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Bumping mechanics revision

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2014-10-17 20:51:49 UTC
admiral root wrote:
afkalt wrote:
My opinion is a bump should require a lock (thus stopping 4-4 undock being a train wreck) and give a suspect flag if there is not already a limited engagement. Hobo-point use remains intact, some risk attached to bumping ensues.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there is no risk to bumping. Eve is all about risk, I should not be able to ransom people by means of bumping when they have no recourse which is appropriate to the level of risk I am accepting (which is zero).

Bumping as a mechanic is fine, people taking on zero risk for it.....that's right up there with the old neutral RR imo.


Webbing a ship into warp. It's a thing, and it takes the risk for freighter pilots down to almost zero.


Absolutely and as I said I'm not saying I take issue with either the mechanic itself or the mitigation - what is wrong is the level of risk of the bumper is unacceptably low.

A direct PvP action should not be 100% risk free, it currently is.

How appropriate risk is attached is up to others and ultimately CCP, but to my mind it needs to be attached.


To reuse my last example, neutral RR was defended to the death by many - risk free direct combat influence - that was changed and so should this be.
Yolandar
CSR Strategic Reserves
Citizen's Star Republic
#82 - 2014-10-17 22:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Yolandar
Sigras wrote:
Yolandar wrote:
Wrong.
Targeting a ship, even passively, stops/prevents safe logoff.

Try it.

I didnt say safe log off did i? I said disconnecting IE closing your client... try it

If you havent been aggressed yet you disappear 60 seconds after disconnecting nomatter what.


Um, yes you clearly said
Sigras wrote:

If you log off before they give you aggression timer, you disappear in 60 seconds regardless of what they do to you after you log off.

Targeting and bumping do not give you aggression timers so it doesnt matter what the "safe logoff" mechanic does, you can disconnect and be safe no problem.


*snip (i stand corrected) *

One more time:
Targeting is non-aggessive, and should NOT stop a safe logoff.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#83 - 2014-10-17 22:33:02 UTC
Yolandar wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Yolandar wrote:
Wrong.
Targeting a ship, even passively, stops/prevents safe logoff.

Try it.

I didnt say safe log off did i? I said disconnecting IE closing your client... try it

If you havent been aggressed yet you disappear 60 seconds after disconnecting nomatter what.


Um, yes you clearly said
Sigras wrote:

If you log off before they give you aggression timer, you disappear in 60 seconds regardless of what they do to you after you log off.

Targeting and bumping do not give you aggression timers so it doesnt matter what the "safe logoff" mechanic does, you can disconnect and be safe no problem.


A bumper will keep you bumped if you emergency log, you have to be align to warp out.
Try it.

One more time:
Targeting is non-aggessive, and should NOT stop a safe logoff.


Logging out of the game should not be a valid tactic to avoid pvp.
Iain Cariaba
#84 - 2014-10-17 22:39:03 UTC
One more time.
There are more ways to avoid getting bumped than there are really effective ships for bumping. Your either inability or unwillingness to perform these actions is not the fault of the bumper.

One more time.
If you jump into a system where known gankers are in local, it is no one's fault but your own that you get ganked. You made the choice to jump into a hostile area.

Three years of freighter alt. Never lost a freighter, never been bumped. Whatever you're doing wrong to get ganked, try not doing that before asking for nerfs.
Yolandar
CSR Strategic Reserves
Citizen's Star Republic
#85 - 2014-10-18 00:54:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Logging out of the game should not be a valid tactic to avoid pvp.


Then shoot me. Sh*t or get off the pot!

My pvp starts when I log in, seems aright it ends when I log off.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#86 - 2014-10-18 01:01:42 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
One more time.
There are more ways to avoid getting bumped than there are really effective ships for bumping. Your either inability or unwillingness to perform these actions is not the fault of the bumper.

One more time.
If you jump into a system where known gankers are in local, it is no one's fault but your own that you get ganked. You made the choice to jump into a hostile area.

Three years of freighter alt. Never lost a freighter, never been bumped. Whatever you're doing wrong to get ganked, try not doing that before asking for nerfs.



Your argument doesnt hold much water considering your a said alt....and that alt either with the one your posting or not is part of the side that would naturallybe against the safe log off mechanic working as it should.
Sorry to pipe in here, but your allied with the Goons/CODE. the debate im seeing about the safe log off would not be a nerf.....but a fix for an unagressed person to use as it should be....and there fore a buff. Please keep your propaganda at the door because anybody with a brain or watching can se you for what you are.

