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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#1521 - 2014-10-19 11:34:11 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
So with the addition of the tug boat. I.e. a freighter sized ship with a massive sma can we expect to see a techh II version that had the jump freighters abilities. .. I.e. 10 ly jump range an 90% jump fatigue bonus?

yes. please yes.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1522 - 2014-10-19 11:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
Panther X wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
So with the addition of the tug boat. I.e. a freighter sized ship with a massive sma can we expect to see a techh II version that had the jump freighters abilities. .. I.e. 10 ly jump range an 90% jump fatigue bonus?

yes. please yes.



You guys are aware of the notes he made to the Tug, right?

The slide explicitly stated 'Suitable for moving multiple fitted ships through highsec' - so dont set your hopes too high that it will be so useful in null. He says also its meant to help because you cant move capitals in high - so its an equivalent to the carrier in null.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1523 - 2014-10-19 12:01:29 UTC
not sure if I like those changes. Either screw power projection properly or dont mess with it at all. Totally not wanting to train jump freighter, rorqual or any other non-combat ship on my main just for circumventing half assed power projection nerf.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1524 - 2014-10-19 12:03:10 UTC
How do you suppose you'll project power with a JF? Bump them to death with your fat pig of a ship?
Red Bluesteel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1525 - 2014-10-19 12:26:40 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
It's a thing that we would like to revisit again, but one of the key questions that comes up every time is whether we can/want to compete with player-run services in this regard.


I think you should want to. all this stuff where you need to use a third party tool because the in-game ones are a joke by comparison, aren't they an embarassment? something something accessibility something new player retention.


My personal feeling is that on the one hand the game should be playable without relying on out-of-game tools, which is currently only marginally true at best for capital travel, but on the other hand that there's a social cost to essentially shutting down player-run services by out-competing them, and that makes me somewhat uncomfortable, as well as a clear developmental cost to solving a problem that players have already sold.

Are we hitting the right balance, here and elsewhere? No. Jump planning in the client could do with being a lot better. But it's prioritized against other stuff - and both the advanced nature of jump travel and the generally unintuitable nature of jump mechanics mean that this isn't a new-player problem and the accessibility isn't solved just with a jump planner. We'd also need to, eg, let you figure out you need a cyno lit in a nearby system by a player in your fleet, too :)


All this is so confusing, but in total we have to live with you wired plans.

BUT i still want to know before the journey starts how much time a JUMP Travel from Start to Destiantion will ripoff of my personal free time, then my free time is limited and i don't want to waste more than i want to.

Actually i can imagine how much time i have to plan for my Industry Jumps but after the Patch will it be as easy as before to plan such trivial things ?
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#1526 - 2014-10-19 12:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
Sentient Blade wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
First, capital ships are not intended to be solo assets, so we don't tend to weight the needs of solo capital pilots when doing balance work.


Well there's your problem...

Carriers are the single biggest benefit to quality of life for any nullsec pilot. A handfull of carriers can do nothing to rival the blob, but can make all the difference to the logistics of a young null-faring alliance.


not to come across as harsh, but the problem isn't greyscale's (IE CCP's view) in this matter, the problem is locking oneself into the mindset you've stated since the ability to adapt, and react to any given change, and /or situation as best as one can is "the single biggest benefit' to anyone in this game.
Discounting that benefit is shooting yourself in the foot (to coin a phrase)

o/
Fly Safe
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#1527 - 2014-10-19 13:05:00 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Panther X wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
So with the addition of the tug boat. I.e. a freighter sized ship with a massive sma can we expect to see a techh II version that had the jump freighters abilities. .. I.e. 10 ly jump range an 90% jump fatigue bonus?

yes. please yes.



You guys are aware of the notes he made to the Tug, right?

