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The Prospect
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Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
the holtzman experience
CAStabouts
#1 - 2014-10-22 17:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
I'm drunk, so I am actually ~~enthemmt~~ enough to post this Twisted DEAL WITH IT

So,
The Prospect would really like to see
A (small) drone bay (to deal with belt rats(and salvage the wrecks)),
and
a range bonus to Gas Harvesters (so We can Insta-Cloak Up even while ninja Gassing)

That is all.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#2 - 2014-10-22 17:55:26 UTC
Drone bay perhaps. Though I've never needed to use the drone bay on the venture other than perhaps for lols.

I disagree on the range boost to harvesters though. In a ship as small, quick and agile as the prospetor (it is pretty trivial to get the prospector to sub 3 sec align/warp time) if you miss the probes scanning you or your location and can't get off the cloud and cloaked in time then congratulate the hunters on a kill well caught. Otherwise there's very little reason you should not be able to burn off of the cloud and cloak/warp long before something lands and locks you.

All in all, a no from me as there's very little need or utility with this proposal.

I'm right behind you
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-10-22 18:32:14 UTC
I'm going to say no, because the weapon the Prospect has is its covert cloak.
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
the holtzman experience
CAStabouts
#4 - 2014-10-22 18:38:32 UTC
Alundil wrote:

I've never needed to use the drone bay on the venture other than perhaps for lols.
if you miss the probes scanning you or your location and can't get off the cloud and cloaked in time


I'm sorry Sir, but have you EVER mined/gassed in an ORE|Frig ???

Quote:
Otherwise there's very little reason you should not be able to burn off of the cloud and cloak/warp long before something lands and locks you.


You have never mined/gassed in an ORE|Frig alright.
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
the holtzman experience
CAStabouts
#5 - 2014-10-22 18:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
I'm going to say no, because the weapon the Prospect has is its covert cloak.


That's the point of the proposed 'range bonus to gas harvesters'; you can't cloak (NOT EVEN COV-OPS CLOAK) while gas-harvesting; you'll need to stay <1500m to clouds while harvesting, yet cloaking only works while you are >2000m to other entities (including clouds).
Ix Method
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-10-22 19:07:02 UTC
It is a bit odd that half a dozen of you can go out mining in these things yet still have no way to deal with belt rats.

Imagine the short range is purposely there to prevent you having an AB running in tandem.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-10-22 19:17:06 UTC
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
I'm going to say no, because the weapon the Prospect has is its covert cloak.


That's the point of the proposed 'range bonus to gas harvesters'; you can't cloak (NOT EVEN COV-OPS CLOAK) while gas-harvesting;you'll need to stay <1500m to clouds while harvesting, yet cloaking only works while you are >2000m to other entities (including clouds).


How long does it usually take you to burn 501m? I can burn 501m starting from 0m/s in a Thrasher in about 3 seconds. 501 / 3 = 167. It shouldn't take a Prospect very long to accelerate to 167m/s.

ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
Alundil
Rolled Out
#8 - 2014-10-22 20:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alundil
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Alundil wrote:

I've never needed to use the drone bay on the venture other than perhaps for lols.
if you miss the probes scanning you or your location and can't get off the cloud and cloaked in time


I'm sorry Sir, but have you EVER mined/gassed in an ORE|Frig ???

Quote:
Otherwise there's very little reason you should not be able to burn off of the cloud and cloak/warp long before something lands and locks you.


You have never mined/gassed in an ORE|Frig alright.

Uh - yes. Quite frequently. I live in C5 wspace but have lived in C2/3/4 as well. And so yes. I have used, extensively, the ORE mining frigates.

It really isn't hard to do. Set a keep at range distance default (something far like 150km or more) and if you see probes or unknown ships on dscan you simply selected the gas cloud and click keep at range. Activate MWD and and then warp away and viola, safely away from whatever might tackle/shoot you. The end. (This works without fail in a Venture). For a prospect, simply insert "Activate cloak" in between MWD and warp. Easy as pie.

