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Do Away With Skillbooks (or) Allow Injection Without PreRequisites
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#21 - 2014-10-20 12:57:39 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You are stuck in Jita then for at least 19 hours. Not to mention that you also pay a premium in most cases if you buy skills in Jita. Or if you deathclone back, the JC is gone. Everytime. JCing has some severe consequences.

Whereas, being able to inject hundreds of skills into your skill queue and skill tree and then never return to High sec or Low sec, not to mention that no one can take the skills once they are in your queue/tree, bears no consequences at all for the char.

Both methods are very different and barely, if at all, comparable.

But the skills are completely safe.


You have to suffer the consequences of that safety. In contrast to the suggested change.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-10-20 13:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord TGR
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You are stuck in Jita then for at least 19 hours. Not to mention that you also pay a premium in most cases if you buy skills in Jita. Or if you deathclone back, the JC is gone. Everytime. JCing has some severe consequences.

Whereas, being able to inject hundreds of skills into your skill queue and skill tree and then never return to High sec or Low sec, not to mention that no one can take the skills once they are in your queue/tree, bears no consequences at all for the char.

Both methods are very different and barely, if at all, comparable.

But the skills are completely safe.


You have to suffer the consequences of that safety. In contrast to the suggested change.

In other words, all you're interested in is keeping a quality of life improvement from hitting EVE.

Maybe we should do away with the skillqueue as well. You're not suffering the consequence from not being logged in at all times, after all, and definitely not now that they're going to make it endless.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-10-20 13:09:29 UTC
Meat Missile wrote:
New players begin in a station with almost every skillbook they need. Now they join a nullsec group and are paying 5x markup for only half of the skillbooks (if that) they need to train.

What's that? Need to go to highsec every few days to buy another set of skillbooks? Too bad you maxed out your jump fatigue and have to go 50+ jumps ONE WAY now to the nearest skillbook seeded hub.

Why not cut out the bullshit and either have skills you can train appear to just begin training (or) allow people to inject all the skillbooks they can financially afford before they can train them.



This fits under the 5 "P" Rule.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#24 - 2014-10-20 13:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lord TGR wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You are stuck in Jita then for at least 19 hours. Not to mention that you also pay a premium in most cases if you buy skills in Jita. Or if you deathclone back, the JC is gone. Everytime. JCing has some severe consequences.

Whereas, being able to inject hundreds of skills into your skill queue and skill tree and then never return to High sec or Low sec, not to mention that no one can take the skills once they are in your queue/tree, bears no consequences at all for the char.

Both methods are very different and barely, if at all, comparable.

But the skills are completely safe.


You have to suffer the consequences of that safety. In contrast to the suggested change.

In other words, all you're interested in is keeping a quality of life improvement from hitting EVE.

Maybe we should do away with the skillqueue as well. You're not suffering the consequence from not being logged in at all times, after all, and definitely not now that they're going to make it endless.


Sure, why not? Am logged in every day a couple of hours anyway and don't have a problem with that at all. And if I happen to not be able to log in for several days or weeks, I plug in a long skill to accommodate for that. I am not sure how your removal of skill queue overtime will hit me, so please explain.

Not to mention that these are 2 very different things: if I am training the skill, I already have brought it to where ever I need it to be. I regularly do trips to school stations with my alts and toons through all sorts of territory to get new skill books. As soon as I have them in my home/destination, I have taken the risk on and have overcome the risk and consequences.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-10-20 13:15:10 UTC
Ah man, I miss the days of being excited to inject a new skill book every week or so.

Now it's more like once every 6 months.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-10-20 13:18:28 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You are stuck in Jita then for at least 19 hours. Not to mention that you also pay a premium in most cases if you buy skills in Jita. Or if you deathclone back, the JC is gone. Everytime. JCing has some severe consequences.

Whereas, being able to inject hundreds of skills into your skill queue and skill tree and then never return to High sec or Low sec, not to mention that no one can take the skills once they are in your queue/tree, bears no consequences at all for the char.

Both methods are very different and barely, if at all, comparable.

But the skills are completely safe.


You have to suffer the consequences of that safety. In contrast to the suggested change.

In other words, all you're interested in is keeping a quality of life improvement from hitting EVE.

Maybe we should do away with the skillqueue as well. You're not suffering the consequence from not being logged in at all times, after all, and definitely not now that they're going to make it endless.


