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Larger fleets: Introducing The Armada
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Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#1 - 2014-10-25 19:01:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
It's been a while now that certain groups, the blocs, RvB Ganked, Brave and Co, can form up enough people to have to have multiple fleets. CCP has recently created a new corporation management skill, Sovereignty, to allow for even larger groups to form. I see no reason why CCP can't create a new skill and put in some work so that Eve can support a larger type of fleet: The Armada.

Armada would replace fleets as the base structure when forming a fleet. Currently a fleet can max out at 5 wings of 5 squads, or around 250 people. An Armada would allow for 5 fleets of 5 wings of 5 squads each. Or around 1250 people and an Armada commander. This would allow a single commander to broadcast targets to all of those people, a pilots to broadcast for reps to the Armada, and so on.
This would introduce a new skill called Armada Command. Armada Command would "Grants the Armada Commander the ability to pass on their bonuses to an additional Fleet per skill level, up to a maximum of 5 Fleets." It would be a long (14x?) train time.

Thoughts?
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#2 - 2014-10-25 19:09:35 UTC
Something like that or similar would be good for Spectre/RvB Ganked type of fleets.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-10-25 19:20:12 UTC
I'm not to sure that the bonuses would be a good idea. You would go from needing 5-6 boosters for 250 to 5-6 1250 people if i understand it correctly
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#4 - 2014-10-25 19:36:26 UTC
Rowells wrote:
I'm not to sure that the bonuses would be a good idea. You would go from needing 5-6 boosters for 250 to 5-6 1250 people if i understand it correctly

Not quite. Each fleet and wing would still need to have their own boosters. You would just gain an Armada booster. So no real change in amount of boosters needed.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5 - 2014-10-25 21:15:04 UTC
A 1250 man baltec fleet...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#6 - 2014-10-25 21:19:24 UTC
Or we can A: Not increase the train needed for boosting & FC's. And B: Not encourage the blob.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#7 - 2014-10-25 21:26:12 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Or we can A: Not increase the train needed for boosting & FC's. And B: Not encourage the blob.

You get the same effect either way. 1 Armada or 5 fleets the blob will still form. It would just be nice to not have to have 5 fleets.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2014-10-25 21:31:19 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Or we can A: Not increase the train needed for boosting & FC's. And B: Not encourage the blob.

You get the same effect either way. 1 Armada or 5 fleets the blob will still form. It would just be nice to not have to have 5 fleets.


You make fire control and logistics so much easier and will make the current near invincible fleets into unstoppable juggernauts.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#9 - 2014-10-26 00:14:33 UTC
No.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#10 - 2014-10-26 00:54:49 UTC
Command links need to be nerfed - not boosted.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#11 - 2014-10-26 01:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
baltec1 wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Or we can A: Not increase the train needed for boosting & FC's. And B: Not encourage the blob.

You get the same effect either way. 1 Armada or 5 fleets the blob will still form. It would just be nice to not have to have 5 fleets.

You make fire control and logistics so much easier and will make the current near invincible fleets into unstoppable juggernauts.

If the ratio of fleet sizes stays the same, So 5x the DPS and 5x the logi, then they are in theory just as powerful as they are now. You are going to need 5x the logi to rep 5x the DPS and 5x the DPS to beat 5x the logi. Things will die just as they do now.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Command links need to be nerfed - not boosted.

CCP needs to get brain-in-the-box done. So CCP Fozzie can redo fleet links. They have the plan, they just need it to not melt the server to do. It isn't much of a boost. Any competent fleet is already rolling with all the links they could ever want.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#12 - 2014-10-26 01:53:04 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Rowells wrote:
I'm not to sure that the bonuses would be a good idea. You would go from needing 5-6 boosters for 250 to 5-6 1250 people if i understand it correctly

Not quite. Each fleet and wing would still need to have their own boosters. You would just gain an Armada booster. So no real change in amount of boosters needed.

But a gain, allowing you to have:
1 Armada booster
1 Fleet Booster
1 wing booster
1 Squad booster,
meaning that in a super capital fleet with the right mix of titans, you can theoretically gain all 4 flavors of titan boosts, or you can gain 2 flavors and all 4 links with command ship bonus, making blobbing even more heavily bonused than it is when one has the proper boosters and FCs.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#13 - 2014-10-26 01:54:52 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Or we can A: Not increase the train needed for boosting & FC's. And B: Not encourage the blob.

You get the same effect either way. 1 Armada or 5 fleets the blob will still form. It would just be nice to not have to have 5 fleets.

You make fire control and logistics so much easier and will make the current near invincible fleets into unstoppable juggernauts.

If the ratio of fleet sizes stays the same, So 5x the DPS and 5x the logi, then they are in theory just as powerful as they are now. You are going to need 5x the logi to rep 5x the DPS and 5x the DPS to beat 5x the logi. Things will die just as they do now.

Except that you now have 5x the logi seeing that same broadcast that was seen by 1 fleets worth of logi, which makes it entirely more effective, reducing lag time to getting reps from other fleets and so on.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#14 - 2014-10-26 02:46:30 UTC
James Baboli wrote:

But a gain, allowing you to have:
1 Armada booster
1 Fleet Booster
1 wing booster
1 Squad booster,
meaning that in a super capital fleet with the right mix of titans, you can theoretically gain all 4 flavors of titan boosts, or you can gain 2 flavors and all 4 links with command ship bonus, making blobbing even more heavily bonused than it is when one has the proper boosters and FCs.

There is nothing stopping a smaller gang from filling all the same fleet bonus locations and getting all the same bonuses. It is no more powerful for a blob than a small gang.

James Baboli wrote:

Except that you now have 5x the logi seeing that same broadcast that was seen by 1 fleets worth of logi, which makes it entirely more effective, reducing lag time to getting reps from other fleets and so on.