I stil stand on my statement though that until something is worked out as a true counter to non-agressive activity that peeps just need to take the fight to them and escort their stuff, dont use AP.
Sigras
Conglomo
#87 - 2014-10-18 05:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Yolandar wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Yolandar wrote:
Wrong.
Targeting a ship, even passively, stops/prevents safe logoff.

Try it.

I didnt say safe log off did i? I said disconnecting IE closing your client... try it

If you havent been aggressed yet you disappear 60 seconds after disconnecting nomatter what.


Um, yes you clearly said
Sigras wrote:
If you log off before they give you aggression timer, you disappear in 60 seconds regardless of what they do to you after you log off.

Targeting and bumping do not give you aggression timers so it doesnt matter what the "safe logoff" mechanic does, you can disconnect and be safe no problem.


A bumper will keep you bumped if you emergency log, you have to be align to warp out.
Try it.

One more time:
Targeting is non-aggessive, and should NOT stop a safe logoff.

are you intentionally being stupid? let me try this one more time, and Ill try to use small words so you cant possibly misunderstand me...

Your ship does not need to emergency warp off to disappear. If you're being bumped and you disconnect, your ship disappears 60 seconds later whether or not you've warped off... If you havent warped off you just disappear *poof* gone in front of everyone elses eyes.

Once you disconnect there is NOTHING the opponent can do to prevent you from disappearing unless you were aggressed BEFORE disconnecting.

Methods of disconnecting include but are not limited to:
1. closing the eve window
2. hitting Alt + F4
3. Hitting Esc and clicking on "close game"
4. disabling the NIC on your computer
5. pulling the Ethernet cable out of the back of your computer
**NOTE YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO USE THE SAFE LOG OFF FEATURE TO MAKE THE ABOVE EFFECTS HAPPEN**

Have I made myself clear enough? Nod your head if you're still with me...
Iain Cariaba
#88 - 2014-10-18 05:54:17 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
One more time.
There are more ways to avoid getting bumped than there are really effective ships for bumping. Your either inability or unwillingness to perform these actions is not the fault of the bumper.

One more time.
If you jump into a system where known gankers are in local, it is no one's fault but your own that you get ganked. You made the choice to jump into a hostile area.

Three years of freighter alt. Never lost a freighter, never been bumped. Whatever you're doing wrong to get ganked, try not doing that before asking for nerfs.



Your argument doesnt hold much water considering your a said alt....and that alt either with the one your posting or not is part of the side that would naturallybe against the safe log off mechanic working as it should.
Sorry to pipe in here, but your allied with the Goons/CODE. the debate im seeing about the safe log off would not be a nerf.....but a fix for an unagressed person to use as it should be....and there fore a buff. Please keep your propaganda at the door because anybody with a brain or watching can se you for what you are.

I stil stand on my statement though that until something is worked out as a true counter to non-agressive activity that peeps just need to take the fight to them and escort their stuff, dont use AP.

First off, this is my main, always has been. Oh look, I have extensive employment history, so obviously not a forum alt.

I must admit, it was obviously foolish of me to think that, maybe just this once, someone might listen to my explanation of how taking personal ****ing responsability for your own safety might, just possibly, be a good idea. Nope, I rent from CFC, and therefore don't have to worry at all about wartargets, nor am I as valid a target for CODE. as any other player. Oh, and because of my alliance with goons/code, I guess my hauler alt isn't in NPC corp, thereby afforded zero protection. Put your observations about me in one hand and **** in the other, see which one has more substance.

Read the entire thread. This is just one more in a long line of butthurt threads trying to get bumping nerfed.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#89 - 2014-10-18 07:42:56 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
One more time.
There are more ways to avoid getting bumped than there are really effective ships for bumping. Your either inability or unwillingness to perform these actions is not the fault of the bumper.

One more time.
If you jump into a system where known gankers are in local, it is no one's fault but your own that you get ganked. You made the choice to jump into a hostile area.

Three years of freighter alt. Never lost a freighter, never been bumped. Whatever you're doing wrong to get ganked, try not doing that before asking for nerfs.



Your argument doesnt hold much water considering your a said alt....and that alt either with the one your posting or not is part of the side that would naturallybe against the safe log off mechanic working as it should.
Sorry to pipe in here, but your allied with the Goons/CODE. the debate im seeing about the safe log off would not be a nerf.....but a fix for an unagressed person to use as it should be....and there fore a buff. Please keep your propaganda at the door because anybody with a brain or watching can se you for what you are.

