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Wormholes

 
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Why Aren't More People In W-Space?

First post
Author
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#121 - 2014-10-18 14:23:39 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:

I did state in my above post that each player makes 300 mil from the Proteus construction. not to mention the extra 100 mil or so per day in excess loot. Keep in mind my corp is a crappy indie corp barely capable of flying bc's reliably...imagine what a real corp can do, at least 3 times as much. I build my proteus close enough to within a day, so meh on the prep time.

Hisec incursions are out of wack, i wont debate that, but in terms of what my lot do it seems fair, were risking about 200 mil worth of ships to make 1.2 bil+ in 8 hours, incursion runners have to move their crap, deal with drama, get into a fleet and trust some strangers to protect their blingy pirate ships, to make the same isk, it seems wh spelunking is easier.

The advantage of whs is you can make your pvp isk easily, without kissing some nullsec alliances, or incursion fcs ass, that to me is worth the extra "effort"

Heres an idea, if you lot cant deal with the time/effort associated with wormholes, maybe you shouldnt come to them, it means more room for people like me, who stick with it instead of whinging about not enough isk/hour.


Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.
Lets start with the incursionstuff:
Dealing with drama, getting into fleets and trusting strangers is exactly the same in a wormholecorp, it is also your personal decicion with whom you run. The only real reasons incurions are "communities" and not corps/alliances are wardecs and corptheft. So even not taking different spaces into account there is less risk. Try living with a few small corps in a wormhole, just coping every bookmark 5 times and putting it into a container is sooo much fun to do on a daily basis.
Also noone is forcing incusionrunners to run officerfit piratebattleships, you can do it in T2 fit BS. Ofc you will loose efficiency but that is exactly the same everywhere else.

Many wormhole- or lowsecalliances have run incursionsites on their own, so no need to kiss anything you would not kiss the whole time anyway. Same goes for nullsecratting, just take a wormhole there and you can do whatever you like, most likely they will dock up for hours anyways.

Then there are your numbers, they are so all over the place it isn´t even funny.
Are you doing the good old "if I mine it myself it is free" maths or are you just putting the numbers out in a bad way? Otherwise If you make 1.2B in 8 hours divided through 4 people you´d be making more money just buying everything off the market and spend the rest of the time salvaging wrecks on the perimeter gate.

Since we are on the topic of gas, isn´t it funny how nullsec can´t produce t2 because "we have too little of those moonmins in this region" while lowerclass whs often for weeks get no gassites and never have enough highendgas to produce t3s from the ribbons you farmed yourself. Not to mention getting the right hullblueprints (though inventionchanges might do something there).

And while I am at it and people are talking about the golden days of j-space, CCP has buffed every other space since then, so it is not just the nerfs hitting wormholes but also the buffs to anywhere else. No-rat-explorationsites everywhere, special beltrats and reworked FW for lowsec, carrierrattingbuffs and ESS for nullsec (and less war but that is not on CCP), incusions for highsec though they got shafted a bit too.
If you have doubts if PvE buffs benefit the PvPers just look at lowsec 3 years ago and now.
Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2014-10-18 17:26:59 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:


Heres an idea, if you lot cant deal with the time/effort associated with wormholes, maybe you shouldnt come to them, it means more room for people like me, who stick with it instead of whinging about not enough isk/hour.


i look forward to making ur next daytrip as easy as possible... vov
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#123 - 2014-10-18 19:17:22 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:

I did state in my above post that each player makes 300 mil from the Proteus construction. not to mention the extra 100 mil or so per day in excess loot. Keep in mind my corp is a crappy indie corp barely capable of flying bc's reliably...imagine what a real corp can do, at least 3 times as much. I build my proteus close enough to within a day, so meh on the prep time.

Hisec incursions are out of wack, i wont debate that, but in terms of what my lot do it seems fair, were risking about 200 mil worth of ships to make 1.2 bil+ in 8 hours, incursion runners have to move their crap, deal with drama, get into a fleet and trust some strangers to protect their blingy pirate ships, to make the same isk, it seems wh spelunking is easier.

The advantage of whs is you can make your pvp isk easily, without kissing some nullsec alliances, or incursion fcs ass, that to me is worth the extra "effort"

Heres an idea, if you lot cant deal with the time/effort associated with wormholes, maybe you shouldnt come to them, it means more room for people like me, who stick with it instead of whinging about not enough isk/hour.


Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.
Lets start with the incursionstuff:
Dealing with drama, getting into fleets and trusting strangers is exactly the same in a wormholecorp, it is also your personal decicion with whom you run. The only real reasons incurions are "communities" and not corps/alliances are wardecs and corptheft. So even not taking different spaces into account there is less risk. Try living with a few small corps in a wormhole, just coping every bookmark 5 times and putting it into a container is sooo much fun to do on a daily basis.
Also noone is forcing incusionrunners to run officerfit piratebattleships, you can do it in T2 fit BS. Ofc you will loose efficiency but that is exactly the same everywhere else.

Many wormhole- or lowsecalliances have run incursionsites on their own, so no need to kiss anything you would not kiss the whole time anyway. Same goes for nullsecratting, just take a wormhole there and you can do whatever you like, most likely they will dock up for hours anyways.

Then there are your numbers, they are so all over the place it isn´t even funny.
Are you doing the good old "if I mine it myself it is free" maths or are you just putting the numbers out in a bad way? Otherwise If you make 1.2B in 8 hours divided through 4 people you´d be making more money just buying everything off the market and spend the rest of the time salvaging wrecks on the perimeter gate.

Since we are on the topic of gas, isn´t it funny how nullsec can´t produce t2 because "we have too little of those moonmins in this region" while lowerclass whs often for weeks get no gassites and never have enough highendgas to produce t3s from the ribbons you farmed yourself. Not to mention getting the right hullblueprints (though inventionchanges might do something there).

And while I am at it and people are talking about the golden days of j-space, CCP has buffed every other space since then, so it is not just the nerfs hitting wormholes but also the buffs to anywhere else. No-rat-explorationsites everywhere, special beltrats and reworked FW for lowsec, carrierrattingbuffs and ESS for nullsec (and less war but that is not on CCP), incusions for highsec though they got shafted a bit too.
If you have doubts if PvE buffs benefit the PvPers just look at lowsec 3 years ago and now.


I have lived with a pair of small corps in a wh...they may or may not have been chased out after a bit of a debacle :P It isnt easy, but why should whs be easy? I spoke of incursions in the light of my experience with them, for what my guys do its less work in whs, i never stated that its true for the entire wh community.

I do not believe what i mine is free, tbh those people **** me off, i do make more just buying materials off of the market. The reason i get my guys to get the stuff t build the t3s is to give them a source of income, many are 2 month old newbs so im getting them to do one of the easiest things in Eve, wh daytrip.

The reason i posted the isk value for the proteus we sell is because people were complaining whs had no good drops, i was showing them they are wrong.

If wh's havent been buffed, maybe that shows they dont need buffing? They offer a crapton of isk at very low risk and any newb can find them anywhere. (at least black holes are kinda good now, theres a buff)
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#124 - 2014-10-18 19:23:53 UTC
Jez Amatin wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:


Heres an idea, if you lot cant deal with the time/effort associated with wormholes, maybe you shouldnt come to them, it means more room for people like me, who stick with it instead of whinging about not enough isk/hour.


i look forward to making ur next daytrip as easy as possible... vov


You are welcome to come and get us, on the off chance you find us, it shall be a glorious battle, followed promptly by my guys dieing without getting a shot off due to your falcon, and us getting instapopped by your cloaky proteus gang. But still glory!
Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2014-10-18 19:40:46 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:

The reason i posted the isk value for the proteus we sell is because people were complaining whs had no good drops, i was showing them they are wrong.

If wh's havent been buffed, maybe that shows they dont need buffing? They offer a crapton of isk at very low risk and any newb can find them anywhere. (at least black holes are kinda good now, theres a buff)


ok maybe it works for u as a daytripper (which is fine by me) but that is a very narrow viewpoint on the overall issue of wspace population as per the OP.

and im sure i dont need to explain that the blackhole buff only applies to a very small percentage of wspace - even calling that a buff is mildly entertaining, its was more a case of making them more habitable (most of them are still empty today).
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#126 - 2014-10-18 19:45:31 UTC
Jez Amatin wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:

The reason i posted the isk value for the proteus we sell is because people were complaining whs had no good drops, i was showing them they are wrong.

