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Estimated Value in lower right corner, a hinderance.

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Serene Repose
#61 - 2014-10-23 22:01:18 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Soooooo funny. The "menial" workers are paid less 'cause the "more important" workers decide the pay scale. Naturally, they just HAVE to be paid MORE, since they're using MATH and not doing any actual WORK. (Thus proving how truly clever they must be!) The "rest" of the money, the so-called "capital" goes to CEO bonuses. Any "growth" of course comes from government subsidies and loans that will never be paid back. THIS we call "modern day capitalism."

I have no idea what book the OP was reading.


Would we have any of the modern conviences available to people today without Ford and other such companies? Anyway, you're missing the point.
Missing the point? Personally, I find Ford has one of the most abusive histories in capitalistic history. Even Adolph Hitler wrote Henry Ford complimenting him on how he handled his people.

No, I'm not missing any point. You can't miss a point that isn't there. I'm saying you HAVE no point.

We would have our modern "conviences" the same way we got them. People invent them, not corporations. Corporations just manage the profit system in exploiting the efforts of those people. You're saying without corporations people would just stand still, have no intelligence, no motivation...that they need Big Brother.

You might. I sure as hell don't. And, nobody I know does. You're in a very slim minority holding onto an artifact that is soon to disappear entirely. What will we do without our corporate overlords? We'll do just fine, and get paid for once.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2014-10-24 11:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Let's see if I can get you to understand from another angle. People that strated Eve a long time ago have built up so much ISk that it's essentially throw away for them. What happens is that they then decide through either honest self delusion or through really wanting to harm new players' ability to make ISK, these older players decide they want to start producing ships at cost just out of their own selfessness and fluffy butterflies and all that crap, which essentially means they drive down the prices, and newer players have neither the resources nor the built up capital to compete. Older players will keep ship prices so low that only mission runners can extricate themselves from poverty. Everyone else can't make any profit through trade and bartering, and using the market system. Think this is far fetched?

Serene Repose wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Soooooo funny. The "menial" workers are paid less 'cause the "more important" workers decide the pay scale. Naturally, they just HAVE to be paid MORE, since they're using MATH and not doing any actual WORK. (Thus proving how truly clever they must be!) The "rest" of the money, the so-called "capital" goes to CEO bonuses. Any "growth" of course comes from government subsidies and loans that will never be paid back. THIS we call "modern day capitalism."

I have no idea what book the OP was reading.


Would we have any of the modern conviences available to people today without Ford and other such companies? Anyway, you're missing the point.
Missing the point? Personally, I find Ford has one of the most abusive histories in capitalistic history. Even Adolph ****** wrote Henry Ford complimenting him on how he handled his people.

No, I'm not missing any point. You can't miss a point that isn't there. I'm saying you HAVE no point.

We would have our modern "conviences" the same way we got them. People invent them, not corporations. Corporations just manage the profit system in exploiting the efforts of those people. You're saying without corporations people would just stand still, have no intelligence, no motivation...that they need Big Brother.

You might. I sure as hell don't. And, nobody I know does. You're in a very slim minority holding onto an artifact that is soon to disappear entirely. What will we do without our corporate overlords? We'll do just fine, and get paid for once.



hey now, no talking bad about Ford's business practices, even if they DO coincide with my statements that the capitalist corporation or business owner has to make more for his business and himself than paying his employees cause otherwise making the business would be a pointless charity and no payout or gain for the owner.


Otherwise this guy will get angry.

Max Deveron wrote:



LOL, Ford had to fight the big conglomerates to just get his company off the ground. He made sure he built products that were affordable, and presented his workers the pay they needed to buy those finished goods. He even further went to build a medical facility for them...........

Ole Mr. Henry was a pioneer against monopolies and he treated his people well....better than those who simply wanted slave labor...I think you better check your historical facts....not to mention your obviously not in the same category as he was.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#63 - 2014-10-24 16:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Desimus Maximus
I have to agree somewhat with the OP.

