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Moar battleships.
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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#1 - 2014-10-23 21:40:03 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
I think it is high time that we got a new set of battleships.

These ships are intended to be created and balanced against the comprehensive rebalance here

The Minmatar and Gallante could use a disruption battleship comparable to the Scorpion and Geddon.
A minmatar battleship with long webs or TPs and missiles would be a really cool ship as it emphasizes the EWAR needed to actually make battleship missiles useful in PVP while carrying its own missiles.
Similarly, a Gallante battleship with a sensor dampener bonus would be a really interesting and powerful ship, able to dictate engagement range against the average gang.

The amarr need a real Attack battleship, as the geddon, with its neuts, is much more of a disruption battleship than an attack battleship. I propose that this be named the Reckoning or the Judgement. It would also be nice to have a single Amarr battleship with 5 mids.

Caldari seriously need a combat battleship which focuses on missiles and tank, as the rokh, raven and scorpion are so different from one another as to seem to come from different worlds (or mega-corps.....). I propose this ship be called the Cockatrice.

Basic number crunching to follow later.
Judgement:

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% to Large Energy Turret damage
+5% to Large Energy turret optimal Range

Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 19000 PWG, 560 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6250 / 6500 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 7200 / 1100s / 6.54
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 124 / .14 / 97100000 / 16.02s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 83km / 90 / 6
Sensor strength: 20 Radar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 420

The fittings just permit either a shield setup with maxed damage or a single plate armor buffer setup which is almost cap stable, both times with t2 MWD and tachs fitting (provided you have perfect fitting skills and use tank rigs) while managing to still make some fitting choices hard.
Cockatrice:

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% to Missile velocity
+ 5% per level to cruise missile, torpedo and RHML damage

Slot layout: 8H, 6M, 5L (-1); 4 turrets , 8 launchers
Fittings: 15000 PWG, 800 (-20) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8750 / 6750 / 7500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500 / 1087s / 5.06
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 93 / .152 / 105300000 / 19.85s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km / 90 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 475

This setup allows some very interesting, primarily resist based tanking and just barely has the PG and lows to run an armor tank. It also has issues with cap, but has very few issues with application to applicable targets and the CPU and slots to run a credible shield tank even when compared to a beast like the SNI. -1 low and 20 CPU from original proposal


Dervish

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
6% per level to target painter effectiveness
10% per level to Statis webifier range

Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 6L ; 5 turrets , 6 launchers
Fittings: 14500 PWG, 730 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000 / 6750 / 7250
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500 / 980s / 5.06
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 99 / .136 / 95300000 / 14.34s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km / 98 / 6
Sensor strength: 22 Ladar
Signature radius: 475

As a strong counterpoint to the idea of the scorpion for an EWAR battleship which is entirely unsuited to solo play and PvE, this would be a fairly tough and powerful missile ship, with a fairly easy armor tank and heavy EWAR setup, or using the large number of mids to mount an average shield tank and moderate EWAR, while dealing fairly high damage from the ability to run 4 damage mods, a suitcase and a nano. All in all, a ship I would want were I to design a battleship for solo pounces, with the ability to run non-PvP content.

Coeus

Gallente Battleship bonus:
5% per level to remote sensor dampener effectiveness
10% per level to Remote sensor dampener optimal range
5% per level to projected ECCM

Slot layout: 6H, 6M, 6L ; 6 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 14500 PWG, 755 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 7250 / 6250
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500 / 980s / 5.06
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 99 / .136 / 95300000 / 14.34s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 225
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km / 98 / 6
Sensor strength: 21 magnometric
Signature radius: 475

A strong counter to Ewar, intended to buddy up and reduce the effectiveness of either a swarm of smaller ships, or to allow a pair to completely cripple the sensors of a single like-sized ship, the projected ECCM bonus thematically fits with the gallente's desperate need for a better counter to the straight ECM of a well put together caldari fleet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Making battleships worth the warp
Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-10-23 21:46:14 UTC
I don't think we need more ewar battleships. The geddon unlike its smaller counterparts can make use of the large nuets and vamps where the cruiser sized vessels cannot use the large versions without significant loss to another area.

The Scorpion is the only ship with a bonus to ECM Bursts, which requires being right on top of your enemies to use, which thus requires a lot more tank to last long enough to use it.

