships, you don't have the option to improve tracking via low or mid slots--the only way to increase your "tracking" is by rigs, so that's what you want to use them for. Keep your rigs for "tracking" with rigors/flares, leave damage to ballistic controls in your lowslots.

The other reason that using calefaction rigs is a bad idea is that it basically locks you into using precision ammo to make up for your bad explosion radius/velocity. It's a lot easier to swap ammo than rigs--with rigor rigs, you can happily use fury missiles against BSes for high damage and also have the option to swap to faction or precision if you need to hit smaller things.