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In simplest terms, what is wrong with EVE

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Daniel Jackson
Universal Exos
#141 - 2014-10-24 03:26:44 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:
What i see is wrong with eve with my 11 year experience in it is that

missions and mining seems extremely repetitive, same with almost everything else it seems like we are doing the same things over and over again. like robots

especially the players like my self who have no income at all, so players like me which im pretty sure are a majority have to grind most of our lives away just to get anywhere in eve, and by grind i mean like mining, missioning, incursions

and doesn't really seem to favor people lacking social skills which is 1 of the main reasons why its hard to get new players into eve as they can't seem to get anywhere so out of frustration they just quit.


no income meaning like no passive income


btw i removed my original post to avoid getting my post deleted lol


Passive income is a really good idea but, not for highsec where NPCs will defend it for you.


you are from goonswarm u should be well aware that there is no such thing as npcs defending players

I Vote YES! for Downloadable HI-RES Textures!!!!
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#142 - 2014-10-24 08:21:53 UTC
Contrary to what everyone is saying, they are definitely doing it for the killmail.
Rockstede
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2014-10-24 09:18:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rockstede
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And here I thought that nobody was fool enough to fall for that trick anymore.
There's always more new players to fall for it.





Plenty of old ones too. Roll
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#144 - 2014-10-24 10:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: embrel
La Nariz wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't get emotionally invested in a video game?


why then should we play it?

I'd assume games you are not emotionally invested in will tend to bore you rather quickly.

EDIT: oh, I see this has been discussed... point stands though.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#145 - 2014-10-24 10:17:05 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


No, this is quite true. CONCORD is one of the balance mechanisms that keeps gankers in check by imposing a significant cost on a ganker - in this case loss of a ship. This means a ganker cannot use use a ship more costly than their opponents, and in practice it has to be much cheaper if they hope to make a profit by looting drops.

As you have said in this thread the coding is arbitrary - if CCP wanted to they could increase CONCORD response times to 1 second everywhere in highsec or even lock out weapons fire totally. But they haven't because criminal highsec combat is part of the design specification of Eve. My description is completely accurate - CCP's design for highsec explicitly allows the possibility of criminal highsec player vs. player engagement, and the possibility for this scales with decreasing security status through the mechanism of CONCORD response time.

You may not like this, and can argue for CCP to change this so you and your PvE-focused friends can have complete safety in highsec, but that doesn't change the fact that you are playing a game that was explicitly designed to foster PvP engagements in all parts of New Eden, including high security space.


Fair enough. This would be a strong argument where I trying to rid highsec of all non-consensual PvP. I am not. I am not looking for complete safety in highsec. What I would like to see is less aimless violence without consequences. For instance, the people who pop pods in thrashers every 15 minutes. Or the professional empty ship exploders. These can be deterred without making highsec "entirely safe." And I, for one, would like to see CONCORD cracking down on career criminal suicide gankers.


Again, the point is that highsec is suppose to have aimless violence by design. Ok, perhaps not aimless by design, but at least player-driven violence which can be for any purpose - including purposes that lack an aim, or for aims that are not always apparent to others. So really, in a game designed around so much player freedom, it is impossible to rid highsec of the types of violence you find distasteful without banning all non-consensual PvP in highsec.

Highsec has been explicitly designed to allow these criminals/vandals/pirates to operate in, with some hoops to jump through (like the faction police, 15 min GCC, etc.) to provide some measure of safety for new and newly corporationless players. You can argue the hoops should be made higher, but this will impact all those who commit crimes in highsec - whether for fun, for profit, or in a targeted way to hurt a competitor - all equally, as there is no difference between these aggressive acts themselves. So by arguing to limit one of them, you are really arguing to limit all of them.

Eve was designed with the idea that the players would provide the consequences to criminals operating in highsec (hence the free-fire "outlaw" status at -5), not CONCORD. Eve was designed so that "career criminal suicide ganker" is a possible career choice. I am not going claim the game design is perfect - more could be done to support a "career law enforcement" profession I suppose - but solo PvE players like you are really not suppose to exist. PvE content is really only there to drive PvP conflict - that is produce resources to fight over and to build things to fight with. If you are being harassed by career highsec criminals, you are suppose to organize and fight back (or protect yourself) with the tools at your disposal, not hide behind the limited NPC protection that exists in highsec.