Venture will easily hit over 2700m/s and the prospect can easily reach over 3000m/s. Either of those velocities is more than enough to outrun the initial tackle by anything cloaky IF you're paying attention.

Considering that you seem to not have figured this out I must presume that you've died, repeatedly, in ORE Frigs. I'm sorry for you loss(es). But those still don't legitimize your request, Sir.


Case in point: Prospect setup to gtfo at a moments notice (explanation for you = less than 3 seconds)
[Prospect, I'll take my chances]
Overdrive Injector System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Inertia Stabilizers II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Scoped Survey Scanner
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Gas Cloud Harvester II
Gas Cloud Harvester II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing II

http://i.imgur.com/02jDV4y.png
All the gas harvesting goodness + cloak + crazy heated speed + >600m/s cloaked + align and warp in under 3sec

Operators guide: Have dscan up and refresh it periodically. Keep MWD pre-heated for > 5200m/s exit velocity
If you see probes on scan, or an unknown ship on scan (or if you're gassing/mining in a place with local - a neut pilot appear) select the glass cloud and click the keep at range butan (you did remember to set this at some far default range yes?) or a gtfo celestial of your choice and click align. Immediately activate the pre-heated MWD (you did pre-heat right?) and almost instantaneously blast yourself far enough away from the cloud to cloak/warp/whatever. Several seconds later, chuckle when someone lands in the site wondering where you went. It really is that easy. In the case of a venture in stead of a prospect you will only reach a heated speed of >3880m/s and can't warp cloaked so you either cloak and coast out of danger, or you align and warp away. In both scenarios it's damn difficult to catch ventures and prospects because they're really agile.

I'm right behind you
Alundil
Rolled Out
#9 - 2014-10-22 21:38:49 UTC
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
I'm going to say no, because the weapon the Prospect has is its covert cloak.


That's the point of the proposed 'range bonus to gas harvesters'; you can't cloak (NOT EVEN COV-OPS CLOAK) while gas-harvesting; you'll need to stay <1500m to clouds while harvesting, yet cloaking only works while you are >2000m to other entities (including clouds).

My curiosity got the better of me. You've (no telling on/if any alts you might have) lost two ventures. One to a Manticore and one to a Rapier.

Both cases were in low sec Placid in an asteroid belt or an ore anomaly where there's local channel/instant intel. In either case, Manticore or the Rapier, you should have had more than enough time to warp out of the belt IF you were paying attention because Serpentis Soldier rats don't point/scram. In the case of the Manticore, unless it was a sebo'd Manticore purpose built to hunt frigates you'd have at least 4s to align+warp in the venture (very doable) and that's if the Manticore pilot was perfect on the decloak/lock and the server tick fairy smiled upon his hull. In the case of the Rapier, which gets zero targeting delay reduction bonus like the Manticore does, you're looking at a minimum of 11secs (again barring sebo'd setups) from the time the Rapier decloaks to being locked up. This is more than enough time to get out of there. With the prospect this is even easier as it is faster overall by a health margin and aligns a lot faster than the venture too boot.

Both the Venture and the Prospect will easily outrun either a Manticore or a Rapier (even with the extended range and dual webs because you have over 10 seconds of heated MWD to pick up speed before the webs hit).

I've killed several ventures. They are not easy to catch if the pilot is paying attention or not being predictable. I've never been killed in a venture even though it's been attempted more than once.

I'm right behind you
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#10 - 2014-10-22 22:38:14 UTC
I don't know about the prospect, but I'd like a venture that mines ice.

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Alundil
Rolled Out
#11 - 2014-10-22 23:50:11 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:
I don't know about the prospect, but I'd like a venture that mines ice.

That would be useful to ninja ice from convenient 00 connections.

I'm right behind you
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#12 - 2014-10-23 00:15:30 UTC
Wolf Incaelum wrote:
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
I'm going to say no, because the weapon the Prospect has is its covert cloak.


