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Logistics ships thoughts from a Logistics ships pilot.
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Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#1 - 2014-10-23 20:53:45 UTC
I think a lot of people will agree logistics ships need some attention. Being a avid logi pilot myself I thought I would put down some of my ideas.

1. Force T2 Logistics to use Medium reps .
a.) The current range bonus is fine. (when using medium reps)
b.) Give it a bonus to rep amount.
c.) Add a high slot module that will give project Anit EWAR and loose the offensive and drone bonus’s as nobody uses them.

(Some examples)
Minmatar- anti web
Gallente- anti damp
Caldari- anti ecm
Amarr- anti neut

2. Introduce t2 logistics frigs. Because that would just be amazing.

3. Introduce a battle cruiser sized MJD capable logistics ship.
a.) Massively less mobile than the cruisers.
b.) Logistics module similar to the bastion module. 1min cool down on MJD and increased rep amount and range when engaged with the inability to receive remote reps.
(aww it’s a little triage carrier)
c.) Can use large remote reps

I hope it is not lost to CCP that some people specialize in certain fields. Some guys are nuts about cepters, some just fly ECM ships, some have a strange addiction to interdictors, and some of us love logistics. I know logistics is a touchy subject and I know it needs a REWORKING (not a nerf nuke). Kicking logi in the pants does not have to be painful make it exciting. Give the logi pilots of eve something to be excited about. PLEASE

Love,
Cr Turist.

P.S please give the bassi some love that ship is hurting soooooo bad.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#2 - 2014-10-23 21:00:09 UTC
I can get behind some of this. A t2 BC based on a third CBC hull (stealth request for more combat battlecruisers, teehee) would be an interesting thing. The issue then becomes making sure that these new Heavy Logisitics ships don't become too much more powerful in terms of rep/s relative to the potential incoming DPS for the engagements they would be good for.

The other problem is that this sort of change, once worked out properly, also does things like affect PVE substantially, so it would need some fairly careful working over.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#3 - 2014-10-23 21:20:41 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
I can get behind some of this. A t2 BC based on a third CBC hull (stealth request for more combat battlecruisers, teehee) would be an interesting thing. The issue then becomes making sure that these new Heavy Logisitics ships don't become too much more powerful in terms of rep/s relative to the potential incoming DPS for the engagements they would be good for.

The other problem is that this sort of change, once worked out properly, also does things like affect PVE substantially, so it would need some fairly careful working over.



the key strength to current logistics is mobility. thats why i say kill this ships mobility and force it to use the (logi modual) where it gets no incoming reps. yes the ship should have SOME tank but not getting reps means u choose. do i wanna rep my fleet or save my own skin. could make for some fun fights
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#4 - 2014-10-23 21:25:15 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
I can get behind some of this. A t2 BC based on a third CBC hull (stealth request for more combat battlecruisers, teehee) would be an interesting thing. The issue then becomes making sure that these new Heavy Logisitics ships don't become too much more powerful in terms of rep/s relative to the potential incoming DPS for the engagements they would be good for.

The other problem is that this sort of change, once worked out properly, also does things like affect PVE substantially, so it would need some fairly careful working over.



the key strength to current logistics is mobility. thats why i say kill this ships mobility and force it to use the (logi modual) where it gets no incoming reps. yes the ship should have SOME tank but not getting reps means u choose. do i wanna rep my fleet or save my own skin. could make for some fun fights


The issue is that this then massively favors shield logi over armor logi due to the existence of ASBs and their capless rep ability. It allows you to push out massively more reps than armor for the same amount of local tank and cap dedicated to this. Such a module would strongly hurt the already fairly rough off armor brawling meta, as having your logi primaried one by one off the field and cracking faster than the equivalent shield logi due to the nature of ASBs vs AARs would make for a bad fight.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#5 - 2014-10-23 21:29:41 UTC
oo let me be clear. these ships should not have a local rep bonus. that would be sooo dumb. if he goes in to "logi mode" he is putting himself at risk to save others.

the argument about ASB and AAR can be made about any ship. its like saying its not fair missiles dont use cap but hybrids do.
Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-10-23 21:40:26 UTC
Progression of a logi pilot

