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Logistics ships thoughts from a Logistics ships pilot.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2014-10-23 22:27:18 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:


the guys in Provi would not agree with you that neuts are not effective.


The people in provi haven't had a war with us. Neuts have never worked and not for a lack of trying.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#22 - 2014-10-23 22:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
on T2 logis themselves .. some ideas

- add 1 mid slot per ship ... particularly on the oneiros/scimitar too allow for use of remote TC's
- better cap too reduce the amount of cap mods needed for solo reppers and allows for remote TC's

- reduce the T2 resists .. they shouldn't be as tough as HAC's with half the sig radius .. also logis need more weaknesses
- maybe add more utility support mod bonuses too them .. projected eccm for instance..

i also think the T1 logi has far too much rep range for the ease of SP and cost too get into them

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#23 - 2014-10-23 22:29:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cr Turist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets.


i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi


ECM doesnt work hence why it was retired from everyones fleets several years ago. Neuts are also no good in large fleet fights. Damps work but only if you dedicate an entire secondary fleet to it which means only the big powerblocks can use it and it is useless on a carrier force supported by supers.

Logi is simply too powerful and is going to have to be delt with.



The point of this post was to throw an idea out. logi is a great area in eve its fun its stressful if you mess up your fleet dies.
i agree logi in its current form needs to be tweaked. but you cant kill it off. if you do then giant blocks will just blob harder than they already do NC. being one of those that would.

what i want is for logi to take skill to fly make it something that if your pilots are good at it you have an advantage.
adding in choices on ships is not a bad thing. adding in a new type of logistics ship would be great just for the fact it would give people another option.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#24 - 2014-10-23 22:34:32 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
on T2 logis themselves .. some ideas

- add 1 mid slot per ship ... particularly on hte oneiros/scimitar too allow for use of remote TC's
- better cap too reduce the amount of cap mods needed for solo reppers and allows for remote TC's

- reduce the T2 resists .. they shouldn't be as tough as HAC's with half the sig radius .. also logis need more weaknesses
- maybe add more utility support mod bonuses too them .. projected eccm for instance..

i also think the T1 logi has far too much rep range for the ease of SP and cost too get into them


T2 logi with an extra slot just become even tougher to kill in PVP, and now I can put 6 links on an incursion scimitar. yey.
Better cap negates the high skill requirements that currently one of the few things keeping logi in check. It is possible to permarun 4 large reps on a scimitar with 3 mods and the rigs for cap at full skills and a couple mill in your head.
T2 resists are the one thing least likely to change on logistics ships, as they need every little bit of those resists to counter lower base HP and extreme neut susceptibility on scimi/oni or ECM on your partners ship in basi/guardi
More bonuses on these ships will quickly make them even more brokenly powerful as these remove the counters currently in place for logi, such as jamming one out via concerted effort or a dedicated hamming squad.

t1 logi are in a reasonable place for the most part (though I would like the rep amount reduced slightly so shiny medium reps don't out perform large reps, merely make parity)

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#25 - 2014-10-23 22:42:40 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
on T2 logis themselves .. some ideas

- add 1 mid slot per ship ... particularly on hte oneiros/scimitar too allow for use of remote TC's
- better cap too reduce the amount of cap mods needed for solo reppers and allows for remote TC's

- reduce the T2 resists .. they shouldn't be as tough as HAC's with half the sig radius .. also logis need more weaknesses
- maybe add more utility support mod bonuses too them .. projected eccm for instance..

i also think the T1 logi has far too much rep range for the ease of SP and cost too get into them


T2 logi with an extra slot just become even tougher to kill in PVP, and now I can put 6 links on an incursion scimitar. yey.
Better cap negates the high skill requirements that currently one of the few things keeping logi in check. It is possible to permarun 4 large reps on a scimitar with 3 mods and the rigs for cap at full skills and a couple mill in your head.
T2 resists are the one thing least likely to change on logistics ships, as they need every little bit of those resists to counter lower base HP and extreme neut susceptibility on scimi/oni or ECM on your partners ship in basi/guardi
More bonuses on these ships will quickly make them even more brokenly powerful as these remove the counters currently in place for logi, such as jamming one out via concerted effort or a dedicated hamming squad.