Sure, why not? Am logged in every day a couple of hours anyway and don't have a problem with that at all. And if I happen to not be able to log in for several days or weeks, I plug in a long skill to accommodate for that. I am not sure how your removal of skill queue overtime will hit me, so please explain.

All I can say is, good thing CCP aren't listening to people like you. I'm sure you thought the old manufacturing UI was awesome, too, and the ability to sell multiple things at the same time to be an utter and complete waste of time because it's not hardcore enough. Real men like it when their arms are completely ruined from repetitive strain injuries.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#27 - 2014-10-20 13:29:26 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Sure, why not? Am logged in every day a couple of hours anyway and don't have a problem with that at all. And if I happen to not be able to log in for several days or weeks, I plug in a long skill to accommodate for that. I am not sure how your removal of skill queue overtime will hit me, so please explain.

All I can say is, good thing CCP aren't listening to people like you. I'm sure you thought the old manufacturing UI was awesome, too, and the ability to sell multiple things at the same time to be an utter and complete waste of time because it's not hardcore enough. Real men like it when their arms are completely ruined from repetitive strain injuries.


It wasn't me who made an unreasonable suggestion (the skill queue limit). Roll

I did not bother with the old indu interface, because there hardly was any at all. I am not completely happy with the new interface, because it wastes so much space with fanciness where hard data could be properly displayed (see my comments on the first drafts of the interface). I definitely like the possibility to sell several items at once, although I have yet to encounter a situation where I desperately need it.
What does this have to do with the skill and connected transport of skills? Do you want to say that flying in space, transporting your belongings, is not desirable and results in "real men like it when their arms are completely ruined from repetitive strain injuries."?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-10-20 13:43:46 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
What does this have to do with the skill and connected transport of skills? Do you want to say that flying in space, transporting your belongings, is not desirable and results in "real men like it when their arms are completely ruined from repetitive strain injuries."?

No, what I want to say is that since they're already looking to make the skill queue even less cockstabby, going that little extra mile doesn't hurt.

And skillbooks aren't very high up on what's "dangerous" to transport anywhere, anyways.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#29 - 2014-10-20 13:46:13 UTC
No to getting rid of skillbooks, that's a pretty big industry in the game, and it doesn't need to just disappear.

No to allowing injection without prereqs. First of all they probably simply cannot make that change, and secondly I am pretty sure it is intended to be the chore that it is.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2014-10-20 14:08:16 UTC
They're actually looking at injections without pre-reqs on a skill queue level. There was a CCP post about it a (good) while back.

I suspect the unlimited duration skill queue is highly likely a stepping stone to this.

Of course, I have been wrong before Smile
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#31 - 2014-10-20 14:38:59 UTC
No bitter vet thing here but I say NO to this idea.

Planning your training and the skill books needed for that are and always should be a part of this game.

If a character is so new in the game that they would need to make weekly trips for skill books then perhaps they should not be in nul sec quite yet, if for no other reason than the skill books. Either that or someone needs to help them understand how jump clones can help them with this situation.

Making sure their new / newer players have all of the skill books needed for free or reduced rates is the responsibility of the corp/alliance, if they are not willing to do that then perhaps these players need to find a better corp to call home. And please spare me the crap about how much it costs to ferry these skill book into nul at 0.01m3 each hundreds if not thousands of them can be crammed into the unused space in a cargo hold when the ship/ships are making a run for anything else.

From a back end point It would add to the complexity of the code to have to make all the checks and cross checks to insure that everything was in the que in the proper order. On the surface of it this would not seem like a difficult thing to do but then the only ones who know for sure are the devs that write the code.
BuddyKnife
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-10-20 16:49:58 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Sure, why not? Am logged in every day a couple of hours anyway and don't have a problem with that at all. And if I happen to not be able to log in for several days or weeks, I plug in a long skill to accommodate for that. I am not sure how your removal of skill queue overtime will hit me, so please explain.

All I can say is, good thing CCP aren't listening to people like you. I'm sure you thought the old manufacturing UI was awesome, too, and the ability to sell multiple things at the same time to be an utter and complete waste of time because it's not hardcore enough. Real men like it when their arms are completely ruined from repetitive strain injuries.


It wasn't me who made an unreasonable suggestion (the skill queue limit). Roll

I did not bother with the old indu interface, because there hardly was any at all. I am not completely happy with the new interface, because it wastes so much space with fanciness where hard data could be properly displayed (see my comments on the first drafts of the interface). I definitely like the possibility to sell several items at once, although I have yet to encounter a situation where I desperately need it.
What does this have to do with the skill and connected transport of skills? Do you want to say that flying in space, transporting your belongings, is not desirable and results in "real men like it when their arms are completely ruined from repetitive strain injuries."?


