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Why Aren't More People In W-Space?

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stup idity
#101 - 2014-10-17 07:34:11 UTC  |  Edited by: stup idity
Trinkets friend wrote:

The problem here, and the point of mine which you missed, is not about ISK/hr. it's about ISK/day per wormhole. To repeat myself, ad nauseum, if for example a C4 site is worth 80M ISK and you get 2 per day your hole generates 160M ISK per day. Full stop. Every month, therefore, a C4 is worth 4.8 billion ISK, plus PI. That is nigh on 5 toons worth of PLEX, or 2.5 meatbods of residents assuming your income goes towards PLEX.

Therefore, for group sizes above 5, any C4 wormhole is unsustainable (plus or minus PI, but assume 300M a month you push it out to 10 residents). Minus expenses (fuel, ships).


I like this part of your post. One thing I like to add: PI alone can PLEX an account with relatively low skill and time investment if all three characters are used and the planets aren't totally ****.


Trinkets friend wrote:

True, people can farm their statics, but this becomes an equation of the total pool of C4 wormholes. Given 550 C4's and 2.5 stable residents per wormhole, C4's can (plus or minus PI, mining, gassing, data and relic income) support a total of 1375 accounts via PLEX. That's your hard upper limit, without the residents being on subscription. So assume another 1375 subbed accounts and you have a population of 5 toons per wormhole.


And here I disagree. The theoretical upper limit of daily isk gain in a c4 (and any other class) is as high as 'home sites you can run undisturbed per day' * 'value of site'. The reason is pretty simple: each site that is finished will respawn shortly after in your constellation. (wh-systems)

Permanent farming of an entire constellation is not very realistic, of course. Nevertheless, the achievable income increases with more actively farning people and therefore the cap of sustainable accounts per system can only be determined on the (perceived) status quo of your constellation and cannot be projected on other areas of c4-space or other activity levels.

I am the Herald of all beings that are me.
Fehyd Rautha
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2014-10-17 07:54:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Fehyd Rautha
As someone who recently made the decisions to permanently move in to WHs, I'll write my findings. Before moving in, I only did some day tripping, lower class farming, ... I permanently moved in to WH because I like their 'unforgiving' nature. I like how it requires a certain amount of independence and I also really dislike the current null meta. The Cap/Super play style is just not my thing. I much more enjoy smaller gang engagements.

Points made previously;

Quote:
Reasons are well known :
1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class
2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp
3- Nothing can be done solo
4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory)
5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know)
( EDIT : And i forgot the discipline needed, lots of player can't bear that)


- It's true that running incursions is better isk and much more relaxing than farming lower class WHs. In our C6, we make far more isk/hr running the sites, but they are a limited resources where as incursions can be run all day long really. I can make a lot more cash in High sec, than in j-space, simply because I can run incursions pretty much semi-AFK, all day long.
- Hyperion has left me and I think the larger groups largely unaffected. If anything, we've found a fair bit of content using the frig holes. Rolling is about the same. I can see how it's harder for the small corps though.
- I used to do the lower class holes solo, works fine. Never lost a ship. It's much more demanding than ie. incursions though. To be honest, EVE should be played with other players.
- This is debatable. Lower class can definitely be done with anything. It is true that the more settled high class WH corps fly around in t3s. I suppose this can be disheartening when your own cruiser and BC fleet keeps running in to superior T3 fleets. On the other hand, skilling for t3s doesn't take that long and people can contribute to fleets in other ships too, ie. logi, ewar, tackle, scanning, ...
- It is true that WH can be a bit of a daunting project for new players. There is much to learn. Scanning can be a challange, navigating wormholes can be tricky. Personally, I think this is up to us, the community. Joining an established corp can make this process a lot easier, as there's settled people who can answer your questions. That said, once everything was done, I found it quite easy to get in replacements, navigate the chains, make round trips to trade hubs to restock on ammo, paste, ...

Quote:
All this makes me wonder, maybe the question is "What is worth fighting over in w-space?" What are we fighting over?

I just fight for fun. I don't really look to gain anything. I play and get in to fights for my enjoyment. I like the PVP aspect of EVE. For me this is entertainment, if you really want to boil it down to the basics.

Personally, I fund my PvP with sites. I don't PvE often just enough to replace losses. Saving up billions in liquid cash doesn't really appeal to me. I have ships, I have a bunch of replacements and that's just good for me. :P
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#103 - 2014-10-17 07:55:21 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Not a rant Senn. You have a lot of good talking points.