That's the point of the proposed 'range bonus to gas harvesters'; you can't cloak (NOT EVEN COV-OPS CLOAK) while gas-harvesting;you'll need to stay <1500m to clouds while harvesting, yet cloaking only works while you are >2000m to other entities (including clouds).


How long does it usually take you to burn 501m? I can burn 501m starting from 0m/s in a Thrasher in about 3 seconds. 501 / 3 = 167. It shouldn't take a Prospect very long to accelerate to 167m/s.


his problem is that if he is mining gas and someone comes to him he cant cloak, and as they wil target him straight away he cant cloak even if he travels the 501 meters extra that is needed. he wants 100% immunity and that is not what eve is about so my answer is NO the prospect is fine as it is

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Tedd Haggard
Banana Co.
#13 - 2014-10-23 00:39:50 UTC
I recently upgraded from my venture to a prospect and I have to admit I was a little miffed it didn't have a drone bay. I was expecting it to be a venture + cov ops cloak + bigger cargo hold. But no drone bay and no inbuilt warp core stabs - kinda sucks, but I accept it's done in the name of balance. And lets face it, there's nothing more exciting in EVE than nearly being caught.

After some thought and googling fits, it's apparent that the drones would be of little use. Where would I take a prospect that my drones could actually provide defence? Certainly not gonna be of any use when ninja mining in a wormhole. They would only be of use against belt rats in hisec - and I don't need a prospect to mine there.

The best use of a prospect IMO is to use it like a caravan; pack everything in and go a road trip. I load mine with a mobile depot then pack everything in; gas harvesters, mining lasers, data/relic decryptors, probes and launcher, some weapons. This ship is a blast for variety.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#14 - 2014-10-23 01:26:46 UTC
Have not mined anything in several years but I say -1 to this idea.

Keep aligned to anything you can warp to, keep an eye on d-scan and your overview and there should be no reason for the additional range on the harvesters.

Alundil wrote:
Case in point: Prospect setup to gtfo at a moments notice (explanation for you = less than 3 seconds)
[Prospect, I'll take my chances]
Overdrive Injector System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Inertia Stabilizers II


May I suggest that you exchange one of the Nanofibers for a second inertia stabilizer, that should reduce align time by another 2 to 3 tenths of a second making this fit a sub 2.5 second align if you have all level 5 skills, with all level 4' skills it should still be sub 3 second.
Browneye84
Anti Social Spacemen
#15 - 2014-10-23 11:10:24 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Have not mined anything in several years but I say -1 to this idea.

Keep aligned to anything you can warp to, keep an eye on d-scan and your overview and there should be no reason for the additional range on the harvesters.

.



Thats the point, you cannot 'keep aligned' as your harvesting range is 1,500m... could you explain how you keep aligned and mine when you have 1,500m to work with.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#16 - 2014-10-23 13:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Browneye84 wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Have not mined anything in several years but I say -1 to this idea.

Keep aligned to anything you can warp to, keep an eye on d-scan and your overview and there should be no reason for the additional range on the harvesters.

.



Thats the point, you cannot 'keep aligned' as your harvesting range is 1,500m... could you explain how you keep aligned and mine when you have 1,500m to work with.


Are you sure you are a miner? Hell every miner I know learns this trick in the first few weeks.

I can passively align a Hulk and stay within less that 1,000 meters of an asteroid and you cannot figure out how to passively align a ship as small and nimble as the prospect in less than 1,500 meters. I suggest a trip back to basic piloting skills training cause you sir need it desperately

However since you did ask nicely here are the basics.
Approach asteroid or gas cloud.
When you get within range start harvesting/mining.
When you reach less than 500 meters from roid/cloud stop ship.
Find something, anything in space you have a clear warp path to that you can warp to, station, gate whatever.
Right click object and select align to.
Once aligned stop ship.
Congratulations you are now passively aligned to that object thus reducing the time required to GTFO to about half or a little more of your normal align time.

