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[PROPOSAL] What happens in lowsec stays in lowsec – Lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP

Author
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#61 - 2011-12-09 20:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Quote:
You replied to a post that showed how ffs. Loot, market, industrial corps and traders, friends.

The first two have no guarantee they will have what you need. Industrial corps will happily provide you with ships... in highsec next door to low (admitedly, last time I tried this, black frog didn't exist). Friends is just someone else's alts. Try it sometime, you'll see how it goes.



Quote:
This seems like a strange justification. If they are running back to highsec because thier sec status is low, but would stay if thier sec status was not in danger, then I can only surmise that you think they are going back to highsec to gain sec. No doubt some people will, but only because they do not know it is faster to grind in lowsec. It seems more probable that they are going back to highsec because they think they can make more ISK there. If this is correct, then they will not stay in lowsec any longer than they already do.

Maybe it's faster, but I'm not so sure. Finding BS rats is very hit or miss, not like 0.0. And obviously, isk does come into the equation: you can try ratting in up in lowsec, take 10 hours and make 100 mil. Or do it semi afk in highsec, take 20 hours but make 600 mil.

If they go back to highsec when they run out of isk, that's fine by me. It's no different than a -10 logging off his main and grinding missions on an alt for a bit. It's being "sent" back to highsec for being successful that's silly.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#62 - 2011-12-09 20:58:39 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
On the whole, I think this is a good idea. However, it does feel like a bit of a slap in the face for those who are currently -10 as a result of actions that would be effectively decriminalised under the new system.


Hardly. Their -10 is a lifestyle choice...Blink

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."

Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2011-12-09 21:18:33 UTC
As a side note: Sentries not having tracking is rather unfair to frig/cruiser pilots...

and nullsec PvP is problematic at best for casual types (getting bubbled and podded repeatedly, and/or getting crap dropped on your head by ex-sovholders who seem to have a penchant for fleeing to NPC null, never mind the kind of hornets you can stir up in other folks' sovspace).
Dro Nee
#64 - 2011-12-09 21:45:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dro Nee
Jack Dant wrote:
That's a different point, but the way sec and aggression works is unbalanced. It only works in 1v1. With two gangs shooting each other, only 2 primaries will be taking fire at any given time. So anyone who is not primaried will get the full sec hit.


Unless the primary in your gang is flashy the entire opposing gang is able to be aggressed without penalty. Since the people who bounce between high and low are by definition those who are not -5 this is not an issue in small gang fights so much. If you want to aggress haulers, mission runners, people who want to run away, etc obviously everyone gets the sec hit. I am not sure this is bad. Maybe I just do not fit in with current EVE culture, but to me it seems like a good thing to penalize a shoot everything that moves policy within empire. Especially since there are several other areas of the game where that penalty does not exist, nor is it a particularly onerous penalty with a little forethought.

In regards to the statistics I mentioned, I do not know for sure about how many are camps. I tracked average kills/ day for about two month using DOTLAN info. I kept both a log of random systems and standard hot systems (HED, Amamake, etc). Obviously the FW areas saw an increase over non-FW, but the randomized system list showed that low sec was pretty competative. The bottom rung low sec systems still saw more jumps per week than 0.0. Again these were averaged numbers so that single large fleet engagements would scew the picture less. The general picture you get from CCP devblog fits with what I gathered on my own.


P.S- speaking from experience ratting sec up in low sec is way faster than doing the L4 mission tour if you spend 10min setting things up right in a series of connected systems.
Zircon Dasher
#65 - 2011-12-09 23:53:35 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Friends is just someone else's alts.


Well since friends cant count because it is someone elses alt:

then Black Frog can't count because they use alts. And buying anything from highsec hubs cant count because the traders are alts that got goods from other alts. And those goods were made by mission runners/mining alts and industrial alts.

OH NOES!!! I GET IT NAO!!!

Everyone who is not you is an alt.



OR maybe you should get out more.


Quote:
Try it sometime, you'll see how it goes.


Actually I have been profiting off it for about 2 years now. Thanks Smile

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#66 - 2011-12-10 00:30:38 UTC
Dro Nee wrote:
Unless the primary in your gang is flashy the entire opposing gang is able to be aggressed without penalty. Since the people who bounce between high and low are by definition those who are not -5 this is not an issue in small gang fights so much.

You are right. One of the gangs is going to always take the full hit, and the other won't get any. But that's still a whole gang who will get the full sec hit for consensual PVP.

GCC in gangs used to be annoying when we ran destroyer gangs as outlaws. If non-flashies caught one of us at a gate, the rest of the gang couldn't do anything to help without being torn apart by sentries.

Quote:
In regards to the statistics I mentioned, I do not know for sure about how many are camps. I tracked average kills/ day for about two month using DOTLAN info. I kept both a log of random systems and standard hot systems (HED, Amamake, etc). Obviously the FW areas saw an increase over non-FW, but the randomized system list showed that low sec was pretty competative.

I guess your numbers won't lie. But I know I just crossed two regions in an unscouted BC, and couldn't even find a gang to kill me. That can't be right Sad

Quote:
P.S- speaking from experience ratting sec up in low sec is way faster than doing the L4 mission tour if you spend 10min setting things up right in a series of connected systems.