Obil Que wrote:
All this makes me wonder, maybe the question is "What is worth fighting over in w-space?"

Take a couple common understandings

1. Ganks in wormhole space, while entertaining is sub-optimal PvP experpience for all involved
2. Evictions in wormhole space are generally few and far between (listen to the latest DtP for commentary on this)
3. PvP engagements can end in two fleets wanting the other to jump into them with neither wanting to give this advantage. How often is this the case?
4. There is more than enough PvE sites for corps to run to fill their coffers. Do PvP groups do this typically to fund themselves or are PvP corps and members filling their wallets with alt activities not related to w-space?

What are we fighting over?

We're not fighting over sites. It's hard to say if this was ever an intent of wormhole space but the reality is they are not scarce resources to be fought over.

We're not fighting over systems. More than enough to go around and rarely will two groups desire the same space.

Are people fighting just to fight? Is this as any kind of a sustainable effort? Fights cost ISK to one or both sides. ISK that has to be replaced. Are wormhole members commonly making their ISK outside of wormholes? Sure, you have the few dedicated w-space residents that scout and scan and look. It is commonly thought that PvP fleets are then waiting for the ping, running on alts, out of game, simply there to engage and disappear. I have admittedly not lived in a PvP corp so I would love to hear if this is not the case. I would guess that a smaller PvP corp where the gang or fleet size is most active members, it isn't. But for a corp of a size where you reach the point where the ISK cannot support the corp, are they naturally drawn then out of w-space, on alt characters, doing other things to make ISK instead of operating in w-space thus adding to the emptiness?

Is an answer to the OP question then that we need something w-space related to fight over and what would that look like?


This is my major concern. Ownership of a wormhole means basically nothing, but they can't really give wormholes a value without regiggering alot of things.

Occupancy based wormhole site spawns?

Better Site Spawns?

Honestly, there needs to be loot. People do nullsec for isk and loot. Now we have the isk, but we have no loot. We all play videogames (mmo's specifically) for two things. One is to kill each other, and the second is to get phat lewt. Highsec has it with missions, lowsec has it with faction warfare and lp stores, nullsec has it with officer sites, and ded's, wormholes...

They have just started with a few Ghost Sites, and future Nullsec Data/Relic sites.

There need to be either the option for module drops from the end of running a combat site, or the option for items to build wormhole equipment dropping out of sites.

You create a goldrush, and you'll have people flying in.


You do know that t3s can only be produced from the salvage you get from sleepers right? Theyre the definition of wormhole equipment.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#104 - 2014-10-17 09:31:50 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:

You do know that t3s can only be produced from the salvage you get from sleepers right? Theyre the definition of wormhole equipment.


But I think you agree that making profit from building a T3 from sleeper salvage is perhaps not quite as accessible as say, building a Gila from a BPC that dropped from a site you ran in 8 minutes.
Aladar Dangerface
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2014-10-17 10:19:02 UTC
I like pancakes...................wait what were we talking about?

I don't need twitter. I'm already following you.
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#106 - 2014-10-17 11:01:37 UTC
Phooey to not enough activity in w-space. We just got in a proper fight with Ixtab, although losses were minimal. Saw NoHo scouting through, but was unable to engage. Tried to get a fight with Dropbears and as we were just about to engage, Exit Strategy engaged them instead with a more impressive fleet than we could do anything but whelp against.

The chain was very active tonight. See you all tomorrow.

o/
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#107 - 2014-10-17 12:35:01 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Stuff and things


I think you have got it all wrong here because you don't think past proximal evidence and look at systematics.

Yes, there's "mountains" of ISK in wormholes. I assume you are considering a bunch of towers in an occupied system as constituting these alleged "mountains"or the fact people have hangars stocked with T3's.


No. I was referring to the dirty PvE sites that proliferate w-space, untouched. You missed my point entirely and as stup idity pointed out and which you dismiss through some questionable equations is that the total value of w-space is not based on 2 spawns per week per system (factoring into your 2.5 meatbods per hole). This simply isn't based in reality. There is no knowledge of exactly how many sites there are in the entirety of w-space. The "mountains" of ISK I was referring to are those unoccupied systems that collect sites like flotsam, the systems where the dirty carebears who don't even run combat sites and simply use w-space for reaction towers and the like collect anoms. I see them all the time while out in space.

