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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Byson1
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1801 - 2014-10-25 07:48:22 UTC
Chaibat wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Lots of words

Thanks,
-Greyscale


[edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]



As much as I like the idea of nerfing jump drives so it's not easy to move from one end of the map to the other in 30 minutes, there are some issues that you should still consider. A number of the regions that will open up to new blood are far far away from the nearest empire entry point. Places like Omist were already pretty barren but now they'll be close to emptied as nobody's logistics will make the 15 jumps or more though half a dozen or more hostile regions.

You can at least partly address this by bringing those regions closer to empire. Perhaps tying each of them to a few systems in each of the NCP null space and then making NPC null more easily accessible to high/lowsec. Some of these regions are already close to empire space and wouldn't require anything. Others (Stain, Curse, etc) can be pulled in and used as jumping off points to deep null. Obviously, it's too late to do this now but please keep this in mind when you revamp sov in the later patch.

Definitely keep jump lag. It's awesome. I'd just like to think small, unsupported alliances can move into the wastelands created by this patch.


Yeah small unsupported alliances have always been able to.. its a matter of holdin what they take. Now they will be able to take it easier.. and have it taken just as fast.
Come2Light
Doomheim
#1802 - 2014-10-25 10:21:36 UTC
I just want to congratulate CCP Greyscale for reducing active subscriptions because of this change.
Monoclegate all over again.
I'll be unsubscribing my capital accounts.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1803 - 2014-10-25 10:49:27 UTC
Come2Light wrote:
I just want to congratulate CCP Greyscale for reducing active subscriptions because of this change.
Monoclegate all over again.
I'll be unsubscribing my capital accounts.

You're a glass half empty kinda guy, aren't you?

Oh well, bye.
Josef Djugashvilis
#1804 - 2014-10-25 11:26:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Come2Light wrote:
I just want to congratulate CCP Greyscale for reducing active subscriptions because of this change.
Monoclegate all over again.
I'll be unsubscribing my capital accounts.



Perhaps you would be kind enough to donate your capital ships to me as you now consider them to be useless?

I could use some more ornaments in my local station.

This is not a signature.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1805 - 2014-10-25 13:33:43 UTC
Chaibat wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Lots of words

Thanks,
-Greyscale


[edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]



As much as I like the idea of nerfing jump drives so it's not easy to move from one end of the map to the other in 30 minutes, there are some issues that you should still consider. A number of the regions that will open up to new blood are far far away from the nearest empire entry point. Places like Omist were already pretty barren but now they'll be close to emptied as nobody's logistics will make the 15 jumps or more though half a dozen or more hostile regions.

You can at least partly address this by bringing those regions closer to empire. Perhaps tying each of them to a few systems in each of the NCP null space and then making NPC null more easily accessible to high/lowsec. Some of these regions are already close to empire space and wouldn't require anything. Others (Stain, Curse, etc) can be pulled in and used as jumping off points to deep null. Obviously, it's too late to do this now but please keep this in mind when you revamp sov in the later patch.

Definitely keep jump lag. It's awesome. I'd just like to think small, unsupported alliances can move into the wastelands created by this patch.


We'd like to see how people actually react to these changes before addressing things like the relative accessibility of deep null. Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1806 - 2014-10-25 15:15:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Chaibat wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Lots of words

Thanks,
-Greyscale


[edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]



As much as I like the idea of nerfing jump drives so it's not easy to move from one end of the map to the other in 30 minutes, there are some issues that you should still consider. A number of the regions that will open up to new blood are far far away from the nearest empire entry point. Places like Omist were already pretty barren but now they'll be close to emptied as nobody's logistics will make the 15 jumps or more though half a dozen or more hostile regions.

You can at least partly address this by bringing those regions closer to empire. Perhaps tying each of them to a few systems in each of the NCP null space and then making NPC null more easily accessible to high/lowsec. Some of these regions are already close to empire space and wouldn't require anything. Others (Stain, Curse, etc) can be pulled in and used as jumping off points to deep null. Obviously, it's too late to do this now but please keep this in mind when you revamp sov in the later patch.