If you only like PvE, then your fellow corporation members that you support with your PvE earnings are suppose to fight back on your behalf. Or if you insist on playing solo, you must accept that you are the prey item in this game, and your victory condition is just not getting eaten by the predators, even in highsec. This is how the game was designed.

The "crime" in highsec you dislike is there by design. If you want there to be less criminals in highsec, get a PvP ship and go do something about it, as the game was designed.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#146 - 2014-10-24 10:57:23 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
I wish I could agree with your premise OP, but I think you have to restate it. You're really talking about the problems with associating with sociopaths. You can see a post like this brings them out of the woodwork and they have no problem at all crowing about their sociopathic behavior - touting it to be perfectly normal, while YOUR perspective is the problem.

They have no compunction about bragging they are not men of their word, or ladies with integrity and honor. They will boast about lying as a rule, then vilify you for getting near enough to them to hear them utter those lies. Ah, but to believe them? They'd lie in game. Why do we assume they aren't lying here? I don't. May their egos shrivel up even more.

a.) Our society generates sociopaths as a natural result of its nature.

b.) It's been happening so long people now think it IS human nature.

c.) Anyone, just anyone, can access the internet.

d.) Why wouldn't they find EVE the perfect environment?

e.) Haven't I been saying this for years now?

"The fault is not in our stars, Brutus. It is in ourselves."

Saying someone is a sociopath for disassociating consequences and their actions in a digital gaming environment is a stretch at best.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#147 - 2014-10-24 11:00:19 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Fair enough. This would be a strong argument where I trying to rid highsec of all non-consensual PvP. I am not. I am not looking for complete safety in highsec.
The gist of most of your posting says otherwise.

Quote:
What I would like to see is less aimless violence without consequences. For instance, the people who pop pods in thrashers every 15 minutes. Or the professional empty ship exploders. These can be deterred without making highsec "entirely safe."
If you want to see consequences for aimless violence then it is up to you to provide those consequences, welcome to the sandbox.

Quote:
And I, for one, would like to see CONCORD cracking down on career criminal suicide gankers.
I, for one, would like to see you try and provide the consequences you so desperately want CCP to provide for you via CONCORD.

Stop being so damn lazy and actually do something INGAME if you feel so strongly about it, that's the whole principle of an open ended game such as Eve.

TL;DR Put up or shut up.


I am afraid you're talking to a concrete wall. Veers' only real interest, is to hear himself talk. ( or read in this case of course )
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#148 - 2014-10-24 11:08:13 UTC
So in a game about killing internet spaceships your internet spaceship got killed? Baffling.
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#149 - 2014-10-24 11:24:42 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
The 'problem' with EVE in this respect is quite arguably very simple - that there are no consequences.

Concord is the consequence in high sec. Although the OP chose to forgo that protection by agreeing to a duel.

It is pretty simple, the killer probably wanted the OPs shiny loot and you the OP was foolish enough to fall for it.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2014-10-24 11:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
shortly after i first started this game i lost a cruiser to a low sec gate camp. An soe high sec mission took me to low sec. and i had assurances from people in eve uni channel that i would probably be ok.

got annihalted at the gate. didnt shoot my pod idk why

anyway I was lucky some random in help channel decided to give me 40 mill isk. so the loss was not that bad.

i guess this reinforces the rule dont fly what u cant afford to lose.

cos man if i had just lost a cruiser and did not have any isk left over - faced with grinding level 1's in a dessie to get enough isk back to buy a cruiser again - i probably would not have bothered and instead ended my eve career.

that would have been a great shame as well because i had not yet had a chance to experience decent fleets and well grounded corps and awesome pvp.

yep such an event would have been game breaking for me.

do ccp do pvp fleet events for new characters? i think they should show people how awesome this game can be before setting them off on years of training. might entice more players to stay. if thats what ccp wants anyway.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2014-10-24 11:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Marcia en Welle wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:
The 'problem' with EVE in this respect is quite arguably very simple - that there are no consequences.

Concord is the consequence in high sec. Although the OP chose to forgo that protection by agreeing to a duel.

It is pretty simple, the killer probably wanted the OPs shiny loot and you the OP was foolish enough to fall for it.


Not really. If everyone was restricted to one character and one account, then you'd see consequences become very harsh and real. People can use alt slots, or buy second, third, fourth, fifth accounts to gank all day long. People can also use their extreme nullsec isk income to buy tags to grind those same alts back into standingto keep ganking. They can also trick people with no consequence easily enough all day long.