Trinkets friend wrote:
To further elaborate - if you clean your home hole, you get nothing more no matter how much effort you put in, so you log or leave (or, if a PVPer, hunt). in k-space, you can bang out missions day in and day out at a ISK/hr rate, etc. Every hour you devote to gaming rewards you. Not so in w-space. Very swftly, every hour you play begins making you nothing. So people leave.


This is precisely the current thought process I referred to originally. That once you clear your home or maybe don't see X in your static, you are done. Why? Why is not the attitude to jump through those chains to find more? Why can't a corp range far and wide in a fleet capable of collecting the "mountains of ISK" in PvE sites in PvP capable ships? Would this not, if applied to more corporations, make for a more active w-space? Wouldn't this then be something to drive conflict because it seems to me that w-space doesn't really have anything to fight over...

Trinkets friend wrote:
Second point, you are clearly pained in the buttocks about losing PVE ships in wormhole space. Yes, i checked you on zkilllboard.


Again. no. Thank you though for perpetuating the idea through the insinuation behind it that l33t PvP is the only game in town and someone who does PvE is somehow less of a worthy EVE player. It is the attitude that in many ways keeps new corporations, like mine, from ever wanting to enter w-space. I've operated this corp for over a year in w-space. I've taken great pride in being a corp that is different than that view, that welcomes new players and introduces them to w-space, that is a home for players who cannot devote hours and hours to gameplay such as burning someone out of their hole 23/7 for three days (I do enjoy reading about things like this on your blog, however, it is a very different side of EVE than I can play). As Senn said, EVE is a people game and I very much enjoy the style we play and the people I get to play with. It may look then to you as butthurt carebears. So be it. That attitude though of "cowering bears" applied to any group that 1) enjoys PvE because it is accessible content to their limited play 2) cannot bring a "gudfight" against a larger more organized group is part of what keeps smaller organizations out of w-space altogether, in my opinion.

Trinkets friend wrote:
Your accusation that PVP pilots spend time looking for PVE pilots to attack is erroneous, a falsity based on your own experiences. Personally, as Marlona Sky's fat goateed w-space cousin, I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get PVP pilots to attack my Nereus, and every so often it works.

I also spend inordinate amounts of time trying to find PVE characters with buds, to tackle and troll out the buds. Often this is done via tackling T3's in my Nereus, hotdrop style. Or tackling hulks in my Nereus. Or anything, really. I attack PVE ships in my hauler to get them to fight back.

Then, of course, my mates jump in and shoot the foes. It's called a Nereus And Switch. And it works.


I love your Nereus. It is sitting in my EFT and I've highlighted it to my corp from the day I saw it on your blog. My point wasn't at all that PvE corps don't exist, that "cowering carebears" aren't based in reality. Of course they are, some corporations are like that. Some corporations also simply can't compete at your Nereus and Switch level either when the switch happens. My point was that maybe w-space would be a better place if the PvE corp had a place in the PvP corp towards a future w-space where those were less of separate actions and more of a single entity. Where the norm wasn't either "my sleeper Domi" or "my T3 blob" but something in between (as I mentioned referencing TXGsync) that had a different dynamic to w-space instead of us and them...maybe that's Obil Que's ideal world...
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#108 - 2014-10-17 14:37:38 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:



You do know that t3s can only be produced from the salvage you get from sleepers right? Theyre the definition of wormhole equipment.


Its the only thing that can be made out of salvage. You make either a T3, or a subsystem. That's it.

Modules? Nope
Rigs? Nope
Ammo? Nope
Scripts? Nope
Probes? Nope
Drugs? Nope
Pos Equipment? Nope
Anything besides a T3 cruiser? Nope.

If there was more "variation" on what you could potentially build and use with Salvage from Sleepers, then yes salvage would go up, blueloot would rise, etc etc.

Right now you build T3's, and nothing else.

Yaay!!!!
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#109 - 2014-10-17 14:43:27 UTC
Good thing T3s, with all their advantages, skill reqs etc. are this lucrative to build. Oh wait.
350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2014-10-17 15:49:34 UTC
For a group of player that complain heartily about nullbears, there sure is a lot of talk in this thread about how much money you can make and when you can do it.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
Lakshata Chawla
State War Academy
Caldari State
#111 - 2014-10-17 17:48:04 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Good thing T3s, with all their advantages, skill reqs etc. are this lucrative to build. Oh wait.


And then you cant even assemble then in Wspace.
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#112 - 2014-10-17 21:40:13 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:

You do know that t3s can only be produced from the salvage you get from sleepers right? Theyre the definition of wormhole equipment.