t1 logi are in a reasonable place for the most part (though I would like the rep amount reduced slightly so shiny medium reps don't out perform large reps, merely make parity)


there base HP is almost as good as HAC's actually .. its usually the lack of slots and the need for cap mods that restrict HP..
the low sig and strong speed makes them tank better than HAC's do.. but same high resists as HAC's are unjustifiable .. they are there too support the fleet rep others .. not too tank better than the ships they are supporting

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#26 - 2014-10-23 22:53:13 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
on T2 logis themselves .. some ideas

- add 1 mid slot per ship ... particularly on hte oneiros/scimitar too allow for use of remote TC's
- better cap too reduce the amount of cap mods needed for solo reppers and allows for remote TC's

- reduce the T2 resists .. they shouldn't be as tough as HAC's with half the sig radius .. also logis need more weaknesses
- maybe add more utility support mod bonuses too them .. projected eccm for instance..

i also think the T1 logi has far too much rep range for the ease of SP and cost too get into them


T2 logi with an extra slot just become even tougher to kill in PVP, and now I can put 6 links on an incursion scimitar. yey.
Better cap negates the high skill requirements that currently one of the few things keeping logi in check. It is possible to permarun 4 large reps on a scimitar with 3 mods and the rigs for cap at full skills and a couple mill in your head.
T2 resists are the one thing least likely to change on logistics ships, as they need every little bit of those resists to counter lower base HP and extreme neut susceptibility on scimi/oni or ECM on your partners ship in basi/guardi
More bonuses on these ships will quickly make them even more brokenly powerful as these remove the counters currently in place for logi, such as jamming one out via concerted effort or a dedicated hamming squad.

t1 logi are in a reasonable place for the most part (though I would like the rep amount reduced slightly so shiny medium reps don't out perform large reps, merely make parity)


there base HP is almost as good as HAC's actually .. its usually the lack of slots and the need for cap mods that restrict HP..
the low sig and strong speed makes them tank better than HAC's do.. but same high resists as HAC's are unjustifiable .. they are there too support the fleet rep others .. not too tank better than the ships they are supporting

If the HACs used as much of their total slots for tank as the logi did, the HACs would generally have better tank.
And I agree in the case of the basi/guardi they have almost the same base EHP as the HACs, but they also have almost the same sig as the HACs, and no MWD bonus if they are forced into a situation they need an MWD for. Scimi/oni are much thinner ships than HACs.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#27 - 2014-10-23 23:39:56 UTC
No more active rep mods bonus, can still fit them but nowhere near as good.
Make the Rep drone bonus 100-200% per Level
Make the drones bays bigger (bandwidth stays the same)
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#28 - 2014-10-23 23:43:40 UTC
Tappits wrote:
No more active rep mods bonus, can still fit them but nowhere near as good.
Make the Rep drone bonus 100-200% per Level
Make the drones bays bigger (bandwidth stays the same)

So, absolutely destroy several styles of PVE overnight, making several kinds of content simply unreasonable in a single move?
yey.
Also, this still does nothing about the fact that any ship which can catch reps is nigh invulnerable once the reps catch in PVP.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#29 - 2014-10-23 23:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tappits
James Baboli wrote:

Also, this still does nothing about the fact that any ship which can catch reps is nigh invulnerable once the reps catch in PVP.


There is 100% no counter to drones.


James Baboli wrote:
So, absolutely destroy several styles of PVE overnight, making several kinds of content simply unreasonable in a single move?


Life finds a way.
Some people say the upcoming jump changes are simply unreasonable too. does not stop it form happening.

Trying to put stacking penalty's on the reps will be ok for super small scale stuff but eve is more than 1v1's it needs to scale up to 256man fleets or there's no point.
MJ Incognito
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#30 - 2014-10-24 00:00:11 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets.


i agree .. but the question becomes how too apply the stacking penalty ?

- using current stacking penalty ratios .. after about the 4th rep mod repping becomes pretty weak.. 1 logi per ship is too harsh a nerf

- adding a reduced stacking penalty just for reps perhaps? ... so you might be able too double or triple the amount of mods before hitting the cliff

- or perhaps adding a hard set limit of modules and everything after is useless


The way you penalize reps is to have a 2ndary recharge rate on shields/armor that affects max capacity only. This way, as damage comes in, you can degrade the max capacity limit without degrading the actual incoming shields/armor. This means a ship will die over extended time of applied damage, but will sustain durability which is/was the whole arguement for logistics to be implemented way back when.