Sensor damps, webs, target painters, and disruptors can be used very effectively with cruiser hull made for them and there is no reason why a battleship sized hull would be required like for the nuets/vamps and ECM. If they added a module that did have higher fitting requirements or something that would require short range on your enemies then maybe.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#3 - 2014-10-23 21:50:16 UTC
Daoden wrote:
I don't think we need more ewar battleships. The geddon unlike its smaller counterparts can make use of the large nuets and vamps where the cruiser sized vessels cannot use the large versions without significant loss to another area.

The Scorpion is the only ship with a bonus to ECM Bursts, which requires being right on top of your enemies to use, which thus requires a lot more tank to last long enough to use it.

Sensor damps, webs, target painters, and disruptors can be used very effectively with cruiser hull made for them and there is no reason why a battleship sized hull would be required like for the nuets/vamps and ECM. If they added a module that did have higher fitting requirements or something that would require short range on your enemies then maybe.


Those two are there more to round out my current idea than because I see a need for them, and I would also be more than willing to support a 2nd minmatar combat battleship rather than an EWAR battleship for them.

The two I really care about out of this batch (though am least likely to fly) are the Amarr Attack battleship, especially if it had 5 mids so as to have the slightest possibility of shield tanking it with a prop mod, and the Caldari Combat battleship with missiles.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#4 - 2014-10-23 22:40:20 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
...The two I really care about out of this batch (though am least likely to fly) are the Amarr Attack battleship, especially if it had 5 mids so as to have the slightest possibility of shield tanking it with a prop mod, and the Caldari Combat battleship with missiles.


So like a weaker Navy Scorpion and an Apocalypse with stronger armor tank at the expanse of mobility that is not an Abbadon with 5 medium slots?

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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#5 - 2014-10-23 22:50:34 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
...The two I really care about out of this batch (though am least likely to fly) are the Amarr Attack battleship, especially if it had 5 mids so as to have the slightest possibility of shield tanking it with a prop mod, and the Caldari Combat battleship with missiles.


So like a weaker Navy Scorpion and an Apocalypse with stronger armor tank at the expanse of mobility that is not an Abbadon with 5 medium slots?

A weaker navy scorpion, though maybe with a moderate velocity bonus and explosion radius or explosion velocity bonus in place of the tank bonus.
The apoc really seems to fill the niche of combat battleship to me, with it being the higher damage ship in the lineup, while retaining a fairly deep reserve of EHP and relatively low speed. I would like to see something with 6 or 7 guns in 7 highs and a slightly larger damage bonus than on the current laser hulls, while running 6-7 lows and 5 mids, with right around 6.5k base armor, and 6.2k base shield, and a base velocity of 126m/s and an agility to mass ratio that puts align at 17s before skills.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-10-23 22:58:55 UTC
Daoden wrote:
I don't think we need more ewar battleships. The geddon unlike its smaller counterparts can make use of the large nuets and vamps where the cruiser sized vessels cannot use the large versions without significant loss to another area.

The Scorpion is the only ship with a bonus to ECM Bursts, which requires being right on top of your enemies to use, which thus requires a lot more tank to last long enough to use it.

Sensor damps, webs, target painters, and disruptors can be used very effectively with cruiser hull made for them and there is no reason why a battleship sized hull would be required like for the nuets/vamps and ECM. If they added a module that did have higher fitting requirements or something that would require short range on your enemies then maybe.



That and while the grass may look greener....the benefits of the scorpion isn't all that. CCP gimps it a little from the other caldari BS'. Many have tried to make even pve scorpions and failed for even basic belt ratting (and that's just kill 3 bs and its couple frig/cruiser escorts). The base for a good pve ride just not there except maybe on widow for covert cyno hops to blink out if system gets too hot if so inclined.....but that gets fatigue tacked on soon.

And when seen say hello to instant primary. Now in the old days the latter wasn't so bad. But in these days scorps were a like 70-80 mil base hull price. Cheap thrill rides really.

The ecm burst while a nice bonus is one often not used. Its best used in a "suicidal" mindset imo. Best use of them is to have the pilot say screw it, warp right into the enemy cluster and burst. Then gtfo (if they can) and do it again (until the run that kills them happens). In this way ccp has some balance. Scorpions best feature requires it to jump right into the lion's den as it were often unsupported.

I'd see this same tradeoff to others. Sure we'll give you damps....but that gallente BS will have to be right on top of them to apply it.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2014-10-23 23:21:50 UTC
strange how two races have attack BBs and two have some form of support BBs it's almost like all races are not meant to be the same...