Logi frigate --> T1 logi Cruiser --> T2 Logi Cruiser --> Carrier

a T2 logi frigate would be interesting but a logi BC is not needed and we don't really need anything between cruiser and carrier for logi. A small gang of nesters (if you actually manage to run across them) is already tough to crack and they really aren't considered to be a logi ship. Adding a bigger more tankier logi ship is not a good idea, if anything it would be abused in trade hubs for neutral logi.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#7 - 2014-10-23 21:52:15 UTC
Daoden wrote:
Progression of a logi pilot

Logi frigate --> T1 logi Cruiser --> T2 Logi Cruiser --> Carrier

a T2 logi frigate would be interesting but a logi BC is not needed and we don't really need anything between cruiser and carrier for logi. A small gang of nesters (if you actually manage to run across them) is already tough to crack and they really aren't considered to be a logi ship. Adding a bigger more tankier logi ship is not a good idea, if anything it would be abused in trade hubs for neutral logi.


It isn't necessary, but would be an interesting choice. I support both of the concepts, but the proposed implementation is not to my liking in the slightest.

Quote:

oo let me be clear. these ships should not have a local rep bonus. that would be sooo dumb. if he goes in to "logi mode" he is putting himself at risk to save others.

the argument about ASB and AAR can be made about any ship. its like saying its not fair missiles dont use cap but hybrids do.

The point was more that the normally decent fittings on t2 ships, combined with the ability to push resists very high and the existence of XLASBs to put massive burst tank out makes the inability to receive incoming reps much much more problematic on armor ships than on shield ships, as it becomes much easier to cap coast out of a cycle when your reps don't use cap.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#8 - 2014-10-23 21:53:18 UTC
Daoden wrote:
Progression of a logi pilot

Logi frigate --> T1 logi Cruiser --> T2 Logi Cruiser --> Carrier

a T2 logi frigate would be interesting but a logi BC is not needed and we don't really need anything between cruiser and carrier for logi. A small gang of nesters (if you actually manage to run across them) is already tough to crack and they really aren't considered to be a logi ship. Adding a bigger more tankier logi ship is not a good idea, if anything it would be abused in trade hubs for neutral logi.


i agree with ur progression chart however after the patch jump distances will be massively kicked in the balls as we all know. i can tell you what the answer will be to large alliances if they cant bring more triage. BRING MORE LOGI !!!

the important part of the new BC concept is that if the ship is not in ""logi mode" then its reps are crazy weak, but it can get reps. going into logi mode give the ability to GIVE reps and not get them. its the same idea of a triage carrier only this does not get a bonus to local reps. and OFC the reps it does give have to be tuned to not be over powered.

And please dont tell the SM3LL guy about nestor fleets.
Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-10-23 22:00:45 UTC
No offense but ever since Bastion module came out everyone and their mother wants a "something" mode on a new ship or an existing one. If you want a logi ship you don't need a "mode". You just need a logi ship. trying to add in something for the sake of adding something doesn't make the game any better.

The idea of having a BC with crappy reps is indeed possible already, but adding a module that will boost their repping power but make it so they cannot receive any assistance seems like a waste. Sounds more like I sacrifice my ship to save another, and there are other ways to do that, (RIP my kitsune but you saved our carrier)

I would prefer more ships like the scimitar with a bonus to shield reps and tracking links, only instead of tracking links lets add something else to it like maybe a ship with a bonus to remote SEBOs or ECCM.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#10 - 2014-10-23 22:02:43 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:
Daoden wrote:
Progression of a logi pilot

Logi frigate --> T1 logi Cruiser --> T2 Logi Cruiser --> Carrier

a T2 logi frigate would be interesting but a logi BC is not needed and we don't really need anything between cruiser and carrier for logi. A small gang of nesters (if you actually manage to run across them) is already tough to crack and they really aren't considered to be a logi ship. Adding a bigger more tankier logi ship is not a good idea, if anything it would be abused in trade hubs for neutral logi.


i agree with ur progression chart however after the patch jump distances will be massively kicked in the balls as we all know. i can tell you what the answer will be to large alliances if they cant bring more triage. BRING MORE LOGI !!!

the important part of the new BC concept is that if the ship is not in ""logi mode" then its reps are crazy weak, but it can get reps. going into logi mode give the ability to GIVE reps and not get them. its the same idea of a triage carrier only this does not get a bonus to local reps. and OFC the reps it does give have to be tuned to not be over powered.