Definitely keep jump lag. It's awesome. I'd just like to think small, unsupported alliances can move into the wastelands created by this patch.


We'd like to see how people actually react to these changes before addressing things like the relative accessibility of deep null. Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


People can and do live in WH's, so I don't see why they wouldn't live in Omist. It's just a question of whether someone else is willing to go break all their things.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Byson1
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1807 - 2014-10-25 18:46:51 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Chaibat wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Lots of words

Thanks,
-Greyscale


[edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]



As much as I like the idea of nerfing jump drives so it's not easy to move from one end of the map to the other in 30 minutes, there are some issues that you should still consider. A number of the regions that will open up to new blood are far far away from the nearest empire entry point. Places like Omist were already pretty barren but now they'll be close to emptied as nobody's logistics will make the 15 jumps or more though half a dozen or more hostile regions.

You can at least partly address this by bringing those regions closer to empire. Perhaps tying each of them to a few systems in each of the NCP null space and then making NPC null more easily accessible to high/lowsec. Some of these regions are already close to empire space and wouldn't require anything. Others (Stain, Curse, etc) can be pulled in and used as jumping off points to deep null. Obviously, it's too late to do this now but please keep this in mind when you revamp sov in the later patch.

Definitely keep jump lag. It's awesome. I'd just like to think small, unsupported alliances can move into the wastelands created by this patch.


We'd like to see how people actually react to these changes before addressing things like the relative accessibility of deep null. Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


People can and do live in WH's, so I don't see why they wouldn't live in Omist. It's just a question of whether someone else is willing to go break all their things.

Didn't you hear? Breakin the little guys things with a carrier roam is Goons new 'content'.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1808 - 2014-10-25 22:00:23 UTC
Little guys don't have things we're interested in breaking.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1809 - 2014-10-25 22:03:41 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Little guys don't have things we're interested in breaking.

Except their spirit
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1810 - 2014-10-25 22:59:57 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Back in 2012 or so there was a suggestion for mobile cyno jammers - refresh that idea in the probably still existing thread if you want more mobile options to stop a fleet but dont try to make a perfectly fine module into something completely perverted again.

Uhh, you do realize we have mobile cyno jammers?
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1811 - 2014-10-26 01:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Chaibat wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Lots of words

Thanks,
-Greyscale


[edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]



As much as I like the idea of nerfing jump drives so it's not easy to move from one end of the map to the other in 30 minutes, there are some issues that you should still consider. A number of the regions that will open up to new blood are far far away from the nearest empire entry point. Places like Omist were already pretty barren but now they'll be close to emptied as nobody's logistics will make the 15 jumps or more though half a dozen or more hostile regions.

You can at least partly address this by bringing those regions closer to empire. Perhaps tying each of them to a few systems in each of the NCP null space and then making NPC null more easily accessible to high/lowsec. Some of these regions are already close to empire space and wouldn't require anything. Others (Stain, Curse, etc) can be pulled in and used as jumping off points to deep null. Obviously, it's too late to do this now but please keep this in mind when you revamp sov in the later patch.

Definitely keep jump lag. It's awesome. I'd just like to think small, unsupported alliances can move into the wastelands created by this patch.


We'd like to see how people actually react to these changes before addressing things like the relative accessibility of deep null. Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.



I am one of those people, who when the fat lady hits the fan, err when the crap flies. Pig sings, whatever! I'd like to be part of a group living way out in far-from-lowsecville. Why? To really be able to play in a distant environment, where as much as possible is manufactured locally. Where small capital brawls are a LONG way from PL and Goon and NC super deployed points. Where being on the frontier really feels like you're even farther from empire than wormhole space. Because lets face it, even in a class 6 wormhole, you roll your static a couple times, a bit of scanning, and you can get a highsec route that is 2-4 jumps from your hole.