The slide explicitly stated 'Suitable for moving multiple fitted ships through highsec' - so dont set your hopes too high that it will be so useful in null. He says also its meant to help because you cant move capitals in high - so its an equivalent to the carrier in null.



now, the idea of that ship I like very much,,, not the jump drive part of it so much, but the idea of a ship transport mechanic that's different from what we have to rely on now when in high sec.

o/
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1528 - 2014-10-19 13:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
Celly S wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Panther X wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
So with the addition of the tug boat. I.e. a freighter sized ship with a massive sma can we expect to see a techh II version that had the jump freighters abilities. .. I.e. 10 ly jump range an 90% jump fatigue bonus?

yes. please yes.



You guys are aware of the notes he made to the Tug, right?

The slide explicitly stated 'Suitable for moving multiple fitted ships through highsec' - so dont set your hopes too high that it will be so useful in null. He says also its meant to help because you cant move capitals in high - so its an equivalent to the carrier in null.



now, the idea of that ship I like very much,,, not the jump drive part of it so much, but the idea of a ship transport mechanic that's different from what we have to rely on now when in high sec.

o/
Celly Smunt


There is no jump drive on it - thats just what other users wish. Its like the hauler and a jump freighters difference - the tug is meant to make moving loads of ships more comfy in high sec without being able to jump unless you use a jump bridge which will add fatigue to the pilot as to any other hauler. So its basically the solution for the whining that its sooo hard to move many ships at a time and prevents further suggestions to allow capitals into high sec again.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#1529 - 2014-10-19 13:41:09 UTC
Dwissi wrote:

There is no jump drive on it - thats just what other users wish. Its like the hauler and a jump freighters difference - the tug is meant to make moving loads of ships more comfy in high sec without being able to jump unless you use a jump bridge which will add fatigue to the pilot as to any other hauler. So its basically the solution for the whining that its sooo hard to move many ships at a time and prevents further suggestions to allow capitals into high sec again.


Yeah, I got that aspect of it :)

I think that the player suggestion of a T2 version with a jump drive was just (stealth) asking CCP to give us an unarmed version of a 10ly carrier for null since many folks have made it clear in this thread that they do not want to get away from their comfort zone as CCP shakes things up a bit.

TBH?, I don't either, but, I'm already working on alternatives, strategic placement of my assets, and my own power projection, and I will have everything in place before the changes come. :P

My second in command and I (on my other account of course) have discussed alternatives, routes, GTFO scenarios and almost everything that "we" could come up with to ensure we are going down the right path to benefit from these changes instead of being hindered by them.

We will lose some of our current freedom of movement, but we will adapt...

o/
Celly Smunt




Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#1530 - 2014-10-19 13:48:03 UTC
Now that you have listed your stated goals I am giving my opinion that they will fail (again.)

Reason being that you have just made it exponentially harder for alliances to grind space in order to capture it, and so they won't do it. Everyone will just sit in their cosy blue doughnut and be happy.

As you were gentlemen.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1531 - 2014-10-19 13:51:25 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Now that you have listed your stated goals I am giving my opinion that they will fail (again.)

Reason being that you have just made it exponentially harder for alliances to grind space in order to capture it, and so they won't do it. Everyone will just sit in their cosy blue doughnut and be happy.

As you were gentlemen.

Let's not forget the fact that the sov system'll change.
Josef Djugashvilis
#1532 - 2014-10-19 14:46:13 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
How do you suppose you'll project power with a JF? Bump them to death with your fat pig of a ship?


Sir, please leave the Dominix out of this. Smile

This is not a signature.

Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#1533 - 2014-10-19 14:52:08 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
How do you suppose you'll project power with a JF? Bump them to death with your fat pig of a ship?


Sir, please leave the Dominix out of this. Smile



ROFLMAO

Nicely done Sir, nicely done...

o7
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Tikitina
Doomheim
#1534 - 2014-10-19 17:10:38 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
How do you suppose you'll project power with a JF? Bump them to death with your fat pig of a ship?


I think people are forgetting what Power Projection is.

Quote:
Power projection (or force projection) is a term used in military and political science to refer to the capacity of a state to conduct expeditionary warfare—i.e. to intimidate other nations and implement policy by means of force, or the threat thereof, in an area distant from its own territory.


In this game it is the current ability for Capital Fleets to get nearly anywhere on the map to intimidate other Alliances and implement policy by means of force.

That means they have unlimited power projection pre-update. What CCP is trying to do with these changes and the forthcoming Sov changes is to limit how far Alliances can project power from their controlled space.

Jump Freighters are a facilitator of Power Projection in this game, and a powerful one. They won't be touched much by the initial change due to CCP wanting to keep Null Sec industry viable until the can address it more directly.

As stated by CCP, once they fix Null Sec industry so it can be more independent, they plan to readdress the Jump Freighter.

Limiting Power Projection will allow a lot more different organizations to develop without having to contend with organizations from the other side of the map on a daily/weekly basis.

Byson1
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1535 - 2014-10-19 18:01:02 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Whatever the changes are going to change in the future - much more interesting is to see what already changes. A -250 delta change for Brothers of Tanga is quite a number. That reads in my book: the changes are good as something is happening


The change that is happening is opposite of what they state their goals to be.
If you want to increase small and different types of fights in null the best way to do that is to increase the various population throughout null sec. The changes are encouraging people to leave..

It's going to come down to large power blocks in compact areas. Huge sub cap fights.

Small guys will take the areas no one wants and will become fodder for roaming fleets for the big guys.

I don't know maybe CCP is talking out both sides of their mouth saying they want to help get more null sec by helping the small allinances/ increasing population of null. All I see is helping noobs take space that no one wants for the blops to attack. Sound like fun?Question

Lugh Crow-Slave
#1536 - 2014-10-19 18:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Black ops are working in a generally OK manner on TQ right now, and we want to minimize harm to their use with these changes.]


now i can accept that you are putting the jump timer on them when they jump but do not put it on just for bridging with the bridge reduction + the hauler reduction it was going to be possible to keep doing cov ops mining but if the Bridger gets exhausted just by opening up his bridge this will not work for an op to be profitable you will needing to be mining fast enough to fill a blockade runner far faster then 22 min(the current time it takes to cool down fully from opening a bridge)

How can my body be fatigued from jumping if i don't even jump.


the prospect added a whole new way to mine and play the game please don't make it collateral less then a year after it was introduced.

its not like its going to be exploited if you can just keep opening bridges with a BLOPS either the recons/sbs will have to slow boat back or the blops will have to jump to them and gain fatigue.


another problem with this is using the blops to bridge for combat YOU CAN"T BE A PART OF MOST FIGHTS!!!! if you bridge even with 0 fatigue your jump timer is over 60 seconds (not sure if sisi has the 50%reduction yet if not then stillover 30) this means that you can't jump in till after the cyno has closed and most of the time you can't reopen one till the fight is over. Now i know most times the bridge blops doesn't jump into the fight anyway but when your corp only has 1 some times you need to. another problem is for each jump your bridging blops gains 2x more fatigue over the rest of the fleet (one for opening a bridge another for jumping) causing you to build it faster limiting the operations of a corp based on the timer of one pilot

I can see why titans may need this but its going to hit small cov ops corps that don't have many bridge pilots
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1537 - 2014-10-19 19:05:13 UTC
Byson1 wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Whatever the changes are going to change in the future - much more interesting is to see what already changes. A -250 delta change for Brothers of Tanga is quite a number. That reads in my book: the changes are good as something is happening


The change that is happening is opposite of what they state their goals to be.
If you want to increase small and different types of fights in null the best way to do that is to increase the various population throughout null sec. The changes are encouraging people to leave..

It's going to come down to large power blocks in compact areas. Huge sub cap fights.

Small guys will take the areas no one wants and will become fodder for roaming fleets for the big guys.

I don't know maybe CCP is talking out both sides of their mouth saying they want to help get more null sec by helping the small allinances/ increasing population of null. All I see is helping noobs take space that no one wants for the blops to attack. Sound like fun?Question


You're seeing renters leave. Big surprise and who cares. Highsec is still there for them.

And what about small groups being gun fodder for bigger ones is wrong? Who ever said that the numbers advantage was being taken away or even reduced?

And how big are these "small alliances" people keep talking about? At some point you have to get your head out of the clouds and use some sense.
Byson1
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1538 - 2014-10-19 20:11:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Byson1
Rowells wrote:
Byson1 wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Whatever the changes are going to change in the future - much more interesting is to see what already changes. A -250 delta change for Brothers of Tanga is quite a number. That reads in my book: the changes are good as something is happening


The change that is happening is opposite of what they state their goals to be.
If you want to increase small and different types of fights in null the best way to do that is to increase the various population throughout null sec. The changes are encouraging people to leave..

It's going to come down to large power blocks in compact areas. Huge sub cap fights.

Small guys will take the areas no one wants and will become fodder for roaming fleets for the big guys.

I don't know maybe CCP is talking out both sides of their mouth saying they want to help get more null sec by helping the small allinances/ increasing population of null. All I see is helping noobs take space that no one wants for the blops to attack. Sound like fun?Question


You're seeing renters leave. Big surprise and who cares. Highsec is still there for them.

And what about small groups being gun fodder for bigger ones is wrong? Who ever said that the numbers advantage was being taken away or even reduced?

And how big are these "small alliances" people keep talking about? At some point you have to get your head out of the clouds and use some sense.


My point exactly (sorry the sarcasm didn't shine through the previous post). But seriously the change is only serving to strengthen large central power blocks. More status quo, with a little bit of, lets see them figure out how to spend hrs setting up before having the B-R-style fight. This does nothing to discourage these kind of fights, only causes more grief setting them up.

If you want more interesting small fights you need more people living in null.

I feel like a broken record. That keeps repeating. Let me clarify; People leaving null.. is not more more people in null even if they are only renters. Less people in null less targets. Targets now will be a few clingons and the large power blocks, maybe someone looking for an easy gank... If you attack the large power blocks you get the B-R style fight. If CCP makes it unattainable to even lay siege to their sov with what is available now because of nurfed caps. These powerhouses will only grow until they can with larger fleets of subcaps. If sov is too easy to roll then. people will look for more safety measures. This will do nothing to reduce nor eliminate large fights.
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Primary goals:
- Severely reduce/eliminate B-R-style fights, on the grounds that the marginal inherent value of a 4000-ship fight over a 2000-ship fight is pretty small, and the negative value accrued by the inevitable lag more than cancels that out.
- Create more traffic traveling through gates in nullsec, on the grounds that gates are a primary interaction point, and more interaction makes for a more interesting game

Secondary goals:
- Make disruption of logistics a more viable weapon for nullsec alliances, on the grounds that it opens up a more interesting range of options for waging war, provided that we don't make the experience of managing alliance logistics too negative
- Make it more viable to intercept reinforcements on their way to a battle, on the grounds that it spreads the load out across more system, allows for more interesting tactics and allows major battles to produce a wider range of opportunities and give roles to a wider range of player types and preferences
- Incentivize nullsec leaders to gravitate towards smaller political groupings, on the grounds that doing so will lead to more regular, more interesting and more combat-dense conflicts.

The primary goals are what're driving the feature; the secondary goals are things we are hoping to effect to varying degrees along the way.


If they want more people in null sec this is having the opposite effect maybe a few noobs might come out and try to take sov for a day in a system no one wants.. great cannon fodder. sure fun i get it. But this is still doing opposite of what they say they want.
Roddex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1539 - 2014-10-19 20:39:34 UTC
Just to clarify: a Titan/BlOps creating a bridge doesn't get a cooldown or fatigue? And you can create a bridge with an active cooldown timer?

This isn't how it works on SiSi at the moment, so can you verify that this is the intent?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1540 - 2014-10-19 21:28:57 UTC
Roddex wrote:
Just to clarify: a Titan/BlOps creating a bridge doesn't get a cooldown or fatigue? And you can create a bridge with an active cooldown timer?

This isn't how it works on SiSi at the moment, so can you verify that this is the intent?


in dev blog it says
Quote:
Every time you use any jump drive, jump bridge or jump portal


so it seems like just activating it could be intended to give you fatigue.

When i first read it i thought it meant going through it not just using as well as going through it.


so i hope it is a bug on SiSi but if not this is really going to hurt