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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#8 - 2014-10-23 23:24:41 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
strange how two races have attack BBs and two have some form of support BBs it's almost like all races are not meant to be the same...

And this continues to be somewhat the case under said proposal, especially with edge cases like the Apoc being more of a combat battleship than some combat battleships, and the typhoon being more of an attack battleship than the Apoc, and so on. Once again, more thorough number crunching coming soon™.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#9 - 2014-10-24 01:19:56 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Daoden wrote:
I don't think we need more ewar battleships. The geddon unlike its smaller counterparts can make use of the large nuets and vamps where the cruiser sized vessels cannot use the large versions without significant loss to another area.

The Scorpion is the only ship with a bonus to ECM Bursts, which requires being right on top of your enemies to use, which thus requires a lot more tank to last long enough to use it.

Sensor damps, webs, target painters, and disruptors can be used very effectively with cruiser hull made for them and there is no reason why a battleship sized hull would be required like for the nuets/vamps and ECM. If they added a module that did have higher fitting requirements or something that would require short range on your enemies then maybe.



That and while the grass may look greener....the benefits of the scorpion isn't all that. CCP gimps it a little from the other caldari BS'. Many have tried to make even pve scorpions and failed for even basic belt ratting (and that's just kill 3 bs and its couple frig/cruiser escorts). The base for a good pve ride just not there except maybe on widow for covert cyno hops to blink out if system gets too hot if so inclined.....but that gets fatigue tacked on soon.

And when seen say hello to instant primary. Now in the old days the latter wasn't so bad. But in these days scorps were a like 70-80 mil base hull price. Cheap thrill rides really.

The ecm burst while a nice bonus is one often not used. Its best used in a "suicidal" mindset imo. Best use of them is to have the pilot say screw it, warp right into the enemy cluster and burst. Then gtfo (if they can) and do it again (until the run that kills them happens). In this way ccp has some balance. Scorpions best feature requires it to jump right into the lion's den as it were often unsupported.

I'd see this same tradeoff to others. Sure we'll give you damps....but that gallente BS will have to be right on top of them to apply it.


Sad makes me feel bad in a way because not too long before I installed my EVE client the first time, the Scorpion used to be the hybrid turret boat.
(The Rokh was added later with the other tier 3 battleships)

The Scorpion also happens to be my "first". She died horribly in a "Duo of Death" in February 2007..

While I like the Blackbird - and yes I always loved that hull- the Scorpion as a "bigger Blackbird" doesn't feel like a battleship to me.
When the battleship rebalance came, I asked for another turret slot or launcher slot, everyone asked for low to put a plate into.

She still doesn't "feel" right.

Ah the Widow..

Being a "bigger Falcon or Rook with a cloak and a jumpdrive/portal" looked nice in the proposal but the "not quite a battlecruiser" size of hp did raise some questions.
Several nerfs to ECM made her even weaker as she was when she hit TQ. I also get that noone likes to get jammed but nowadays no Gecko or sentry drone cares about that. But let's not talk Blackops for now.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#10 - 2014-10-24 02:46:57 UTC
The first two ship stats are posted now. In general, they should be fairly close to the current power curve, but slightly above it, as I am also pushing a buff to BS performance on grid.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Bullet Therapist
FT Cold Corporation
#11 - 2014-10-24 05:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
I'd like to see baseline battleships made more useful before new ships are made. Maybe make bastion module usable by any BS hull, and while they're at it re-do the marauders into extentions of the assault frigate/HAC line. I'd love to see a khanid battleship. Big smile
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#12 - 2014-10-24 06:52:54 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
I'd like to see baseline battleships made more useful before new ships are made. Maybe make bastion module usable by any BS hull, and while they're at it re-do the marauders into extentions of the assault frigate/HAC line. I'd love to see a khanid battleship. Big smile

I have another thread going up for that soon, but it is based around more native buffer and better and application for these ships.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#13 - 2014-10-24 07:03:58 UTC
the cockatrice has 20 slots, and more dps and tank than god...

fly caldari much?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

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Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-10-24 07:04:33 UTC
a) you are wrong in so many points
b) no.

-1

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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#15 - 2014-10-24 16:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
Daichi Yamato wrote:
the cockatrice has 20 slots, and more dps and tank than god...

fly caldari much?