If wh's havent been buffed, maybe that shows they dont need buffing? They offer a crapton of isk at very low risk and any newb can find them anywhere. (at least black holes are kinda good now, theres a buff)


ok maybe it works for u as a daytripper (which is fine by me) but that is a very narrow viewpoint on the overall issue of wspace population as per the OP.

and im sure i dont need to explain that the blackhole buff only applies to a very small percentage of wspace - even calling that a buff is mildly entertaining, its was more a case of making them more habitable (most of them are still empty today).


The fact that myself and others like me find it far more efficent and effective to daytrip rather than live in a wh probably helps answer the OP's question.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2014-10-19 07:30:49 UTC
T3 production is a high sec activity.
Most are produced there CCP mentioned that in the posts to the industry changes.
Most people don't manifacture anyway.
So you can't realy count that as a wormhole activity.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2014-10-19 08:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
The new T3 destroyers should bring in some new players and they will be great for traversing those crappy small ship wormholes.

We are still going to need new conflict drivers and content if there is ever going to be a sustained increase of activity in space though, IMO.
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#129 - 2014-10-19 10:52:03 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
T3 production is a high sec activity.
Most are produced there CCP mentioned that in the posts to the industry changes.
Most people don't manifacture anyway.
So you can't realy count that as a wormhole activity.


Right, the equipment that is built entirely out of components from whs cant be counted as a wormhole activity. And ofc you react the gasses in hisec too...

The assembly of the t3 parts is the smallest portion of the job, If your going to rule out t3 stuff out as a wh activity then you might as well cut out ninja gas mining as well, because a large amount of it is done in lowsec.
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#130 - 2014-10-19 10:55:11 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
The new T3 destroyers should bring in some new players and they will be great for traversing those crappy small ship wormholes.

We are still going to need new conflict drivers and content if there is ever going to be a sustained increase of activity in space though, IMO.


I agree, were going to see a roughly 2 month boost to salvage prices before they go back to their normal iskies level. Itll end up drawing no more players than what are in whs currently.
Jestor's Testor
Doomheim
#131 - 2014-10-19 18:59:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jestor's Testor
The reason I don't bother, is the fact that there is no personnel hanger.

I may trust the pos owner to not handle my goods, but I'll never have my assets open to every man my corp leadership lets through the door... Or anyone that has a password...

I want a personal hanger that can hold my battleships, I'm not letting my items go to waste in space for all too see...

I suggest making different level/sizes of pos, each with its own features like massive hangers than can distribute access...
The cost would be more fuel to run, or easier to kill, ect.

Perhaps even different versions such as miner pos, with a mineral compressor, or straight military pos, with lockdown feature and ect.

Weaker poss,s in general but they can be built next to one another for support.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2014-10-19 19:21:54 UTC
CCP: "I wonder what WH people want added to WH space...."
WH: "Personal Hangars, revert ore sites to scan-down, give Rorqs a new role..."
CCP: "Nah, let's make T3 destroyers."
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#133 - 2014-10-19 22:02:43 UTC
There is actually a thing called Personal Hangar Array

Then there's Corporate Hangar Array with divisions with access control

Then there are POS forcefields with passwords

It's perfectly viable to have 6 guys per tower with adequate privacy and security, and 6 guys have no problems splitting the costs of living. I'm not saying that POSes are perfect or even good, and the corp and tower management interfaces are absolutely terrible, but this "bloobloo no security" is total exaggeration and shouldn't really discourage anyone from setting shop in w-space.


King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#134 - 2014-10-19 22:06:16 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
The new T3 destroyers should bring in some new players and they will be great for traversing those crappy small ship wormholes.

We are still going to need new conflict drivers and content if there is ever going to be a sustained increase of activity in space though, IMO.


I agree, were going to see a roughly 2 month boost to salvage prices before they go back to their normal iskies level. Itll end up drawing no more players than what are in whs currently.


2 months, based on what? A ship class built from sleeper poop that is cheaper than strategic cruiser, and less SP-intensive will boost wh income for years.

(if it's a usable ship)

Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#135 - 2014-10-20 12:58:20 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
The new T3 destroyers should bring in some new players and they will be great for traversing those crappy small ship wormholes.

We are still going to need new conflict drivers and content if there is ever going to be a sustained increase of activity in space though, IMO.


I agree, were going to see a roughly 2 month boost to salvage prices before they go back to their normal iskies level. Itll end up drawing no more players than what are in whs currently.


