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Logistics ships thoughts from a Logistics ships pilot.
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Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2014-10-24 03:54:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Cr Turist wrote:
I think a lot of people will agree logistics ships need some attention. Being a avid logi pilot myself I thought I would put down some of my ideas.

1. Force T2 Logistics to use Medium reps .
a.) The current range bonus is fine. (when using medium reps)
b.) Give it a bonus to rep amount.
c.) Add a high slot module that will give project Anit EWAR and loose the offensive and drone bonus’s as nobody uses them.

(Some examples)
Minmatar- anti web
Gallente- anti damp
Caldari- anti ecm
Amarr- anti neut

2. Introduce t2 logistics frigs. Because that would just be amazing.

3. Introduce a battle cruiser sized MJD capable logistics ship.
a.) Massively less mobile than the cruisers.
b.) Logistics module similar to the bastion module. 1min cool down on MJD and increased rep amount and range when engaged with the inability to receive remote reps.
(aww it’s a little triage carrier)
c.) Can use large remote reps

I hope it is not lost to CCP that some people specialize in certain fields. Some guys are nuts about cepters, some just fly ECM ships, some have a strange addiction to interdictors, and some of us love logistics. I know logistics is a touchy subject and I know it needs a REWORKING (not a nerf nuke). Kicking logi in the pants does not have to be painful make it exciting. Give the logi pilots of eve something to be excited about. PLEASE

Love,
Cr Turist.

P.S please give the bassi some love that ship is hurting soooooo bad.
As a logi pilot, I'm amazed and a little sceptical that you have ever flown logi. mainly because I can't imagine the havoc this change would do to incursions.. Not being able to fit large remote reppers would be the death of these fleets. Bastiion modes would be next to useless in situations where you have to rep on the move. It may be true that basi need some love but after the changes you outline here they will need major love to even remain functional.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#42 - 2014-10-24 07:16:47 UTC
ok so after some thought and some very good points i have come to a couple of conclusions.

1. people that run incursions hate anything to do with change.
2. people who PVE really dont like change.

when i wrote this i must admit my mind was on pvp as that is what i do every day. it struck me with the upcoming changes carrier triage will be much harder to insert into fights and even harder to move around. with that frame of mind i started thinking about as a logi pilot what changes to my loved scimi could i deal with?
the scimi is a amazing ship it moves well, its had a decent tank, and its repping power is good. but then it dawned on me. i have flow the same 3 damn ships for the last 8 years. scimi, guard, onei. yeah the nestor thing is cool and everyone loves to drop a triage but in most day to day runnings its the same 3.

i see all these F1 kittys getting all they cool ships and i ask myself why cant i have more options?

im sorry to all the bears out running incursions that some 0.0 guy wants ccp to ruin your game and ensure you never have any what to farm isk. maybe you will have to fit something that looks like tank on your vindis and machs.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#43 - 2014-10-24 07:57:23 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
I am talking about incursions, and some ways of running c3 and c4 sites

Incursion rats eat drones. They especially eat logi drones. If you can suddenly lose 20% of the rep on each of your logi as your drones are alpha'd off the field and now you have to rep upwards of 10k incoming DPS, this will end up killing ships fast.


Sounds like a good change then. If incursion rats like killing drones it means a competent logi pilot will be needed to keep in range of his rep drones to save them before they die and can use his (limited range) remote reps to rep his drones. It will mean skill comes into it and having a real life person controlling the logi and not someone multi boxing the hole incursion fleet solo.

This fixes meany problems not just OP logis... you can all thank me some other time.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2014-10-24 08:40:54 UTC
Rroff wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Cr Turist wrote:


the guys in Provi would not agree with you that neuts are not effective.


The people in provi haven't had a war with us. Neuts have never worked and not for a lack of trying.