I'm not scared of the distance, I embrace it. I embrace the logistical hurdles, I embrace the hassle of getting new recruits out. The only true problem, is getting the i-hubs out, which is an absolutely fundamental requirement, for any alliance that isn't having the space just given to them. Without bringing the i-hubs out, you can't make good use of the space. I've heard people say 'use a titan', 'no alliance should be in null without a titan', 'get a large fleet escort', and that's just ridiculous. Not only to expect that a small alliance should have to employ others to help them move in, but to expect that even if a small alliance had a titan or two, that they should take it around and risk it through long distances, just to move a couple freighters.

There are ways to move the i-hubs out in relative safety (wormholes, mostly, though a small ecm/webbing gang will probably be common too, like we used to do for shorter distances), but I do hope that as CCP reduces jump distance, they CCP falcon, might consider reducing the size of i-hubs to fit within a jump freighter? leave the station eggs, the station upgrades, at 750k m3, but having i-hubs quite so large is only a penalty to smaller alliances, especially when the desirable territory left often for them will be deep frontier space like Oasa, Period Basis
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1812 - 2014-10-26 02:19:47 UTC
Arronicus wrote:


There are ways to move the i-hubs out in relative safety (wormholes, mostly, though a small ecm/webbing gang will probably be common too, like we used to do for shorter distances), but I do hope that as CCP reduces jump distance, they CCP falcon, might consider reducing the size of i-hubs to fit within a jump freighter? leave the station eggs, the station upgrades, at 750k m3, but having i-hubs quite so large is only a penalty to smaller alliances, especially when the desirable territory left often for them will be deep frontier space like Oasa, Period Basis


I remember moving some of these out to Malpais several years ago. It was very tense to say the least - since there were only two of us doing it. It took us several days, moving a few jumps right before DT each day, with plus one and minus one scouts, fingers poised over the log off button. Not an experience I would wish on anyone.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Chaibat
Amarr Cosa Nostra
#1813 - 2014-10-26 02:50:31 UTC
Byson1 wrote:


Yeah small unsupported alliances have always been able to.. its a matter of holdin what they take. Now they will be able to take it easier.. and have it taken just as fast.


The problem isn't taking and holding. It's getting by the big dogs to fight over the scraps they've abandoned.

Personally, I think fatigue is great but added to a max 5LY jump, it makes a lot of areas inaccessible unless you blue up to lots of people to get there. The 5LY nerf is a bit much (IMO) but it could be addressed by adding Lowsec gates to the NPC sov areas (and maybe a few stations spread out over GW) that don't have them and have each of the regions that are currently in the hinterlands to have a couple entry points within the 5LY range to the NPC areas.
Chaibat
Amarr Cosa Nostra
#1814 - 2014-10-26 02:57:23 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Chaibat wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Lots of words

Thanks,
-Greyscale


[edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]



As much as I like the idea of nerfing jump drives so it's not easy to move from one end of the map to the other in 30 minutes, there are some issues that you should still consider. A number of the regions that will open up to new blood are far far away from the nearest empire entry point. Places like Omist were already pretty barren but now they'll be close to emptied as nobody's logistics will make the 15 jumps or more though half a dozen or more hostile regions.

You can at least partly address this by bringing those regions closer to empire. Perhaps tying each of them to a few systems in each of the NCP null space and then making NPC null more easily accessible to high/lowsec. Some of these regions are already close to empire space and wouldn't require anything. Others (Stain, Curse, etc) can be pulled in and used as jumping off points to deep null. Obviously, it's too late to do this now but please keep this in mind when you revamp sov in the later patch.

Definitely keep jump lag. It's awesome. I'd just like to think small, unsupported alliances can move into the wastelands created by this patch.


We'd like to see how people actually react to these changes before addressing things like the relative accessibility of deep null. Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


Do you have plans ready for the possibility you're wrong? I'm betting that getting set up in these regions will be nigh impossible for almost anyone who is actually independent. I don't mean keeping space but getting it in the first place. Once there, it'll be possible to at least try creating a stable place but just getting a TCU out is a major undertaking and these plucky and hungry alliances won't have the depth of power to pull it off.