I'll trust your experience, then. Mine was in 0.0, so much faster.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#67 - 2011-12-10 00:31:51 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Quote:
Try it sometime, you'll see how it goes.


Actually I have been profiting off it for about 2 years now. Thanks Smile

Ah, I get it. The proposal would affect your bottom line. I can understand that.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

tengen san
Triton-TC
#68 - 2011-12-11 01:33:10 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Many “fix lowsec” proposals revolve around how to encourage more carebears into lowsec. I believe that's a mistake. The strong point of lowsec is the small gang, casual, PVP. And we need more PVPers to realize its potential.

Lowsec has many good points to attract the more casual PVPer: it's very accessible. The combination of no bubbles and sentry guns discouraging small ships on gates make it easy to move around lowsec. With so many stations, it's easy to take a break pretty much anywhere.

However, if you PVP for any amount of time in lowsec, you'll get cut out of highsec. For the dedicated outlaw, that's not a problem: alts and corp-level logistics make it a non-issue. But it closes most of lowsec from the more casual, single account player. The one who would enjoy lowsec the most.

So I suggest, “what happens in lowsec stays in lowsec”:

  • Lowsec ship and structure kills can't bring your sec status below -2 (the point where travel restrictions kick in).
  • To compensate, make anyone with negative sec status a valid target while in lowsec, with no GCC or sentry repercussions.
  • Sec losses from highsec ganks remain untouched and so trigger travel restrictions.
  • Optionally, allow pod kills in lowsec to lower your sec past -2. This lets people who want to be -10 for whatever reason become so.
  • Optionally, rework killrights to either remove them, or make them only usable in lowsec.

People can now become part of a “lowsec fight club” where they can shoot each other freely, without losing their highsec access.

For the current lowsec residents, pirate and anti-pirate alike, this would bring more fun targets from highsec, in the form of “weekend pirates” and highsec alliances trying to control lowsec systems and resources. Both of those have given me many enjoyable fights, but both are unsustainable in the face of sec losses.

I'm not sure I can think of a negative side to the change.



I just have read the OP, so I can’t comment to the other opinions uttered here atm, but I can say already I surly support it. It could be even more extended to revitalize low sec or bring low sec to its intended means.
Roland Deschaines
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#69 - 2011-12-12 12:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Roland Deschaines
This is great, have my bump.

EDIT: read through the thread, here are a couple points I think need to be answered (quotes are paraphrased but accurate)

Quote:
There's enough PvP in low-sec

Who cares? This isn't about changing where PvP happens. This is about making low-sec not ****. If consequentially more people PvP in low-sec, so be it.

Quote:
No one will come to low-sec as a result of this, I'm flashy and people still don't shoot me

False. Club Bear is a good counterexample. Plus, you're basing your experience on what you see in low-sec, which is a bit myopic seeing as the people this would apply to AVOID low-sec in its current state due to being limited to flashies.

Quote:
Low-sec is easy, just do x

Where x is some form of grinding. Alts, hauling, scouring the stocks of the low-sec market, ratting sec from time to time. It's all some form of grinding. We're aware that it's possible to do that, we just don't like it, hence the OP. Just stating what the game is like ATM and going "deal with it" isn't constructive.

Quote:
Casual baby FPS, consequence free PvP

Quote:
Eve's philosophy

The crux of the issue.
You're misconstruing Eve's harshness into a stone-wall "Want to make Eve quote unquote easier, more accessible? Baby, go play Hello kitty online / wow / cowadooty".
OP wants to change the way in which low-sec is harsh, not remove the harshness. Instead of stupid mechanics and grinding, lack of sentries and player-caused danger. If you think this is against Eve's philosophy, then you think Eve is about grinding, and you're the one who should be playing Wow. Not arena though, just leveling blacksmithing all day.

BTW, even for all the die-hard grindfest fans, at least acknowledge the stupidity of sec status making low-sec further removed from high-sec than 0.0 is.

Oh and Jack, don't think I don't know whom you're talking about when you say "people complaining about not having ship fittings even when we had corp hulls".
Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#70 - 2011-12-12 16:38:21 UTC
Roland Deschaines wrote:
This is great, have my bump.

EDIT: read through the thread, here are a couple points I think need to be answered (quotes are paraphrased but accurate)

Quote:
There's enough PvP in low-sec

Who cares? This isn't about changing where PvP happens. This is about making low-sec not ****. If consequentially more people PvP in low-sec, so be it.

Quote:
No one will come to low-sec as a result of this, I'm flashy and people still don't shoot me

False. Club Bear is a good counterexample. Plus, you're basing your experience on what you see in low-sec, which is a bit myopic seeing as the people this would apply to AVOID low-sec in its current state due to being limited to flashies.

Quote:
Low-sec is easy, just do x

Where x is some form of grinding. Alts, hauling, scouring the stocks of the low-sec market, ratting sec from time to time. It's all some form of grinding. We're aware that it's possible to do that, we just don't like it, hence the OP. Just stating what the game is like ATM and going "deal with it" isn't constructive.