The 'Estimated Value' is a useless arbitrary number. One of the core principles (for Goons, not the guy you were sent to for being a d!ck at recess) of Eve is doing your due-diligence. If someone wants to know the price of an item.. they should have to look at a market whether it's Amarr, Jita, Dodixie, Hek, or somewhere out in BFE Khanid space.

IMHO, if there must be an 'Estimated Value' why not give players an option to set that value to a specific market. Give the buy/sell numbers from a snapshot taken every 30-60 min.

Or, simply removing it altogether fits better with the Eve Ethos. If you're lazy, you lose potential returns on ISK. If you are diligent and legit, you get great rewards in return.

And I say nay to those who smite you for your motivation to be a greedy slave driver... have they forgotten that this is Eve?
Argent Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-10-24 16:57:09 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Okay, are you a floor person in best buy? Go demand equal pay to the CEO and after you get fired from there, go to any other job and demand it. Let's see how long it takes.

Any company in RL is also a symbiotic relationship. That doesn't mean that people higher up and the company itself doesn't make much more than the individuals. Are you trying to tell me that all minimum wage jobs are exploitation? Because if so, please, tell the rest of the world.

Trin Javidan wrote:
You want to let other people work for you, so you can make more profit.

Eve is about teamwork:

You all should work togheter so all make more profit.

How you do this is by pypassing all the steps

Get miners
Start a business
Produce stuff
Sell with triple the profit (2 shares for each, 1 share for the corp investments)

= all work togheter and togheter more isk


it is that simple



How are they not profiting by being paid to do a job?



An employee at best buy would have a very hard time selling electronics separate from Best Buy (the CEO is being paid because he's overseeing millions of dollars of infrastructure). It's trivial in eve for a solo operation to set up a mining to sell ore solo operation and capture market prices.

The thing is, it's easy for an experienced player to collect material at a discount while still providing a higher income than the newbie miners could produce on their own via mining boosts and better refining or a compression tower.
Notorious Fellon
#65 - 2014-10-24 17:14:41 UTC
Still waiting for the OP to respond to the basic question:

Why would anyone want to work for less than they can make on their own?

Your business model is so glaringly obvious and terrible; that is the real problem. You lack basic math skills, lack vision, lack a basic understanding of economics, and lack decency. That is why no one wants to work for you. It has nothing to do with a number on the screen.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2014-10-24 20:24:27 UTC
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Still waiting for the OP to respond to the basic question:

Why would anyone want to work for less than they can make on their own?

Your business model is so glaringly obvious and terrible; that is the real problem. You lack basic math skills, lack vision, lack a basic understanding of economics, and lack decency. That is why no one wants to work for you. It has nothing to do with a number on the screen.


Fallacy, hearsay, herrings, ad homs, and all.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-10-24 22:38:56 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Still waiting for the OP to respond to the basic question:

Why would anyone want to work for less than they can make on their own?

Your business model is so glaringly obvious and terrible; that is the real problem. You lack basic math skills, lack vision, lack a basic understanding of economics, and lack decency. That is why no one wants to work for you. It has nothing to do with a number on the screen.


Fallacy, hearsay, herrings, ad homs, and all.


On the other hand you still havent answered the question.
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#68 - 2014-10-24 22:43:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:


Trickle down economics is a lie.


If the fat cats were spending all the money they "earn" instead of hoarding it, it would not be as bad. Still bad but a little less imo.


It's human nature though that they'd want to keep it all. In doing so they impoverish us all.

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2014-10-24 22:52:45 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Still waiting for the OP to respond to the basic question:

Why would anyone want to work for less than they can make on their own?

Your business model is so glaringly obvious and terrible; that is the real problem. You lack basic math skills, lack vision, lack a basic understanding of economics, and lack decency. That is why no one wants to work for you. It has nothing to do with a number on the screen.


Fallacy, hearsay, herrings, ad homs, and all.