The new in thing will be alliances paying to be blued for access to deeper areas. Hardly the same thing as sating their hunger and mostly like a renter under a different set of rules.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1815 - 2014-10-26 07:06:47 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Back in 2012 or so there was a suggestion for mobile cyno jammers - refresh that idea in the probably still existing thread if you want more mobile options to stop a fleet but dont try to make a perfectly fine module into something completely perverted again.

Uhh, you do realize we have mobile cyno jammers?


Read again. Hint: words 'refresh' and 'mobile options'. If you didnt read all context dont try to be smart

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1816 - 2014-10-26 11:06:45 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Back in 2012 or so there was a suggestion for mobile cyno jammers - refresh that idea in the probably still existing thread if you want more mobile options to stop a fleet but dont try to make a perfectly fine module into something completely perverted again.

Uhh, you do realize we have mobile cyno jammers?


Read again. Hint: words 'refresh' and 'mobile options'. If you didnt read all context dont try to be smart

If you're talking about mobile jammers as in jam the entire system, then gtfo. if you're talking about on-grid jamming, or within x km, then the deployable jammer thingy works as a mobile option.
Byson1
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1817 - 2014-10-26 11:13:39 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Chaibat wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Lots of words

Thanks,
-Greyscale


[edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]



As much as I like the idea of nerfing jump drives so it's not easy to move from one end of the map to the other in 30 minutes, there are some issues that you should still consider. A number of the regions that will open up to new blood are far far away from the nearest empire entry point. Places like Omist were already pretty barren but now they'll be close to emptied as nobody's logistics will make the 15 jumps or more though half a dozen or more hostile regions.

You can at least partly address this by bringing those regions closer to empire. Perhaps tying each of them to a few systems in each of the NCP null space and then making NPC null more easily accessible to high/lowsec. Some of these regions are already close to empire space and wouldn't require anything. Others (Stain, Curse, etc) can be pulled in and used as jumping off points to deep null. Obviously, it's too late to do this now but please keep this in mind when you revamp sov in the later patch.

Definitely keep jump lag. It's awesome. I'd just like to think small, unsupported alliances can move into the wastelands created by this patch.


We'd like to see how people actually react to these changes before addressing things like the relative accessibility of deep null. Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


Sure if you pay the lords of the systems you pass through rent you may pass and proceed to rent the systems granted. Just pay 3bill a month per system or a fleet of blops will roll your sov. thanks
Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#1818 - 2014-10-26 15:02:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


This is going to be really difficult until you get rid of that free intelligence source that is the map. When everybody in the universe can know almost instantly when a deep-space system has a new occupant, you will have roaming fleets going to break their fun ASAP.

Please, make sovereignity ownership publicity optional.
Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#1819 - 2014-10-26 15:07:01 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
The last years have seen more 'hardcore' mode games than ever - because people dont want easy anymore.


Sorry, but this made me laught. Hardcore games are a very small niche.

Players, when talking about large numbers, want games where they can always win. Of course, that is impossible for everybody in a PVP game, but who said players are rational.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1820 - 2014-10-26 15:33:39 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Personally, I'm reasonably confident that small, upstart, hungry player organizations will find ways to make deep-null logistics work as-is if it gets their toe in the door - and that if the outer edges of the cluster are sufficiently far from empire that big, old alliance are too fat and lazy to run logistics all the way out there, it'll make more room for frontierspeople to carve out their own territory, which is probably a good thing for the game.


This is going to be really difficult until you get rid of that free intelligence source that is the map. When everybody in the universe can know almost instantly when a deep-space system has a new occupant, you will have roaming fleets going to break their fun ASAP.

Please, make sovereignity ownership publicity optional.


I would advocate getting rid of most of the information that is shown on the in game map and Dotlan.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.