Except they are being shot at by 5x the DPS ships. So the chances of getting reps to hold is the same as before. For every logi ship that helps catch reps there is a DPS ship wiping away their reps. In fact, it may even weaken logi as the probability of alphaing a ship is higher when you have more DPS ships shooting it.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#15 - 2014-10-26 03:06:13 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

But a gain, allowing you to have:
1 Armada booster
1 Fleet Booster
1 wing booster
1 Squad booster,
meaning that in a super capital fleet with the right mix of titans, you can theoretically gain all 4 flavors of titan boosts, or you can gain 2 flavors and all 4 links with command ship bonus, making blobbing even more heavily bonused than it is when one has the proper boosters and FCs.

There is nothing stopping a smaller gang from filling all the same fleet bonus locations and getting all the same bonuses. It is no more powerful for a blob than a small gang.

James Baboli wrote:

Except that you now have 5x the logi seeing that same broadcast that was seen by 1 fleets worth of logi, which makes it entirely more effective, reducing lag time to getting reps from other fleets and so on.

Except they are being shot at by 5x the DPS ships. So the chances of getting reps to hold is the same as before. For every logi ship that helps catch reps there is a DPS ship wiping away their reps. In fact, it may even weaken logi as the probability of alphaing a ship is higher when you have more DPS ships shooting it.

No, because the same 5 fleets were already all on grid with each other, and now are better able to coordinate and thus increases alpha almost to the point of being not worth attempting to tank anything smaller than a dread.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#16 - 2014-10-26 03:29:54 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Aliventi wrote:

James Baboli wrote:

Except that you now have 5x the logi seeing that same broadcast that was seen by 1 fleets worth of logi, which makes it entirely more effective, reducing lag time to getting reps from other fleets and so on.

Except they are being shot at by 5x the DPS ships. So the chances of getting reps to hold is the same as before. For every logi ship that helps catch reps there is a DPS ship wiping away their reps. In fact, it may even weaken logi as the probability of alphaing a ship is higher when you have more DPS ships shooting it.

No, because the same 5 fleets were already all on grid with each other, and now are better able to coordinate and thus increases alpha almost to the point of being not worth attempting to tank anything smaller than a dread.

So first you argue that it make logi more effective, then you argue that it makes DPS so effective it isn't worth trying to tank anything. Will you please make up your mind?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#17 - 2014-10-26 03:45:05 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Aliventi wrote:

James Baboli wrote:

Except that you now have 5x the logi seeing that same broadcast that was seen by 1 fleets worth of logi, which makes it entirely more effective, reducing lag time to getting reps from other fleets and so on.

Except they are being shot at by 5x the DPS ships. So the chances of getting reps to hold is the same as before. For every logi ship that helps catch reps there is a DPS ship wiping away their reps. In fact, it may even weaken logi as the probability of alphaing a ship is higher when you have more DPS ships shooting it.

No, because the same 5 fleets were already all on grid with each other, and now are better able to coordinate and thus increases alpha almost to the point of being not worth attempting to tank anything smaller than a dread.

So first you argue that it make logi more effective, then you argue that it makes DPS so effective it isn't worth trying to tank anything. Will you please make up your mind?

I have. N+1 as the primary driving force requires tougher and tougher ships, and we are approaching the limit of how tough you can make a battleship in null warfare. This idea pushes this scaling upwards yet further. As it stands, for the lag time between this being implemented and fleet sizes catching fully up, logi will be more effective, but this would spell the end for anything less tough than capitals in the main fight entirely. It is counter to the changes meant to break up sov space, pushes for yet more blob and generally is bad.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#18 - 2014-10-26 04:04:53 UTC
James Baboli wrote:

N+1 as the primary driving force requires tougher and tougher ships, and we are approaching the limit of how tough you can make a battleship in null warfare. This idea pushes this scaling upwards yet further. As it stands, for the lag time between this being implemented and fleet sizes catching fully up, logi will be more effective, but this would spell the end for anything less tough than capitals in the main fight entirely. It is counter to the changes meant to break up sov space, pushes for yet more blob and generally is bad.

There is nothing about N+1 that requires you to change anything about the tank of a battleship or any ship for that matter. There is nothing about N+1 being the current best way to hold SOV that means a ship should be able to tank a certain amount. There is nothing wrong with ships dying or being volleyed of the field. There is nothing wrong with ships catching reps. Ships are already alphaed by sub-max sized fleets. Having 1250 people instead of 250 will not change that in any aspect.

This in NO way counters the changes to break up SOV space. The ability to form one armada or 5 fleets has NO impact on the ability to get groups of people together to grind down tens of millions of structure EHP. This change will in no way prevent any further changes to the SOV system that will break up the blocs we currently see today. Having the ability to field an Armada instead of 5 fleets is NOT going to grant the CFC the ability to hold onto Delve, Querious, and Period Basis which is a side effect of 5ly online coming with Phoebe.

tl;dr: This won't change a damn thing except you only needing to form 1 armada instead of 5 fleets.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2014-10-26 04:18:00 UTC
There is only one powerblock in EVE that can deploy one of these mega fleets. Logi will be five times more effective as you will have five fleets worth that can now see the broadcast and you will get five times the alpha as again everyone will see the target broadcast.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-10-26 04:34:21 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Rowells wrote:
I'm not to sure that the bonuses would be a good idea. You would go from needing 5-6 boosters for 250 to 5-6 1250 people if i understand it correctly

Not quite. Each fleet and wing would still need to have their own boosters. You would just gain an Armada booster. So no real change in amount of boosters needed.

So to get maximum boosters for a 6 man fleet we need a "Fleet Booster" + "Armada Booster". That's asking a lot for the little guy.
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