Your fallacy is the greatest one of all, though. EVE isn't a job. Expecting people to work for you in a video game, that's an awoxing.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#70 - 2014-10-25 00:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Deveron
13kr1d1 wrote:
Let's see if I can get you to understand from another angle. People that strated Eve a long time ago have built up so much ISk that it's essentially throw away for them. What happens is that they then decide through either honest self delusion or through really wanting to harm new players' ability to make ISK, these older players decide they want to start producing ships at cost just out of their own selfessness and fluffy butterflies and all that crap, which essentially means they drive down the prices, and newer players have neither the resources nor the built up capital to compete. Older players will keep ship prices so low that only mission runners can extricate themselves from poverty. Everyone else can't make any profit through trade and bartering, and using the market system. Think this is far fetched?

Serene Repose wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Soooooo funny. The "menial" workers are paid less 'cause the "more important" workers decide the pay scale. Naturally, they just HAVE to be paid MORE, since they're using MATH and not doing any actual WORK. (Thus proving how truly clever they must be!) The "rest" of the money, the so-called "capital" goes to CEO bonuses. Any "growth" of course comes from government subsidies and loans that will never be paid back. THIS we call "modern day capitalism."

I have no idea what book the OP was reading.


Would we have any of the modern conviences available to people today without Ford and other such companies? Anyway, you're missing the point.
Missing the point? Personally, I find Ford has one of the most abusive histories in capitalistic history. Even Adolph ****** wrote Henry Ford complimenting him on how he handled his people.

No, I'm not missing any point. You can't miss a point that isn't there. I'm saying you HAVE no point.

We would have our modern "conviences" the same way we got them. People invent them, not corporations. Corporations just manage the profit system in exploiting the efforts of those people. You're saying without corporations people would just stand still, have no intelligence, no motivation...that they need Big Brother.

You might. I sure as hell don't. And, nobody I know does. You're in a very slim minority holding onto an artifact that is soon to disappear entirely. What will we do without our corporate overlords? We'll do just fine, and get paid for once.



hey now, no talking bad about Ford's business practices, even if they DO coincide with my statements that the capitalist corporation or business owner has to make more for his business and himself than paying his employees cause otherwise making the business would be a pointless charity and no payout or gain for the owner.


Uhm the person that said what they did......its true...and defending Ford it was his frame of mind also. It is you that have no idea how to do things......and as to angry...i wasnt angry. I was simply stating how twisted and wrong your Version of Henry Ford was. Everyone here says your bascally and Idiot in this Category when it comes to EvE. No matter what you try to do or say your idea and way of going about things is just......wrong
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2014-10-25 02:44:38 UTC
I too, get upset when people are too informed to take advantage of.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#72 - 2014-10-25 04:07:18 UTC
Yet another fine example of why F&I shouldn't let npc alts post.Roll

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2014-10-25 18:13:37 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Remiel Pollard wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Still waiting for the OP to respond to the basic question:

Why would anyone want to work for less than they can make on their own?

Your business model is so glaringly obvious and terrible; that is the real problem. You lack basic math skills, lack vision, lack a basic understanding of economics, and lack decency. That is why no one wants to work for you. It has nothing to do with a number on the screen.


Fallacy, hearsay, herrings, ad homs, and all.


Your fallacy is the greatest one of all, though. EVE isn't a job. Expecting people to work for you in a video game, that's an awoxing.



You act like noone in Eve works for their ISKS. Yeah, totally noone is ratting, running missions, or mining, or trading. Noone at all....

Everyone does a "job" in eve to make ISK. Everyone can be better off when that job is part of a structured hierarchy, because individuals all pulling their own way are just small fry, but a unified group of individuals all working for a single goal creates a giant. Why do you think the phrase "people who have had vision and gone far have done it by standing on the backs of giants"? It not only means inventors but industrialists and capitalists who create huge economies and production because they have workers.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#74 - 2014-10-26 03:07:47 UTC
As apparently even the OP is not inclined to have decent and civil discussion within the boundaries of the forum rules, this thread gets a lock.

The Rules:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)