2 months, based on what? A ship class built from sleeper poop that is cheaper than strategic cruiser, and less SP-intensive will boost wh income for years.

(if it's a usable ship)



2 months based on how quickly people give up on gimicky toys. I highly doubt these ships will be particularly effective, and will be used for the sake of being used. T3 or not its still a destroyer hull, and will be easily destroyed by a competent cruiser, unless ofc ccp make these things into op montrosities that beat the regular t3s stats...in which case i will admit im wrong.
Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#136 - 2014-10-20 17:00:47 UTC
I'm primarily a Faction Warfare player but dabble in wormholes (both for occasional PVP on my main, as well as for PVE and PI on some alts) so perhaps I can offer some insight from the outside.

Wormholes have some hardcore mechanics that essentially raise the bar for all who are interested in entering them to only hardcore players. The rats are deadlier than any other part of space. The players are sneakier and arguably deadlier than any other area of space and finally, the logistics of living in a wormhole are arguably more challenging most other areas of space (ship repair, affording to keep a POS fueled, while covering ship losses, etc). This hardcore environment all but ensure only hardcore players stick around in wormholes for any considerable amount of time.

I believe, getting more players involved in wormhole space starts with getting more individual pilots into wormholes and not just asking how to get new corps to enter wormholes in droves. High skill point and ship cost requirements dissuade a lot or players interested in wormholes from joining established corporations and being able to actively participate in established corporations. Basically, to improve the ecosystem of wormholes, I think you may need to take a lesson from Faction Warfare… Whether you’re a veteran player with the ability to fly HACs, Triage, T3s, and Black Ops battleships or a couple week-old character that can barely fit a meta T1 frigate we can find a place where you will have a role an can make valuable contributions to our corp/alliance and fleets. Start recruiting the noobs of today, they’ll be your veteran pilots, FCs, and corp founders of tomorrow.

If the barrier of entry to wormhole corps requires the skill points and self-sufficiency to fly and repeatedly lose well-fit T2 cruisers, battlecruisers and T3s in PVP repeatedly you can expect to be missing out on a good chunk of the player base.

Additionally, I think CCP should at least look at adding the following to the game or improve it to get more people willing to stake a claim in wormhole space.
1) Lower the barrier of entry for the PVE content in lower-class wormholes. I still think the skill point requirement is too high to run some of the sites and it’s a detterant to getting new players immediately into wormholes.
2) Allow for medical clones in wormholes. New players entering wormholes are likely not going to be experienced with the loving embrace of a dictor’s bubbles. When that happens and you lose your ship, upgrading your clone is basically a forgone conclusion. Having the ability to wake up in your POS’s Clone Vat Module would be a lot more forgiving to players new to wormholes than having to potentially fly back across the galaxy over and over again to your hole’s entrance as you repeatedly learn that lesson. (Again this may be too hardcore for players new to wormholes, it’s akin to starting a level all over again without the luxury of save points. It can and will get frustrating learning the ropes of constant D-Scan and burning out of bubbles).
3) Fix corp management roles. The risk of corp theft related to complicated roles management is something that keeps a lot of casual corporations from investing the time and ISK to plant a POS and stock it with modules and ships. Similarly, allowing the ability to have corp or alliance ship contracts in a wormhole may be nice too as an aside from a publicly accessible corp hangar.
4) Remove the mystery of System effects. They’ve been published in dev blogs by why not have them in the client itself where it is easily accessible to pilots who are new to wormholes? Veterans will know effects off the top of their head but why can’t a player new to the environment right-click the sun or show info on the system and see what these wormhole effects are?

Member of #tweetfleet @stalence // Templis CALSF // YouTube Channel

Greg Inglis
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#137 - 2014-10-22 12:58:56 UTC
super high risk. unbelievably low reward.
350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2014-10-22 14:35:02 UTC
Greg Inglis wrote:
high risk. unbelievably fun.


Fixed it for you.

If you want rewards, play a slot machine. I play for fun and that's what I have in WH's.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.

Brazilian Dream
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#139 - 2014-10-22 14:48:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Brazilian Dream
lol
Bronya Boga
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2014-10-22 15:10:48 UTC
Greg Inglis wrote:
super high risk. unbelievably low reward.


Can you define super high risk?