But I think you agree that making profit from building a T3 from sleeper salvage is perhaps not quite as accessible as say, building a Gila from a BPC that dropped from a site you ran in 8 minutes.



Why should a highly specialized and advanced product be as accessible as t1 gear? Just like everything in wh's, you need to put in some extra effort.

I build t3's on the side and i can assure i can make more building them than any Gila, mostly because t3 bpcs rarely cost me more than 1 million isk :P

Maybe if you guys stop expecting everything to pump isk into your wallet as soon as you pick it up you will be a lot happier in whs. If you lot want to get faction bpc drops that take 1 hour to skill to build i recommend you head to Null, where you can join your instant gratification buddies.
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#113 - 2014-10-17 21:46:41 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:



You do know that t3s can only be produced from the salvage you get from sleepers right? Theyre the definition of wormhole equipment.


Its the only thing that can be made out of salvage. You make either a T3, or a subsystem. That's it.

Modules? Nope
Rigs? Nope
Ammo? Nope
Scripts? Nope
Probes? Nope
Drugs? Nope
Pos Equipment? Nope
Anything besides a T3 cruiser? Nope.

If there was more "variation" on what you could potentially build and use with Salvage from Sleepers, then yes salvage would go up, blueloot would rise, etc etc.

Right now you build T3's, and nothing else.


Yes you can only build t3's, its not like they're the most powerful ship that has stats that can only be beaten by capital ships, that has massive demand and little supply. If your just looking to get salvage prices up id assume your not building them...try building a few then complain about not getting much isk.

Also why the hell would blue loot go up? Blue loot is not used in any construction, its sold directly to npcs...i highly doubt that will ever change.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#114 - 2014-10-17 23:44:57 UTC
T3 production is a pain in the butt. You need gases, metals to make metallofullerenes. You need ribbons. You need minerals. You make precorsor components, which make second stage components, etc etc and blah blah blah.

Gila BPC's drop from some stupid rat which takes no effort to kill, or a can which is essentially undefended in a data site, you get 6 minerals and can build it anywhere. You can't research it, true, but you don't need to.

Stratios BPC's you go molest some highsec missions for a few hours, and lets be honest, you can blitz most missions quite efficiently. You save up your LP's and the Sisters of EVE just give the BPC to you. Add minerals, bingo. Or they now drop from drone complexes, if you bother doing them.

So, yes, you can make money from T3 producton. But which stage of T3 production? Does anyone do all stages of T3 production, and if so, is the effort and value-add worth it? Do you do all stages, from blapping red crosses and huffing farts, to reacting metallofullerenes, blowing IQ on the minigame in data sites to get the relic components to feed into research to make the blueprints, to cook the subsystems?

I doubt it.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#115 - 2014-10-18 06:40:10 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
T3 production is a pain in the butt. You need gases, metals to make metallofullerenes. You need ribbons. You need minerals. You make precorsor components, which make second stage components, etc etc and blah blah blah.

Gila BPC's drop from some stupid rat which takes no effort to kill, or a can which is essentially undefended in a data site, you get 6 minerals and can build it anywhere. You can't research it, true, but you don't need to.

Stratios BPC's you go molest some highsec missions for a few hours, and lets be honest, you can blitz most missions quite efficiently. You save up your LP's and the Sisters of EVE just give the BPC to you. Add minerals, bingo. Or they now drop from drone complexes, if you bother doing them.

So, yes, you can make money from T3 producton. But which stage of T3 production? Does anyone do all stages of T3 production, and if so, is the effort and value-add worth it? Do you do all stages, from blapping red crosses and huffing farts, to reacting metallofullerenes, blowing IQ on the minigame in data sites to get the relic components to feed into research to make the blueprints, to cook the subsystems?

I doubt it.


Admittedly i dont gather every single material neccesary for the t3 production myself or via my corp members, i tend to buy the various relic off the market, and i buy all the low end gasses needed for my reaction POS...simply because they are sold so cheap compared to the effort.

However every other material is either gathered by myself or my corp, its not like it takes much to build each t3 hull/subsystem. We on average get enough materials to build 4 Proteus and subsystem with every daytrip we take, thats 1.2 bil a day with plenty of extra ribbons and blue loot to push us further on the iskies front (usually have 4 guys take the plunge each time, so 300 mil each on Proteus alone). Yes the faction bpcs dropped in sites can outpace that if your lucky and get many drops in a row, and good on you if you manage that.