So bitter and hardly a vet.

If you would like to go back to the days of alarm clocking because BS5 finishes at 2 am that is your prerogative and I welcome you to do so. For the rest of us who own 15 copies of multitasking because who can remember to inject the skill this change would be a very nice way to make life easier for both new and old players alike.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#33 - 2014-10-20 17:09:33 UTC
What I could see happening is where you actually have all the skills you can train listed already in your training character sheet. Then for each skill you can simply right click and inject the skill for up to a 50% markup. You could still retain the skillbooks seeded in the game, and for those that are drops and are not seeded on the market. From there they should just change the prerequisite check from injecting the skill, to trying to train the skill to level 1, when you attempt to save any changes to the skill queue.

This setup would still allow the buying/selling/trading/kill mailing of skillbooks, but realistically, it just makes life alot better for everyone, especially since they are turning skill queues to an unlimited amount of time (Which I think should be changed to how far you are PLEX'd for, just to give another visual reminder of when you need to PLEX again).

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2014-10-20 17:21:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
BuddyKnife wrote:
So bitter and hardly a vet.

If you would like to go back to the days of alarm clocking because BS5 finishes at 2 am that is your prerogative and I welcome you to do so. For the rest of us who own 15 copies of multitasking because who can remember to inject the skill this change would be a very nice way to make life easier for both new and old players alike.


Why would I have alarm clocked? Ugh If a skill runs out in the middle of the night, it runs out in the middle of the night. A couple hours of no training hardly kill me or brings my progression to a grinding stand-still. *shakes his head* I would probably have put in skills that make the queue end when I wake up or when I have time to play again.

I find this statement amusing, though. On the one hand, I am always told to take the game less serious and that it's just a game, yet people alarm clocked to put in new skills. Lol

Hopelesshobo wrote:
What I could see happening is where you actually have all the skills you can train listed already in your training character sheet. Then for each skill you can simply right click and inject the skill for up to a 50% markup.


He's already complaining about the slightly higher than NPC markups of contemporary times. Can you imagine how he would cringe with 50 % markups?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#35 - 2014-10-20 17:32:01 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
2nd Solution:
Use an alt in an inty or fast cloaker to ferry the books. Plan ahead.


Seriously though. You made the decision to move AWAY from civilization to join up with a crew at a dirty digsite.
The pay, the independence, and the comraderie may be good, but you're still sleeping in a tent and paying through the nose to have things delivered.
Working as intended.

--Gadget

This.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#36 - 2014-10-20 17:40:23 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:


Hopelesshobo wrote:
What I could see happening is where you actually have all the skills you can train listed already in your training character sheet. Then for each skill you can simply right click and inject the skill for up to a 50% markup.


He's already complaining about the slightly higher than NPC markups of contemporary times. Can you imagine how he would cringe with 50 % markups?


Technically, in his OP he said a 500% markup...but yeah, I wasn't only talking to the OP. It's the idea that immediately popped in my head when they announced unlimited skill queues because I thought to myself, whats the point when you are training for a specific thing, yet you can't inject half the skills you need to train for whatever it is you are training for.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#37 - 2014-10-20 18:05:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Deveron
This is a poor idea........
Show me any other game that doesnt have some prereq level or different skill to be trained for before picking up another one.

Whether they are called scrolls or whatever. Now as to injecting...no it should be kept the way it is working....you dont start learning algebra till you have a firm grasp of basic addition and subtraction muliplication and division do you? Same thing here. Prereqs should remain.
Besides learning how to play the game is difficult enough for true newbs because they have to learn the why's and why not's of training up into particular things.
Getting rid of pre-reqs i think will have more and more peeps trained with stuff across the board and no real understanding or focus into things......fine for vets...we know what we are doing. Bad for newbies.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-10-20 19:16:03 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
No bitter vet thing here but I say NO to this idea.

Planning your training and the skill books needed for that are and always should be a part of this game.

Nobody's saying you should get rid of planning your training and skill books.

Donnachadh wrote:
If a character is so new in the game that they would need to make weekly trips for skill books then perhaps they should not be in nul sec quite yet, if for no other reason than the skill books. Either that or someone needs to help them understand how jump clones can help them with this situation.