There is a pretty effective way to counter sub capital logi with Praetor EV-900s assuming (which is a fairly big assumption) that the hostiles don't firewall and your line grunts are half able to do things for themselves. There is also another way to use neuts effectively and harder to counter but not gonna hand that one out on a plate.

EDIT: Its definitely not a hard counter though or an I can win button.


One bomb and that blob of drones is gone.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2014-10-24 09:42:29 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
If there was a simple way to rebalance all the hulls with +XX to resists and + xx to local tanks....


You could flip logi so that they boost resists and thus force everyone to local tank.


Caveat: I've only had one coffee, this may be the derpiest idea on earth. Probably is, but screw it - I'm allowed one a month Smile

Edit: Would be too big a step change to ever get in.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#46 - 2014-10-24 10:00:26 UTC
afkalt wrote:


You could flip logi so that they boost resists and thus force everyone to local tank.


That is an interesting way to do it. I am shore it has problems but interesting nether the less.
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#47 - 2014-10-24 10:28:05 UTC
i think making a logi that is drone base is a awesome idea. i mean we do have drone races in this game why not.

maybe a destroyer class drone logi ship? but i think making a ship that has close to no maneuverability with a little better tank would be cool. any good logi pilot will tell you maneuverability is key. i say have a class that deviates from that and on top make the pilot make a choice does he wanna rep his buddys and be effective or does he wanna increase his own ability to stay alive. as much as the PVE pilots hate me saying this its seems i think you should have to pilot your ship not just alt tab activate reps and forget about it. make a choice.
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#48 - 2014-10-24 10:38:59 UTC
afkalt wrote:
If there was a simple way to rebalance all the hulls with +XX to resists and + xx to local tanks....


You could flip logi so that they boost resists and thus force everyone to local tank.


Caveat: I've only had one coffee, this may be the derpiest idea on earth. Probably is, but screw it - I'm allowed one a month Smile

Edit: Would be too big a step change to ever get in.


you know it would be cool thing to look at even if it is just as like a last ditch thing you can only recive the benefits when below a certain percentage of shield or armor remaining and in the mean time the logi repping you would be loosing cap do the the mod being active
sapage1
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-10-24 13:09:22 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:


you know it would be cool thing to look at even if it is just as like a last ditch thing you can only recive the benefits when below a certain percentage of shield or armor remaining and in the mean time the logi repping you would be loosing cap do the the mod being active


Turist for president!!!
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-10-24 13:29:17 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:
I think a lot of people will agree logistics ships need some attention. Being a avid logi pilot myself I thought I would put down some of my ideas.


Logis seem fine for me. Each have their own little strengths and weaknesses.

Cr Turist wrote:

1. Force T2 Logistics to use Medium reps .
a.) The current range bonus is fine. (when using medium reps)
b.) Give it a bonus to rep amount.


Lost me here. How is making them use medium instead of large reps, but then modifying the medium reps to act as large reps, anything but over-complicating a working system? If it's for the capacitor or range, just ask for more capacitor regen, or a bigger cap usage bonus. Personally, I think the cap, range, and large reps are fine

Cr Turist wrote:

c.) Add a high slot module that will give project Anit EWAR and loose the offensive and drone bonus’s as nobody uses them.


1) Offensive bonuses. You might want to check out logistics ships, there are none.
2) On the off chance you mean the optional remote assistance bonuses, yes, they are useful. They get used in incursion fleets, they get used in small gangs.
3) I'm going to assume you've yet to watch an alliance tournament, or well rounded logi/ahac/t3 gang, because the bonused logi drones are VERY valuable.

Cr Turist wrote:


2. Introduce t2 logistics frigs. Because that would just be amazing.



P.S please give the bassi some love that ship is hurting soooooo bad.


Yes, I think we can all agree t2 logi frigs would be nice. The basi is pretty solid, aside from the need for perhaps a small hitpoint increase.