Bastion Arzi wrote:
shortly after i first started this game i lost a cruiser to a low sec gate camp. An soe high sec mission took me to low sec. and i had assurances from people in eve uni channel that i would probably be ok.

got annihalted at the gate. didnt shoot my pod idk why

anyway I was lucky some random in help channel decided to give me 40 mill isk. so the loss was not that bad.

i guess this reinforces the rule dont fly what u cant afford to lose.

cos man if i had just lost a cruiser and did not have any isk left over - faced with grinding level 1's in a dessie to get enough isk back to buy a cruiser again - i probably would not have bothered and instead ended my eve career.

that would have been a great shame as well because i had not yet had a chance to experience decent fleets and well grounded corps and awesome pvp.

yep such an event would have been game breaking for me.

do ccp do pvp fleet events for new characters? i think they should show people how awesome this game can be before setting them off on years of training. might entice more players to stay. if thats what ccp wants anyway.


I absolutely love this post. Spot on.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
#152 - 2014-10-24 11:35:23 UTC
tl;dr

the thing that's wrong with it is that the devs are ignoring some of the best ideas on F&I and also Mining is boring and also Station Interiors are *STILL* not open for players to venture into and have drinks and watch exotic dancers actually dance.

and also Amarr and Caldari assault frigates are OP.

Oh and...

and...

and...

CCP WHERE IS MY OCTAGON PIRATE HAT AND MY PARROT

Everything's a game if you make it one - Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci

CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase - Frostys Virpio
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#153 - 2014-10-24 11:37:12 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Marcia en Welle wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:
The 'problem' with EVE in this respect is quite arguably very simple - that there are no consequences.

Concord is the consequence in high sec. Although the OP chose to forgo that protection by agreeing to a duel.

It is pretty simple, the killer probably wanted the OPs shiny loot and you the OP was foolish enough to fall for it.


Not really. If everyone was restricted to one character and one account, then you'd see consequences become very harsh and real. People can use alt slots, or buy second, third, fourth, fifth accounts to gank all day long. People can also use their extreme nullsec isk income to buy tags to grind those same alts back into standingto keep ganking. They can also trick people with no consequence easily enough all day long.

Yes, but that is a completely different matter to the situation the OP described. Duelling is completely different to suicide ganking.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#154 - 2014-10-24 11:40:54 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
I wish I could agree with your premise OP, but I think you have to restate it. You're really talking about the problems with associating with sociopaths. You can see a post like this brings them out of the woodwork and they have no problem at all crowing about their sociopathic behavior - touting it to be perfectly normal, while YOUR perspective is the problem.

They have no compunction about bragging they are not men of their word, or ladies with integrity and honor. They will boast about lying as a rule, then vilify you for getting near enough to them to hear them utter those lies. Ah, but to believe them? They'd lie in game. Why do we assume they aren't lying here? I don't. May their egos shrivel up even more.

a.) Our society generates sociopaths as a natural result of its nature.

b.) It's been happening so long people now think it IS human nature.

c.) Anyone, just anyone, can access the internet.

d.) Why wouldn't they find EVE the perfect environment?

e.) Haven't I been saying this for years now?

"The fault is not in our stars, Brutus. It is in ourselves."

Saying someone is a sociopath for disassociating consequences and their actions in a digital gaming environment is a stretch at best.

It's a flat out insult in most other cases.
saying a person has a malformed mind and is completely lacking in any kind of empathetic cognitive function is exactly the same as calling someone r3tarded ,( which would get you a ballgag in short order if you threw that around).
It's a game Serene, cop on and stop acting like a smelly console kiddie.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#155 - 2014-10-24 11:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsa Hayes
What is wrong with EvE? Change in the community! Predictably the whole be a villain campaign has attracted quite a lot of wannabe bad boys, unfortunately it did not attract any Joker (The Dark Knight) like villains but mainly Nelson Munz like villain who think that ganking miners is the epitome of awesomeness.

The GHSC heist was brilliant and took BRAIN and EFFORT, these days loitering around Jita and pressing F1 is considered awesome and praiseworthy game play.

Some people pull of a heist like the great train robbery, others steal a can of beer and think they are super awesome. THAT is whats wrong with EvE these days. A large part of the general EvE community went from being awesome straight to being beyond terrible. Just look at the forums.