But i doubt it.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#116 - 2014-10-18 07:24:35 UTC
"Deos not take much to build a T3", and you even casually mention a reaction POS, gas hauling but omit all references to reverse engineering and skills. Seriously dude, it's in no way even remotely comparable to building a faction ship from a BPC.
Brazilian Dream
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2014-10-18 09:24:52 UTC
So profitable that everybody wants to do it :S
Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2014-10-18 10:54:51 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:

However every other material is either gathered by myself or my corp, its not like it takes much to build each t3 hull/subsystem. We on average get enough materials to build 4 Proteus and subsystem with every daytrip we take, thats 1.2 bil a day with plenty of extra ribbons and blue loot to push us further on the iskies front (usually have 4 guys take the plunge each time, so 300 mil each on Proteus alone). Yes the faction bpcs dropped in sites can outpace that if your lucky and get many drops in a row, and good on you if you manage that.

But i doubt it.


so you day trip into system for 1.2 bil a day split between 4 characters? if so then wouldn't it be 300mil per day per character, presumably this is a bit longer as making t3 stuff will take a few days to prep etc... which on paper doesn't look too bad i guess, but its not exactly amazing.

of course within that same time frame in hisec incursions u would have made that isk in 3hrs with virtually no risk, and you can make that in null for marginally more risk and little to no time investment in either k-space scenario.

its not about instant gratification, its about making a game environment that is more fairly balanced considering the time, and isk investment you have to make to live in / enter wspace (unless u like to lose as many t3s as u build...). i know id rather be out shooting someone, than figuring out how much gas i have and whether or not i need to find a k-space exit to do x or y logi...
Imuji
Swamphole Holdings
Swamphole
#119 - 2014-10-18 11:45:27 UTC
Irya Boone wrote:
because Wh suppose to be a place to live in , but just pass through , settle your campement , farm , make money , an go another place.

But some players thought : hell no let's stay in this WHsystem.

This is why so few live in WH ... and also because living in WH means risk of loosing EVRYTHING if your main POS get blapped


Which is why you don't have one single POS, and you manage your roles and assets well.
What's the point of bringing 20b worth of stuff into a WH if you use only 5b of it.
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#120 - 2014-10-18 12:54:23 UTC
Jez Amatin wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:

However every other material is either gathered by myself or my corp, its not like it takes much to build each t3 hull/subsystem. We on average get enough materials to build 4 Proteus and subsystem with every daytrip we take, thats 1.2 bil a day with plenty of extra ribbons and blue loot to push us further on the iskies front (usually have 4 guys take the plunge each time, so 300 mil each on Proteus alone). Yes the faction bpcs dropped in sites can outpace that if your lucky and get many drops in a row, and good on you if you manage that.

But i doubt it.


so you day trip into system for 1.2 bil a day split between 4 characters? if so then wouldn't it be 300mil per day per character, presumably this is a bit longer as making t3 stuff will take a few days to prep etc... which on paper doesn't look too bad i guess, but its not exactly amazing.

of course within that same time frame in hisec incursions u would have made that isk in 3hrs with virtually no risk, and you can make that in null for marginally more risk and little to no time investment in either k-space scenario.

its not about instant gratification, its about making a game environment that is more fairly balanced considering the time, and isk investment you have to make to live in / enter wspace (unless u like to lose as many t3s as u build...). i know id rather be out shooting someone, than figuring out how much gas i have and whether or not i need to find a k-space exit to do x or y logi...


I did state in my above post that each player makes 300 mil from the Proteus construction. not to mention the extra 100 mil or so per day in excess loot. Keep in mind my corp is a crappy indie corp barely capable of flying bc's reliably...imagine what a real corp can do, at least 3 times as much. I build my proteus close enough to within a day, so meh on the prep time.

Hisec incursions are out of wack, i wont debate that, but in terms of what my lot do it seems fair, were risking about 200 mil worth of ships to make 1.2 bil+ in 8 hours, incursion runners have to move their crap, deal with drama, get into a fleet and trust some strangers to protect their blingy pirate ships, to make the same isk, it seems wh spelunking is easier.

The advantage of whs is you can make your pvp isk easily, without kissing some nullsec alliances, or incursion fcs ass, that to me is worth the extra "effort"

Heres an idea, if you lot cant deal with the time/effort associated with wormholes, maybe you shouldnt come to them, it means more room for people like me, who stick with it instead of whinging about not enough isk/hour.