If you're having capacitor problems, that is the result of your skills.
If you're having speed problems, revise which logi you are using.
If you're having fitting problems, they're meant to be very tight. reconsider the fittings, and check your skills.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#51 - 2014-10-24 13:31:21 UTC
-1

While I don't think logi needs a nerf (except maybe to range, since they're outside the range of most EWar), they don't need a buff either.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-10-24 14:31:47 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:
i think making a logi that is drone base is a awesome idea. i mean we do have drone races in this game why not.

maybe a destroyer class drone logi ship? but i think making a ship that has close to no maneuverability with a little better tank would be cool. any good logi pilot will tell you maneuverability is key. i say have a class that deviates from that and on top make the pilot make a choice does he wanna rep his buddys and be effective or does he wanna increase his own ability to stay alive. as much as the PVE pilots hate me saying this its seems i think you should have to pilot your ship not just alt tab activate reps and forget about it. make a choice.


If PvE logi were alt-tabbed with reppers on a target, incursion fleet would completely die every night. Neut hard enough to prevent reppers from cycling and target swaps would insure the sites don't get completed but I guess it's ok to make assumption on how logi work in content you don't run...

If you want to nerf logi without breaking some content, you would have to allow a certain number of reppers or ship to rep the target like now and have a diminishing return mechanics past a threshold. You would probably have different class of repper module having a different threshold and possibly different diminishing curve. The "unkillable fleet" baltec1 speaks about is real but only really spawn once you reach a certain size threshold anyway.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#53 - 2014-10-24 14:44:14 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

If PvE logi were alt-tabbed with reppers on a target, incursion fleet would completely die every night. Neut hard enough to prevent reppers from cycling and target swaps would insure the sites don't get completed but I guess it's ok to make assumption on how logi work in content you don't run...

If you want to nerf logi without breaking some content, you would have to allow a certain number of reppers or ship to rep the target like now and have a diminishing return mechanics past a threshold. You would probably have different class of repper module having a different threshold and possibly different diminishing curve. The "unkillable fleet" baltec1 speaks about is real but only really spawn once you reach a certain size threshold anyway.



O no some one made a suggestion that might hurt the way i play and i might have to think for myself for new options.
Let me come up with a dumb idea about making reppers have diminishing returns to distract every one.

The unkillable fleet scenario could potentially be 2 T2 logis in a 5 man gang... vs another 5 man gang, N+1 Fleets are the counter to the logis and is not necessary the preceding scenario.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-10-24 15:09:07 UTC
Tappits wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

If PvE logi were alt-tabbed with reppers on a target, incursion fleet would completely die every night. Neut hard enough to prevent reppers from cycling and target swaps would insure the sites don't get completed but I guess it's ok to make assumption on how logi work in content you don't run...

If you want to nerf logi without breaking some content, you would have to allow a certain number of reppers or ship to rep the target like now and have a diminishing return mechanics past a threshold. You would probably have different class of repper module having a different threshold and possibly different diminishing curve. The "unkillable fleet" baltec1 speaks about is real but only really spawn once you reach a certain size threshold anyway.



O no some one made a suggestion that might hurt the way i play and i might have to think for myself for new options.
Let me come up with a dumb idea about making reppers have diminishing returns to distract every one.

The unkillable fleet scenario could potentially be 2 T2 logis in a 5 man gang... vs another 5 man gang, N+1 Fleets are the counter to the logis and is not necessary the preceding scenario.


Applying e-war to a single logi boat to counter 50% of their reps, or 100% if they are in a cap chain mode, is not the same unsolvable problem as doing it to a member of a 20+ ship logi wing.

N+1 fleet will always exist. If it's not logi, it will be another type of ships as long as the game exist because I can bring my friends and so can you. The only thing that will remove the N+1 is stacking penalty. For anything without diminishing returns, more will always be better if you want to win.