Saying "you shouldn't be in nullsec because you're too new" is a common fallacy, but it's still a fallacy. You should go to nullsec as soon as possible, because that's where you'll find the most fun, and that's where you're most likely to actually keep subscribing.

Donnachadh wrote:
Making sure their new / newer players have all of the skill books needed for free or reduced rates is the responsibility of the corp/alliance, if they are not willing to do that then perhaps these players need to find a better corp to call home. And please spare me the crap about how much it costs to ferry these skill book into nul at 0.01m3 each hundreds if not thousands of them can be crammed into the unused space in a cargo hold when the ship/ships are making a run for anything else.

We do stock what a newbie needs, it still doesn't take away the fact that as a newbie, and especially as a newbie, you're left with having to micromanage your skillqueue to a ridiculous degree, because most of the skills you want to learn are dependent on tons of other skills, so you're constantly having to wait for the prereqs to finish before you can inject the next level of skills. It makes absolutely no difference to the game itself if they let you inject all the skills you want to train for the next, say, year, and any skill which hasn't had its prereqs filled would just wait until the prereqs HAVE been filled to actually train. It is purely a quality of life improvement, removing unnecessary grind/hassle.

Donnachadh wrote:
From a back end point It would add to the complexity of the code to have to make all the checks and cross checks to insure that everything was in the que in the proper order. On the surface of it this would not seem like a difficult thing to do but then the only ones who know for sure are the devs that write the code.

The complexity it would add to the code would be negligible, especially compared to the quality of life increase it would afford.

Max Deveron wrote:
This is a poor idea........
Show me any other game that doesnt have some prereq level or different skill to be trained for before picking up another one.

Whether they are called scrolls or whatever. Now as to injecting...no it should be kept the way it is working....you dont start learning algebra till you have a firm grasp of basic addition and subtraction muliplication and division do you? Same thing here. Prereqs should remain.
Besides learning how to play the game is difficult enough for true newbs because they have to learn the why's and why not's of training up into particular things.
Getting rid of pre-reqs i think will have more and more peeps trained with stuff across the board and no real understanding or focus into things......fine for vets...we know what we are doing. Bad for newbies.

Nobody's saying "get rid of prereqs", just "don't let missing prereqs stop you from injecting a skill". You're still having to train all the prereqs before the skill'll actually start training.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-10-20 19:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tengu Grib
Skillbooks allow the opportunity for people to make very bad decisions and do very foolish things. This in turn creates content for a wide range of players. As such I would not be in favor of removing them. Allowing them to be injected without prerequisites... might as well just remove them all together and just add a price to the skill queue itself to 'unlock' it. Again this removes gameplay and content and does not generate anything new.

In addition, with all the changes to force projection, we will almost certainly see a vast increase in 0.0 market seeding, purely out of necessity. I'd also recommend joining a 0.0 corp that actually takes care of it's new members. For instance the 0.0 corp that I was previously a part of (prior to purchasing this character) had a container in our home station which contained virtually any skillbook one might need. All you had to do was inform a director if you took the last copy of a particular book.

-1 from me.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-10-20 19:32:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord TGR
Tengu Grib wrote:
Skillbooks allow the opportunity for people to make very bad decisions and do very foolish things. This in turn creates content for a wide range of players. As such I would not be in favor of removing them. Allowing them to be injected without prerequisites... might as well just remove them all together and just add a price to the skill queue itself to 'unlock' it. Again this removes gameplay and content and does not generate anything new.

-1 from me.

In our newbies' case, they've got access to all the books they need in our main system (or if it isn't, someone'll just import some more). The only difference with allowing injecting without prereqs being filled is that the newbies would be able to fully utilize the upcoming unlimited skill queue without having to constantly wait for some skills to finish before injecting others, thus reducing tedious grind.

And again, being able to add them without the prereq doesn't mean they're active or will be trained, they would simply be in the queue, waiting for the prereqs to be fulfilled. They'll still have to either travel to a place to pick it up, or have someone else import them for them. There's no change there, only in quality of life for the newbie.

Tengu Grib wrote:
In addition, with all the changes to force projection, we will almost certainly see a vast increase in 0.0 market seeding, purely out of necessity. I'd also recommend joining a 0.0 corp that actually takes care of it's new members. For instance the 0.0 corp that I was previously a part of (prior to purchasing this character) had a container in our home station which contained virtually any skillbook one might need. All you had to do was inform a director if you took the last copy of a particular book.

Nothing in the idea of injecting a skillbook without the prereqs being filled change any part of this.