Considering that a Prospect can be fit to align in less than 2.5 seconds you are now talking about needing less than 2 seconds to GTFO.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#17 - 2014-10-23 13:45:26 UTC
Passive alignment makes no difference because to the programming level of EVE a ship is a sphere and the fore of a ship is only a designated reference point on that sphere. As soon as you are 0.0m/s you can accelerate in any direction equally as fast and warp in any direction equally as early. This is why the mwd/cloak trick works. It's also why some ships can be seen just about warping sideways if their align time is low enough.

For reference a triple i-stab raptor has an alignment time under 2 seconds, you get ONE server tick to lock and point this ship.
Browneye84
Anti Social Spacemen
#18 - 2014-10-23 14:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Browneye84
Donnachadh wrote:
Browneye84 wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Have not mined anything in several years but I say -1 to this idea.

Keep aligned to anything you can warp to, keep an eye on d-scan and your overview and there should be no reason for the additional range on the harvesters.

.



Thats the point, you cannot 'keep aligned' as your harvesting range is 1,500m... could you explain how you keep aligned and mine when you have 1,500m to work with.


Are you sure you are a miner? Hell every miner I know learns this trick in the first few weeks.

I can passively align a Hulk and stay within less that 1,000 meters of an asteroid and you cannot figure out how to passively align a ship as small and nimble as the prospect in less than 1,500 meters. I suggest a trip back to basic piloting skills training cause you sir need it desperately

However since you did ask nicely here are the basics.
Approach asteroid or gas cloud.
When you get within range start harvesting/mining.
When you reach less than 500 meters from roid/cloud stop ship.
Find something, anything in space you have a clear warp path to that you can warp to, station, gate whatever.
Right click object and select align to.
Once aligned stop ship.
Congratulations you are now passively aligned to that object thus reducing the time required to GTFO to about half or a little more of your normal align time.

Considering that a Prospect can be fit to align in less than 2.5 seconds you are now talking about needing less than 2 seconds to GTFO.


<--- never claimed to be a miner, would never admit that in public O_O

I see we were talking two slightly different things. I wasnt talking 'passive aligned' aka, pointing in the right direction but not actually moving. I was referring (wrongly perhaps) to being 'actively aligned' = physically moving towards something to be able to insta warp. I admit we were both right.

quick edit: I may or may not have been caught before in gas sites, by stealth bombers with the site already BM'd. There isnt much defence for that so no changes will help. Just die/fight back, then buy another ship and continue = profits
Ix Method
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-10-23 16:25:42 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Are you sure you are a miner? Hell every miner I know learns this trick in the first few weeks.

I can passively align.

You're adorable.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-10-24 17:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolf Incaelum
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Wolf Incaelum wrote:
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
I'm going to say no, because the weapon the Prospect has is its covert cloak.


That's the point of the proposed 'range bonus to gas harvesters'; you can't cloak (NOT EVEN COV-OPS CLOAK) while gas-harvesting;you'll need to stay <1500m to clouds while harvesting, yet cloaking only works while you are >2000m to other entities (including clouds).


How long does it usually take you to burn 501m? I can burn 501m starting from 0m/s in a Thrasher in about 3 seconds. 501 / 3 = 167. It shouldn't take a Prospect very long to accelerate to 167m/s.


his problem is that if he is mining gas and someone comes to him he cant cloak, and as they wil target him straight away he cant cloak even if he travels the 501 meters extra that is needed. he wants 100% immunity and that is not what eve is about so my answer is NO the prospect is fine as it is


Hell, he doesn't even NEED to cloak. If someone scans him down and gets the drop on him, it's his fault for not having a bounce point or two set up (or safes). Inbound ships appear on grid a few seconds before they actually leave warp, so there is a little bit of an extra buffer added to the time it takes to get a lock. Even if the inbound ship is sebo'd, if you stay aligned to a bounce point or safe and start warping to it as soon as the other ship appears on grid, you'll be starting to warp (and therefore immune to being locked) by the time the other ship has a chance to start locking you.

ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
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