A flat nerf, no matter how implemented, only mean people will bring more to get the same effect because there is no penalty to it.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-10-24 15:20:26 UTC
To be fair, because a logi change affects incursions is no reason to NOT fix the problem, it is simply a reason to alter incursions at the same time.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#56 - 2014-10-24 16:40:38 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Applying e-war to a single logi boat to counter 50% of their reps, or 100% if they are in a cap chain mode, is not the same unsolvable problem as doing it to a member of a 20+ ship logi wing.


This just shows how little you know about the subject matter (Logis pvp) and e-war mechanics in pvp and roaming gang setups.
I the hypothetical situation of the 5v5 roaming fleets having a fight.
I will bring 2 guardians 2 ishtars (because there FOTM) and a Heretic because why not.

Please tell me what e-war a standard 5 man gang will have that can take out this? Even a full rack of jams on a rook all on 1 logi does not 100% guaranty that you’re going to get it jammed. Even if you do the other logi can rep for about a min In the mean time we blap the rook.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#57 - 2014-10-24 18:24:16 UTC
Tappits wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Applying e-war to a single logi boat to counter 50% of their reps, or 100% if they are in a cap chain mode, is not the same unsolvable problem as doing it to a member of a 20+ ship logi wing.


This just shows how little you know about the subject matter (Logis pvp) and e-war mechanics in pvp and roaming gang setups.
I the hypothetical situation of the 5v5 roaming fleets having a fight.
I will bring 2 guardians 2 ishtars (because there FOTM) and a Heretic because why not.

Please tell me what e-war a standard 5 man gang will have that can take out this? Even a full rack of jams on a rook all on 1 logi does not 100% guaranty that you’re going to get it jammed. Even if you do the other logi can rep for about a min In the mean time we blap the rook.



neuts and damps. put both on geddons. 2 un bonus damps puts a guardian with links down to 40km (OH damps) almost within geddon neut range.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#58 - 2014-10-24 20:55:48 UTC
Tappits wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
I am talking about incursions, and some ways of running c3 and c4 sites

Incursion rats eat drones. They especially eat logi drones. If you can suddenly lose 20% of the rep on each of your logi as your drones are alpha'd off the field and now you have to rep upwards of 10k incoming DPS, this will end up killing ships fast.


Sounds like a good change then. If incursion rats like killing drones it means a competent logi pilot will be needed to keep in range of his rep drones to save them before they die and can use his (limited range) remote reps to rep his drones. It will mean skill comes into it and having a real life person controlling the logi and not someone multi boxing the hole incursion fleet solo.

This fixes meany problems not just OP logis... you can all thank me some other time.

Except that drones will be alpha'd off the field, rather than shot in such a way as to be saveable, like 2-5% armor damage (from full shield) per volley.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#59 - 2014-10-24 20:56:50 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Tappits wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Applying e-war to a single logi boat to counter 50% of their reps, or 100% if they are in a cap chain mode, is not the same unsolvable problem as doing it to a member of a 20+ ship logi wing.


This just shows how little you know about the subject matter (Logis pvp) and e-war mechanics in pvp and roaming gang setups.
I the hypothetical situation of the 5v5 roaming fleets having a fight.
I will bring 2 guardians 2 ishtars (because there FOTM) and a Heretic because why not.

Please tell me what e-war a standard 5 man gang will have that can take out this? Even a full rack of jams on a rook all on 1 logi does not 100% guaranty that you’re going to get it jammed. Even if you do the other logi can rep for about a min In the mean time we blap the rook.



neuts and damps. put both on geddons. 2 un bonus damps puts a guardian with links down to 40km (OH damps) almost within geddon neut range.


Now, how many gangs roam with geddons, and how long can you OH your damps?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#60 - 2014-10-24 20:58:32 UTC
afkalt wrote:
To be fair, because a logi change affects incursions is no reason to NOT fix the problem, it is simply a reason to alter incursions at the same time.

Thus my argument against specific implementations, rather than against logi changes as a whole. I would like to see logi changes that make sense, and don't kill my preferred gameplay style, like signature radius effecting reps receivable.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp