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Fix Nestor = Add nullsec availablity for highsec players
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#21 - 2014-09-18 18:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
You can actually use a BLOPS and T3 pair to explore hostile areas of space very effectively. Covert cyno is way safer than regular cyno or gate-to-gate.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

mannyman
Relics United
#22 - 2014-09-18 18:47:12 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
You can actually use a BLOPS and T3 pair to explore hostile areas of space very effectively.


I totally agree, you can, and I do that currently too. But not as a single class ship. Thats where SoE vision of a battleship should come in, puts together 2 different types of ships into one that has a very unique combination we dont have.

With a fleet of different ships u can do all sort of things offcourse.

Im saying its a pitty the nestor SoE ships is so rarely used. There are some great bonuses but nothing as a combination the ship is good at.

Im saying give it a combination of functionality which is unique as one ship for people to gear into. Have fun in, and get killed or kill.
ashley Eoner
#23 - 2014-09-18 18:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
mannyman wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
mannyman wrote:
Did u ever try exploring in a black ops ?
The tank and cap is terrible, but it has its role, bridging and jumping. not battle.

My idea here with Nestor is to give it more unique role. Something that isnt there today. Ability for players with the right wallet and wish to explore in a ship with good drone dps and tank to run around in nullsec with their friend cynoing them around.

It gives nullsec people more visitors to shoot at, and highsec people the opportunity to get around if piloted right.

with 2 pilots running each nestor, they can fit cloak up if a threat arrives. This is down to piloting skills to survive, not the ship itself.

Carriers have their uniqueness in tank size and drones.

Nestor will be a BS with a jumpdrive, agile and fun to operate in nullsec.

It already has some unique roles. Your plan just kills those roles without introducing anything new or unique. I'd rather use other ships for those actions. Either because the nestor costs much more or just doesn't bring the capabilities of similar costing ships etc etc.

I'd rather use a t3 by miles. With the money I would of spent on a nestor I could pimp fit a t3. As stated earlier you're just creating a carrier with crap range and a fraction of power. While killing off the unique roles the nestor fulfills in highsec (and some lowsec/wh roams).


The idea can not be compared to a carrier. Not at all. The ship is way too small an too quick to align to be compared. A carrier is slow, warps slowly and is an easy target. These adjustments will make it way more useful. As you said its used mainly in highsec and some few low sec roams. Rarely in 0.0. I assume its more used in Wormhole as a repper boat. But I dont have statistics on that specifically.

The ship is currently not in line with SoE vision being exploration ships. adding a jumpdrive will.
Make it a close combat ship with drones and good enough dps to bite.
The nestor warps slightly faster then a carrier while having substantially less dps and flexibility in usage while costing the same. Sure it gets into warp faster if you're not using a prop mod on your carrier...

It's not more useful you just successfully killed most of the Nestor's current uses with those changes while adding nothing new that isn't already done better by other ships such as T3s and carriers for a cheaper or similar price.

Way more useful is incredibly wrong.


What's hilarious is you don't even know what the nestor is being used for "I assume it's more used for" meaning you have no real clue. It's got quite a few uses in highsec alone that would be rendered useless with your suggested change.



EDIT : I see nestors used on a nearly daily basis. You might as well be complaining that no one uses Garmurs or something...
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#24 - 2014-09-18 19:39:32 UTC
Gnosis, Astero, Stratios, and Covert Ops Frigates already do the job better where exploration is concerned.

If you are looking at getting in null sec, there are a myriad of ways to do it already... heck... I'm there.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2014-09-18 20:44:49 UTC
mannyman wrote:

The idea can not be compared to a carrier. Not at all. The ship is way too small an too quick to align to be compared. A carrier is slow, warps slowly and is an easy target. These adjustments will make it way more useful. As you said its used mainly in highsec and some few low sec roams. Rarely in 0.0. I assume its more used in Wormhole as a repper boat. But I dont have statistics on that specifically.

The ship is currently not in line with SoE vision being exploration ships. adding a jumpdrive will.
Make it a close combat ship with drones and good enough dps to bite.



Yes, it can. What you are describing is literally a short ranged carrier with a better align time. That's it.

A jump drive equipped ship with serious drone bonuses and a decent tank is a description of a carrier. Your ship has less range, less tank, and less DPS. It's just a really bad carrier.

Your ship is also a slow moving, slow warping easy target. It might have ~15s or so better align time, and all of 0.5AU more warp speed, but neither of those are worth proposing an entirely new ship around. Especially one that costs the same as a damn carrier in the first place.

There would be quite literally no reason to use your ship over a carrier, for anything.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-09-19 18:11:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
mannyman wrote:
Your right, the T3 with nullifed and cloak with mobile depot is doing some of this, but uses stargates. It still have to get through the 0.0--lowsec entry points and further. Also have to get through camps. Nestor with a fixed LY range for jumpdrive set to 7ly which is equivalent to BLOPS at jump drive cal lvl 4 gives a new mechanic to the game.

The ship doesnt need a cloak at all, the t2 improved cloak and prototype is good enough to hide, but this is piloting skills and not panick in situations that arrives inside the solar system.

With added drone dps, and removing the laser bonus, Nestor becomes something we havent seen before. It can still rep its buddy, just within closer range hence take down repping distance from 100% to 50% instead.

I havent seen Nestor in any bigger fleets, to big, too clumpsy and too expencive to sacrifice as a repper. Mabye in Wormholes where C5/C6 sites are done. But nowhere else. We got the great guardians and scimis already.

These proposals will change the solo mechanic, so we get a jump capable ship for very small gangs of people to explore 0.0. Do sites, have fun, and run around. Big enough fuel tank to run back and forth and around. 1400m3 fuel tank or something.

No, a cloaky T3 does all of this. A covert ops cloak and nullification subsystem is flat out better than a jump drive for evading people in low and null and equally good at blowing though gate camps. Also anything a small gang can do a large fleet can do as well.

You are right that the Nestor needs something. But I don't think it's a jump drive.
Iain Cariaba
#27 - 2014-09-19 18:47:23 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
mannyman wrote:
Your right, the T3 with nullifed and cloak with mobile depot is doing some of this, but uses stargates. It still have to get through the 0.0--lowsec entry points and further. Also have to get through camps. Nestor with a fixed LY range for jumpdrive set to 7ly which is equivalent to BLOPS at jump drive cal lvl 4 gives a new mechanic to the game.

The ship doesnt need a cloak at all, the t2 improved cloak and prototype is good enough to hide, but this is piloting skills and not panick in situations that arrives inside the solar system.

With added drone dps, and removing the laser bonus, Nestor becomes something we havent seen before. It can still rep its buddy, just within closer range hence take down repping distance from 100% to 50% instead.

I havent seen Nestor in any bigger fleets, to big, too clumpsy and too expencive to sacrifice as a repper. Mabye in Wormholes where C5/C6 sites are done. But nowhere else. We got the great guardians and scimis already.

These proposals will change the solo mechanic, so we get a jump capable ship for very small gangs of people to explore 0.0. Do sites, have fun, and run around. Big enough fuel tank to run back and forth and around. 1400m3 fuel tank or something.

No, a cloaky T3 does all of this. A covert ops cloak and nullification subsystem is flat out better than a jump drive for evading people in low and null and equally good at blowing though gate camps. Also anything a small gang can do a large fleet can do as well.

You are right that the Nestor needs something. But I don't think it's a jump drive.

What it needs is a role to fill. It has some good bonuses, but nothing about it really screams out as "this, this is what I'm good for."

Suggestion:
Lose analyzer strength, probe strength, laser range boost, armor rep amount boost
Give cap transmitter range boost, drone control range boost, ability to use Triage module.

Basically turn it into mini-carrier, just without refit ability or extra drones. Maybe increase drone damage boost. Be very useful in wormholes, maybe incursions too but since I don't do those I don't know.
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#28 - 2014-09-20 02:50:08 UTC
How does this tie to high sec players? Or are you saying Care Bears have no common sense and will blindly fly expensive ships into oblivion?

Is that my two cents or yours?
mannyman
Relics United
#29 - 2014-10-15 20:07:30 UTC
Now with power projection coming in 3 weeks, its a good idea to make this great ship a ship of exploration and keep it in line with black ops ship where it can jump but not bridge.
mannyman
Relics United
#30 - 2014-10-19 13:20:09 UTC
Yesterday CCP announced in Las Vegas that some new research with SoE is coming, will this be a Nestor tweak mabye ?
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
#31 - 2014-10-19 14:46:49 UTC
mannyman wrote:

Your right, the T3 with nullifed and cloak with mobile depot is doing some of this, but uses stargates. It still have to get through the 0.0--lowsec entry points and further. Also have to get through camps. Nestor with a fixed LY range for jumpdrive set to 7ly which is equivalent to BLOPS at jump drive cal lvl 4 gives a new mechanic to the game.



You do realise that some regional gates are so far appart, that you dont have any choise but to take the gate?

stystem A ---------------20LY----------------system b

going from A to B > must go trough gate
mannyman
Relics United
#32 - 2014-10-19 15:33:28 UTC
Trin Javidan wrote:
mannyman wrote:

Your right, the T3 with nullifed and cloak with mobile depot is doing some of this, but uses stargates. It still have to get through the 0.0--lowsec entry points and further. Also have to get through camps. Nestor with a fixed LY range for jumpdrive set to 7ly which is equivalent to BLOPS at jump drive cal lvl 4 gives a new mechanic to the game.



You do realise that some regional gates are so far appart, that you dont have any choise but to take the gate?

stystem A ---------------20LY----------------system b

going from A to B > must go trough gate




Offc, Im not saying it wont avoid all gates. The same with blops today. but, the benefit of sending a frigate out with a cyno to designated system, fire the cyno, jump in, cloak up until cyno goes down, then explore, run sites, do the pve or pvp stuff needed, then send frig out again to either continue travel or go back home. The large jumps have to be done through gates, like CCP wants us to.

Also with reduced repping range it can also work as a blops logi.
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
#33 - 2014-10-19 15:35:32 UTC
I am no fan of the Nestor as it is today. It is priced like a carrier but is flaccid by comparison.

But I disagree with the OP's proposal.

Dropping the laser bonus is fine with me, but compensating with drone damage? No, as what rightly pointed out, that's a carrier, just smaller.

I think the Nestor should be to exploration what the Orca or even Roqual is to mining.

To that end, leave the repair bonuses as they are now and the small SMB and leave the fitting service, but add a smallish fleet hangar - 2500 to 5000m3 based on the new volume changes to the materials found in exploration sites. Maybe a new link (and skill tree) that boosts hacking ability. Tractor beam range and speed bonus could be appropriate, too.

As to CovOps Cloak and/or Jump Drive. I could see either but not both. If the CovOps Cloak, add it and that's it.

However, going the Jump Drive route, I can see it using CovOps gear for this since it makes sense, but coild be too ideal and would also necessitate giving on or both of the other SoE ships the ability to light CovOps cynos (I see all three ships as being designed to work together).

To give an example, you have a group of three players, one in a Nestor the other two in either of the other SoE ships. The smaller SoE ship gates to the destination system and lights the CovOps cyno and bridges in itself and the other SoE ship. Once in system, the Nestor safes up and launches probes (still bonused), cloaks up and directs the other two to the sites. It can uncloak to bonus up the hacking/relic modules or remain cloaked and safe. The players run the sites, come back, deposit their loot, repair if necessary and move on to the next system.

Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
mannyman
Relics United
#34 - 2014-10-19 15:41:32 UTC
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:
I am no fan of the Nestor as it is today. It is priced like a carrier but is flaccid by comparison.

But I disagree with the OP's proposal.

Dropping the laser bonus is fine with me, but compensating with drone damage? No, as what rightly pointed out, that's a carrier, just smaller.

I think the Nestor should be to exploration what the Orca or even Roqual is to mining.

To that end, leave the repair bonuses as they are now and the small SMB and leave the fitting service, but add a smallish fleet hangar - 2500 to 5000m3 based on the new volume changes to the materials found in exploration sites. Maybe a new link (and skill tree) that boosts hacking ability. Tractor beam range and speed bonus could be appropriate, too.

As to CovOps Cloak and/or Jump Drive. I could see either but not both. If the CovOps Cloak, add it and that's it.

However, going the Jump Drive route, I can see it using CovOps gear for this since it makes sense, but coild be too ideal and would also necessitate giving on or both of the other SoE ships the ability to light CovOps cynos (I see all three ships as being designed to work together).

To give an example, you have a group of three players, one in a Nestor the other two in either of the other SoE ships. The smaller SoE ship gates to the destination system and lights the CovOps cyno and bridges in itself and the other SoE ship. Once in system, the Nestor safes up and launches probes (still bonused), cloaks up and directs the other two to the sites. It can uncloak to bonus up the hacking/relic modules or remain cloaked and safe. The players run the sites, come back, deposit their loot, repair if necessary and move on to the next system.



I like your logic. I totally agree, either cov ops or jump drive, not both. But I did suggest more drone damage as replacement for loosing highslot damage, as the Nestor today is doing many things, but not one thing good. A ship at that pricetag and the uniqueness should do a specific thing to the best level, and with SoE exploration focused, Nestor should be exploration too. Therefore my suggestion is jumpdrive and drone damage as to reduced repping range and loosing laser bonus. That way nestor does drones very well, and exploration very well, but the ability to bridge, I dont know, we have that role in black ops already.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#35 - 2014-10-19 16:07:35 UTC
Remove Turret Bonus make Rep range bonus 400-500%.
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
#36 - 2014-10-19 16:42:24 UTC
mannyman wrote:

I like your logic. I totally agree, either cov ops or jump drive, not both. But I did suggest more drone damage as replacement for loosing highslot damage, as the Nestor today is doing many things, but not one thing good. A ship at that pricetag and the uniqueness should do a specific thing to the best level, and with SoE exploration focused, Nestor should be exploration too. Therefore my suggestion is jumpdrive and drone damage as to reduced repping range and loosing laser bonus. That way nestor does drones very well, and exploration very well, but the ability to bridge, I dont know, we have that role in black ops already.



The Nestor would be unique and useful without bonusing the drones to compensate for the loss of the laser bonus.

The version I posted would make it so that small gangs can be almost completely self-sustaining in the middle of nowhere. If anything, I'd say in order to compensate for the loss of turret bonus I'd give a remote hull repair bonus of some kind (probably along the lines of faster repping).

I'd drop the bonuses for the turrets and the drones completely and shrink the drone bay by a lot. Then, a jump drive or CovOps cloak would make sense.

If, after losing those bonuses, it still needs something you could:

1 - Give a remote rep bonus of some kind to armor AND hull.
2 - Salvage drone bonus (speed and chance)
3 - Tractor beam bonus (not so useful with MTUs in the game)
4 - Salvager bonus
5 - Fit exploration-related gang links

Remember, too, that in the scenario I posted, the Nestor would be the only ship in the gang with a probe launcher, freeing up a high slot in each or it's cohorts. There's some extra firepower right there.

So...a battleship that has ship fitting service, small SMA, small fleet hangar, scanning bonus, remote rep bonus and a couple of the abilities I just listed PLUS either a CovOps Cloak or Jump Drive and you have one heck of a unique and useful ship!

Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2014-10-19 18:01:02 UTC
We use nestors in pvp. In which we mean a brick tanked drone boat that sits inside a carrier untill it jumps through a WH then gets dropped to allow said carrier to refit so it can live. Dam more reliable than a Depot

Apart from that its garbage (unless used in an ISBoxer set up)

So Much Space
ashley Eoner
#38 - 2014-10-19 18:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Faren Shalni wrote:
We use nestors in pvp. In which we mean a brick tanked drone boat that sits inside a carrier untill it jumps through a WH then gets dropped to allow said carrier to refit so it can live. Dam more reliable than a Depot

Apart from that its garbage (unless used in an ISBoxer set up)

That's you opinion and based on the people I've seen using them in highsec and other places there are people with vastly different opinions. Not a surprise though as you're perspective is severely limited and a carrier is a far better repper in those cases. Adding a jump drive and the other suggestions in here would just make it worse or change nothing.

I've used mine in highsec for anti-gank repping, Vanguards and a few other situations that don't require long distance repping. The big issues is the lack of range on the reppers.

I've also used one in a lowsec roam before but anything beyond that it pales compared to a carrier.


I thought the changes suggested in this thread were bad but the jump drive changes make the ideas in here look even worse..
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