Crime and punishment used to be the place for gloating, CAOD for gloating, general ship toasting and trolling but GD, S&M. F&I discussions were hardly trolled, these days its not uncommon to see half of the first page on GD being locked and people on S&M and F&I trolling like no tomorrow.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2014-10-24 11:54:58 UTC
embrel wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't get emotionally invested in a video game?


why then should we play it?

I'd assume games you are not emotionally invested in will tend to bore you rather quickly.

EDIT: oh, I see this has been discussed... point stands though.


A. Its fun,

B. Its enjoyable,

C. Its a 'sandbox' I can have a little pride in but, not attachment to the point I have a meltdown when someone destroys my castle

D. All of the above.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2014-10-24 11:55:46 UTC
Daniel Jackson wrote:

you are from goonswarm u should be well aware that there is no such thing as npcs defending players


CONCORD, where CONCORD exists no passive income should exist.

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Toshiro Hasegawa
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#158 - 2014-10-24 12:32:27 UTC
I should have added to my post

that i totaly understand the OP ..

i am one of the good guy paladin types who has never ganked someone, has never pirated, never shot a miner, i even feel bad shooting other people in RVB who have totaly bought into the whole notion of me shooting at them. I dont like video games where the main character isnt a "good guy". I wouldnt never play Sith in Star wars games .. etc.. etc..

I also hate douches who gank and such in EvE when they only do it for tears .. i hate scammers and pirates and all sorts of people who nasty things to players who are just going about their business to have fun.. the whole notion of gaining pleasure from screwing with other people's stuff to me is a clear example of whats wrong with our society, both now and for ever. I could never behave that way, I am too empathetic.. but thats me.

that all being said i long since gave up giving a rats ass. long since learnt that i cant expect others to see the world as i do, nor should they. And do i fault the Broncos or the Patriots (or everyone else) beating up on my Jets. Nope .. thats the name of the game .. beat the enemy. So why should i care what people do in a game of internet spaceships. When you undock your ship you have to know you might lose it, like a wide receiver in football knows that when they step onto the field and try and catch a ball someone is going to try and smoke them.

You can not trust anyone in EvE you dont know in real life. You can trust some more than others .. and learning where your personal line is, is part of game and developing as a player.

I will never accept a duel. As i figure no one will offer to duel unless they know they have the upper hand.

Lastly as a positive from all the "bad people" out there .. without them there would be so much less content in game. Without that fear of being shot up by some random space douche for giggles there wouldnt be anywhere near as much fear about undocking, and without that fear i wouldnt feel the need to play smart, and to feel even more accomplishment completing my goals. Without that heightened sense of fear i wouldnt feel the adreneline rush when jumping my carier into low, or running my orca through WH space out to null. I could go on but you probably get my point. There probably are real, total sociopathic nut cases who like to harm small animals on the side when they arnt high sec ganking hulk pilots .. but for the most part the people who are causing you so much grief are just like the opposing team of a house hockey league checking you into the boards while playing the game and probably be more than willing to go out for beers afterwards.

History is the study of change.

embrel
BamBam Inc.
#159 - 2014-10-24 12:33:22 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
embrel wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't get emotionally invested in a video game?


why then should we play it?

I'd assume games you are not emotionally invested in will tend to bore you rather quickly.

EDIT: oh, I see this has been discussed... point stands though.


A. Its fun,

B. Its enjoyable,

C. Its a 'sandbox' I can have a little pride in but, not attachment to the point I have a meltdown when someone destroys my castle

D. All of the above.


and the fun and the enjoyable part are what make you emotionally invested. To some degree or other. Good if you get the shakes at max, less so if you start crying.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2014-10-24 12:40:31 UTC
embrel wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
embrel wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't get emotionally invested in a video game?


why then should we play it?

I'd assume games you are not emotionally invested in will tend to bore you rather quickly.

EDIT: oh, I see this has been discussed... point stands though.


A. Its fun,

B. Its enjoyable,

C. Its a 'sandbox' I can have a little pride in but, not attachment to the point I have a meltdown when someone destroys my castle

D. All of the above.


and the fun and the enjoyable part are what make you emotionally invested. To some degree or other. Good if you get the shakes at max, less so if you start crying.


No they don't you can still firmly separate video games and real life while still doing abcd.

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