Simple calculator that takes something like 7-10% max HP degredation for all incoming damage. So lets say a fleet hits you're 10,000 shield HP ship for 5,000 post mitigated damage. That ship would then have a maximum shield capacity of 9500 before any more damage come's in. The recharge rate for this type of 2ndary recharge would be something in the range of 3-5 minutes... so over the course of a fight, your shields could recharge to maximum capacity if you stop taking damage... but if you're sustaining damage and do not warp out, then you're toast eventually... no matter how many repairs you get.

That's especially important in a Capital vs sub-capital battle where one side is virtually unkillable atm.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#31 - 2014-10-24 00:03:30 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
So, absolutely destroy several styles of PVE overnight, making several kinds of content simply unreasonable in a single move?


Life finds a way.
Some people say the upcoming jump changes are simply unreasonable too. does not stop it form happening.[/quote]
Doesn't mean that it doesn't destroy the play style as it currently exists, for at most a chance at changing the meta in null. Warp speed change and jump changes hit everyone evenly, slowed down isk farming and so on. This hits the PvE side, where fights large enough to require logi as it requires a 5B investment in tank and a 1B hull, along with a t2 battleship to locally tank the content to do it by going local.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#32 - 2014-10-24 00:10:23 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
This hits the PvE side, where fights large enough to require logi as it requires a 5B investment in tank and a 1B hull, along with a t2 battleship to locally tank the content to do it by going local.


I need context because i cannot work out what your trying to say... if logis have to use drones to rep and not remote reps in what PVE context is it going to completely destroy that type of pve?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#33 - 2014-10-24 00:15:18 UTC
Tappits wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
This hits the PvE side, where fights large enough to require logi as it requires a 5B investment in tank and a 1B hull, along with a t2 battleship to locally tank the content to do it by going local.


I need context because i cannot work out what your trying to say... if logis have to use drones to rep and not remote reps in what PVE context is it going to completely destroy that type of pve?

I am talking about incursions, and some ways of running c3 and c4 sites

Incursion rats eat drones. They especially eat logi drones. If you can suddenly lose 20% of the rep on each of your logi as your drones are alpha'd off the field and now you have to rep upwards of 10k incoming DPS, this will end up killing ships fast.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#34 - 2014-10-24 00:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
baltec1 wrote:
Cr Turist wrote:


the guys in Provi would not agree with you that neuts are not effective.


The people in provi haven't had a war with us. Neuts have never worked and not for a lack of trying.


There is a pretty effective way to counter sub capital logi with Praetor EV-900s assuming (which is a fairly big assumption) that the hostiles don't firewall and your line grunts are half able to do things for themselves. There is also another way to use neuts effectively and harder to counter but not gonna hand that one out on a plate.

EDIT: Its definitely not a hard counter though or an I can win button.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-10-24 00:39:21 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:
i agree with ur progression chart however after the patch jump distances will be massively kicked in the balls as we all know.

What people apparently don't all know is that carriers will be able to take gates. Your BC logi is thus already obsolete.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#36 - 2014-10-24 00:44:44 UTC
^^ I can't wait til the fun unfolds when capitals can take gates, I can see a lot more special casing (like hics stopping them jumping gates) coming up to stop issues down the line :D
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#37 - 2014-10-24 00:46:30 UTC
They aren't entirely obsoleted, as they bring more rep power to highsec. This is not, most of the time, a good thing for highsec pvp, with the much lower average gang size.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#38 - 2014-10-24 00:53:36 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
They aren't entirely obsoleted, as they bring more rep power to highsec. This is not, most of the time, a good thing for highsec pvp, with the much lower average gang size.


Small gangs in highsec can unlike larger null engagements effectively use ECM against logi. One highsec war I was in a single falcon put enough pressure on their 5 RR ships to make them breakable with a small gang.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#39 - 2014-10-24 01:05:54 UTC
Rroff wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
They aren't entirely obsoleted, as they bring more rep power to highsec. This is not, most of the time, a good thing for highsec pvp, with the much lower average gang size.


Small gangs in highsec can unlike larger null engagements effectively use ECM against logi. One highsec war I was in a single falcon put enough pressure on their 5 RR ships to make them breakable with a small gang.

Ah, but the OP had something saying they had some major anti-EWAR buff, so I made the assumption that this put ECM back into the "eh, maybe" category.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#40 - 2014-10-24 01:13:51 UTC
Ah wasn't following your train of thought.