I keep hearing that battleships aren't worth it in PVP. In general, those numbers were pulled from a rokh and mildly tweaked, and while it has the slots, it doesn't have the CPU to fill all those slots base, with a lower CPU to slot ratio than almost any other caldari ship, while using launchers which are CPU heavier than turrets for both the launchers and the BCS, and also the tank.

That said, I'm probably going to tweak it slightly as feedback comes in.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-10-24 16:51:14 UTC
First ccp need to focus on the current battleships taht are crap

Tempest ( has no reason to be, typhoon maelstrom, geddon all took its former roles and do it better than the tempest)

Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage

Abaddon : lost its reason to be when its resists were nerfed. It has less EHP than the cheapest of the navy battleships, so its old role is no more. CCP could nerf a bit some other aspects and push its resistances back to 5% per level as an exception to the rule.


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#17 - 2014-10-24 16:53:12 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
First ccp need to focus on the current battleships taht are crap

Tempest ( has no reason to be, typhoon maelstrom, geddon all took its former roles and do it better than the tempest)

Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage

Abaddon : lost its reason to be when its resists were nerfed. It has less EHP than the cheapest of the navy battleships, so its old role is no more. CCP could nerf a bit some other aspects and push its resistances back to 5% per level as an exception to the rule.




I mostly agree with this, and would strongly support almost any proposal to buff the subpar battleships, and maybe bring the current battleships and CBCs up 5-15% in effectiveness overall.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#18 - 2014-10-24 17:02:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage



It's not only about the strength of the ECM, it's also about the range you can jam from, which the scorpion is far superior for.

Perfect skills before modules
Falcon - 43+48 optimal/falloff
Scorpion - 97+108 optimal/falloff

EDIT: This means at 91 km, the falcon has an effective jam strength of 5.625 vs the scorpions 7.875

Cloaks and ECM strength is great, but once you get on grid, if you cannot stay on grid because you get primaried, you are not doing your fleet a whole lot of good.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-10-24 17:20:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage



It's not only about the strength of the ECM, it's also about the range you can jam from, which the scorpion is far superior for.

Perfect skills before modules
Falcon - 43+48 optimal/falloff
Scorpion - 97+108 optimal/falloff

EDIT: This means at 91 km, the falcon has an effective jam strength of 5.625 vs the scorpions 7.875

Cloaks and ECM strength is great, but once you get on grid, if you cannot stay on grid because you get primaried, you are not doing your fleet a whole lot of good.



Completely irrelevant (well almsot irrelevant) on modern eve battlefield. You are NOT safe from lots of firepower and sicne youa re not mobile a falcon has more chance to keep 50 km range than the scorpion.

When was the last time you saw scorpiuons beign used by the side that did not lose?


THey are horrible right now. Just get a single mega in your fleet with a EcCm and a MJD and get on top of the scorpion and obliterate it. IT will nto escape and the scorpion fleet lost a ship for NOTHING.. in SECONDS.

Mobility and cloack are FAR FAR more powerful than 50 km more optimal.... So the falcon woudl still be better if both had SAME ecm strneght.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#20 - 2014-10-24 17:58:53 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage



It's not only about the strength of the ECM, it's also about the range you can jam from, which the scorpion is far superior for.

Perfect skills before modules
Falcon - 43+48 optimal/falloff
Scorpion - 97+108 optimal/falloff

EDIT: This means at 91 km, the falcon has an effective jam strength of 5.625 vs the scorpions 7.875

Cloaks and ECM strength is great, but once you get on grid, if you cannot stay on grid because you get primaried, you are not doing your fleet a whole lot of good.



Completely irrelevant (well almsot irrelevant) on modern eve battlefield. You are NOT safe from lots of firepower and sicne youa re not mobile a falcon has more chance to keep 50 km range than the scorpion.

When was the last time you saw scorpiuons beign used by the side that did not lose?


THey are horrible right now. Just get a single mega in your fleet with a EcCm and a MJD and get on top of the scorpion and obliterate it. IT will nto escape and the scorpion fleet lost a ship for NOTHING.. in SECONDS.

Mobility and cloack are FAR FAR more powerful than 50 km more optimal.... So the falcon woudl still be better if both had SAME ecm strneght.


But in the case of boasting something resembling a tank or being a one shot wonder, the scorpion is great. dropping one with an ECM burst into the heart of a fleet which is trying to evac is great for breaking large sections of the tackle, they can hold down more t1 targets easily, etc.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
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