Quote:
Casual baby FPS, consequence free PvP/Eve's philosophy

The crux of the issue.
You're misconstruing Eve's harshness into a stone-wall "Want to make Eve quote unquote easier, more accessible? Baby, go play Hello kitty online / wow / cowadooty".
OP wants to change the way in which low-sec is harsh, not remove the harshness. Instead of stupid mechanics and grinding, lack of sentries and player-caused danger. If you think this is against Eve's philosophy, then you think Eve is about grinding, and you're the one who should be playing Wow. Not arena though, just leveling blacksmithing all day.

BTW, even for all the die-hard grindfest fans, at least acknowledge the stupidity of sec status making low-sec further removed from high-sec than 0.0 is...


Agreed.

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams

Crefakis
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#71 - 2011-12-12 17:41:37 UTC
Lowsec also pretty much alienates frigates, assault frigates, destroyers, interdictors and t1 cruisers from effectively engaging on gates.

This added to the fact that newbies often want to go play in a rifter compounds EVE's elitist playstyle. Essentially, solo lowsec pvp under BC hulls is INCREDIBLY hard to find, unless you want to be roundly spanked by Alex Medvedov in a 2/10 plex, get jumped by six drams in Amamake I belt I or be ganked by an instalock lachesis tackle for a battlecruiser gang.

When I was a 2m sp nubbing back in 2008 or whenever it was I would have LOVED to jump in a rifter and tour lowsec trying my hand at nabbing a cruiser or destroyer at a gate, or even grabbing an industrial. It would have pushed me into true piracy a lot quicker.

This suggestion is still one of the best Ive seen for a while, even if it was a corpmate who suggested it.

/me tips his hat to Mr. Dant
Maz3r Rakum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2011-12-12 22:48:58 UTC
We can call it BROSEC.

I think a boost to low sec belt rats to nearing null sec rats could encourage more players to low sec rat, and force pvp encounters away from gates/stations.

Supported.
Mimiru Minahiro
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2011-12-13 23:07:09 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
If non-flashies caught one of us at a gate, the rest of the gang couldn't do anything to help without being torn apart by sentries



Roland Deschaines wrote:
seeing as the people this would apply to AVOID low-sec in its current state due to being limited to flashies.

Quote:
Low-sec is easy, just do x

Where x is some form of grinding. Alts, hauling, scouring the stocks of the low-sec market, ratting sec from time to time. It's all some form of grinding.


These two quotes are important.

People do not like being limited to shooting flashies in lowsec.
Being non-flashies confers an advantage in fights.
Alts (SP grinding), Not having trade hubs within a jump or two (movement grinding), Hauling (alt + movement grind), and ratting (sec grind) are stupid. PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO GRIND! They want to undock, pewpew for an hour and log the f*** off.

Since being non-flashy gives you an advantage, people will do what they have to do in order to keep that advantage. This means gridning....which blows donkey nuts. That means that people who hate being limited to shooting flashies will be just as irritated because they still can't shoot non-flashies.

The logical solution to end grinding and make lowsec not ****?

Get rid of all sentries and security loss in lowsec.

This is not rocket science.


TOOO TEH TOPZ!
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#74 - 2011-12-14 09:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Dant
Mimiru Minahiro wrote:
Get rid of all sentries and security loss in lowsec.

No. Sentries are part of what keeps lowsec sane. If you want to camp a lowsec gate, you need either a gang that can tank sentries among them, or a dedicated ship that's likely to die if someone actually fights back. Either way, you are a target for other people around you.

If you remove sentries, it will be interceptors or bombers with falcon support as far as the eye can see. I want to encourage lowsec PVP, not make it more lame.

You could adjust flagging mechanics to reduce sentry effects on gang PVP. For example, if you shoot a flashy, you could get a "global anti-criminal flag" and lose sentry protection for 15 minutes: "You have taken the law into your own hands, the police can't help you now".

But that would be a different topic.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Miss Jolly
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2011-12-15 07:40:26 UTC
Possibly one of the best suggestions I have heard when it comes to getting more warm bodies out to lowsec and lowering the stigma for the casual pvp-er to kill others in lowsec.

+1
Phlyk
The VonBraun Institute
#76 - 2011-12-15 08:02:24 UTC
This actually sounds like a very good idea. I like the idea of being able to shoot someone with -0.01 sec status without consequence!

the only comment I would make is that a -2.0 sec status after killing a lot of ships is fairly easy to rat up. Perhaps you should have a 'real' sec status that keeps dropping as you get into fights, but an 'effective' sec status that won't go below -1.99.

Either way, +1
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2011-12-15 12:27:06 UTC
An excellent idea, I'd like to see this implemented.

Reducing GCC to 5 minutes instead of 15 would also be a big help, as most people just cloak or dock up and have to stop playing for 15 minutes, which is another factor reducing the fun.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Berendas
EVE University
Ivy League
#78 - 2011-12-19 05:16:58 UTC
bump
Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#79 - 2011-12-20 16:59:33 UTC
Doo eet!

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams

Nefal Tiris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#80 - 2011-12-21 15:26:11 UTC
Approves of this !