And please dont tell the SM3LL guy about nestor fleets.

So, outside this "logi mode" how much do they rep, and do they have an inherent range bonus, or is it dependent on this mini-triage, or is it split between the two? Do they have 3 reps and this logi module to keep them underpowered outside it, or do they have the space for more?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2014-10-23 22:05:40 UTC
What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets.
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#12 - 2014-10-23 22:09:25 UTC
outside of logi mode the reps and range should come at face value of that modual. having 4 reps with the modual so 5 highslots would be to me a natural go to. the key to the ship is the modual. its a effective logistics ship because of the modual. the other bonus it gets would be something that would require some more brainstorming.
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#13 - 2014-10-23 22:12:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Cr Turist
baltec1 wrote:
What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets.


i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi

how ever i must say having a optimal range on logi would be kinda cool. the farther away you are the less effective your reps

and i think thats funny as hell coming from a goon.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#14 - 2014-10-23 22:14:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets.

If there was a way to do that without nerfing high end PvE into the ground, I would agree with you right now. As it is, I think something more like missile explosion size vs sig radius would be more appropriate and easier to balance with the current PvE, and also encourage more tactical game play as far as pulsing props to enhance sig radius, etc.

Quote:

outside of logi mode the reps and range should come at face value of that modual. having 4 reps with the modual so 5 highslots would be to me a natural go to. the key to the ship is the modual. its a effective logistics ship because of the modual. the other bonus it gets would be something that would require some more brainstorming.

So, outside of this fairly niche role, you can get substantially more out of a standard logi cruiser with A type reps if your entire proposal is followed. The implementation, if not the concept, is not done baking and should probably be pushed back a step until you have the relation of these two very similar ship types balanced against each other.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-10-23 22:18:12 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets.


i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi

how ever i must say having a optimal range on logi would be kinda cool. the farther away you are the less effective your reps

and i think thats funny as hell coming from a goon.


Guardian setup I fly for PvP logi has ECCM, guess how many falcons itll take to jam 1 logi with that setup 100% of the time. no multiply by the number of logi on grid, subtract DPS for each falcon you have to field, and now watch your fleet get torn to pieces.

You clearly have not gone up against a large fleet, and by large I don't just me 10-20 players.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2014-10-23 22:19:33 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets.


i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi


ECM doesnt work hence why it was retired from everyones fleets several years ago. Neuts are also no good in large fleet fights. Damps work but only if you dedicate an entire secondary fleet to it which means only the big powerblocks can use it and it is useless on a carrier force supported by supers.

Logi is simply too powerful and is going to have to be delt with.
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#17 - 2014-10-23 22:22:06 UTC
Daoden wrote:
Cr Turist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets.


i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi

how ever i must say having a optimal range on logi would be kinda cool. the farther away you are the less effective your reps

and i think thats funny as hell coming from a goon.


Guardian setup I fly for PvP logi has ECCM, guess how many falcons itll take to jam 1 logi with that setup 100% of the time. no multiply by the number of logi on grid, subtract DPS for each falcon you have to field, and now watch your fleet get torn to pieces.

You clearly have not gone up against a large fleet, and by large I don't just me 10-20 players.



Wow your right. i have never been in a big fight u caught me.
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#18 - 2014-10-23 22:22:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cr Turist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets.


i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi


ECM doesnt work hence why it was retired from everyones fleets several years ago. Neuts are also no good in large fleet fights. Damps work but only if you dedicate an entire secondary fleet to it which means only the big powerblocks can use it and it is useless on a carrier force supported by supers.

Logi is simply too powerful and is going to have to be delt with.



the guys in Provi would not agree with you that neuts are not effective.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#19 - 2014-10-23 22:23:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets.


i agree .. but the question becomes how too apply the stacking penalty ?

- using current stacking penalty ratios .. after about the 4th rep mod repping becomes pretty weak.. 1 logi per ship is too harsh a nerf

- adding a reduced stacking penalty just for reps perhaps? ... so you might be able too double or triple the amount of mods before hitting the cliff

- or perhaps adding a hard set limit of modules and everything after is useless

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-10-23 22:23:41 UTC
I vote they increase the lockbreaker bombs jam strength to make it useable
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