I stil stand on my statement though that until something is worked out as a true counter to non-agressive activity that peeps just need to take the fight to them and escort their stuff, dont use AP.
TBH the idea that because he is somehow linked with goons/Code means what he says is wrong, doesn't hold much water either. It rather a poor argument to make, in an attempt to refute what he has said.

Let me point out that I too have a freighter alt, but mine just so happens to be in a corp. It's in a corp so that it could be in the Alliance at the time. (not goons/code)
In all the time I used said alt with either a blockade runner, (which was always fit for full cargo) or a freighter, I never once was bumped or lost one of those ships. This was also pre the fitting change on freighters.

Why is this? Well I used my friends or my own scout and didn't put myself into bad situations. Even though each journey would eventually ended in low sec.

Lenestar Tinsolis wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Webbing a ship into warp. It's a thing, and it takes the risk for freighter pilots down to almost zero.


"Stop complaining about the broken speakers on your phone and use your headset."
But they are not broken, that's the point you're missing.

It's more that we are on a platform waiting to board a train. You may get away with using the speakers on your phone at that point. But as soon as you enter the train, don't be surprised if you are asked to turn them off and use your headset. Your refusal, will end in your removal from the train.

It's the same with freighting alone. You may get away with it, while in high end security space. But as soon as you enter certain hot spots in high sec, don't be surprised if you start to be bumped. Your refusal to use the tools and options provided, may result in the removal of your ship and it's contents. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#90 - 2014-10-18 08:23:06 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Absolutely and as I said I'm not saying I take issue with either the mechanic itself or the mitigation - what is wrong is the level of risk of the bumper is unacceptably low.


An almost 100% chance of the target getting away is too low a risk for the bumper? Seriously?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#91 - 2014-10-18 08:52:18 UTC
How about just dump the capsuleer aggression timer from ships which are not capable of aquiring one? You know, a shuttle cannot cause that flag, hence is should be immune from the flag.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2014-10-18 09:53:55 UTC
admiral root wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Absolutely and as I said I'm not saying I take issue with either the mechanic itself or the mitigation - what is wrong is the level of risk of the bumper is unacceptably low.


An almost 100% chance of the target getting away is too low a risk for the bumper? Seriously?


I assume you're talking about webbing - all counters to bumping apply to webbing too. Bet those webbing frigs aren't hard to volley with a throwaway thrasher. That is an aside - the risk of something getting away is not a risk in game terms. The risk of ship loss is.

My point remains, I can bump people all around the place and I have the full protection of concord behind me - there's as close to no risk to me as is possible in the game - yet I am taking direct PvP action against another hull.

The bumper NEVER risks an asset to a material degree whilst posing a direct threat to other ships and being able to freely engage others whilst never being open to a fight.

If you want to stop someone warping, move their ship large distances without content - you should need to flag up like everyone else.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#93 - 2014-10-18 10:19:00 UTC
You can volley machariels with throwaway tornados, too.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2014-10-18 10:39:19 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
It's fine, I've said my piece. I think what is essentially zero risk is unacceptable and you do not. Let's move on.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#95 - 2014-10-18 10:42:43 UTC
No, I dispute that there's zero risk in the first place.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Lugh Crow-Slave
#96 - 2014-10-18 10:48:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Logging out of the game should not be a valid tactic to avoid pvp.


logging out is and should be the only way to avoid pvp

however it should't be used to get out of a pvp situation

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lenestar Tinsolis
Doomheim
#97 - 2014-10-18 16:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenestar Tinsolis
Galphii (in the thread OP) wrote:
Here's my idea: When you bump into another ship while a propulsion mod is active, you gain a suspect flag.

Everybody Else wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Because you want to autopilot your freighter whilst working? . . . So he doesn't want to use escort friends, even though he is aware of the benefit. But we should defend the bumping tactic and it's use? Bearing in mind the gankers do use friends and this is an MMO. . . . It's the same with freighting alone. You may get away with it, while in high end security space. But as soon as you enter certain hot spots in high sec, don't be surprised if you start to be bumped. Your refusal to use the tools and options provided, may result in the removal of your ship and it's contents.

Max Deveron wrote:
If your stuff is corp assets or alliance.....that group should be willing to make sure the cargo reaches its destination.....again, owner....behooves them to escort it

admiral root wrote:
The antics of bumpers / gankers promote the use of escorts, but people are stubborn, stupid, lazy, anti-social or some combination thereof . . . You can volley machariels with throwaway tornados, too.


All of you people recommending we use escorts and not fly solo (I'm looking at you, Mag's), are simply being obtuse. The proposed change only helps those using escorts! Solo freighters can't shoot at any targets, flagged or otherwise!

My issue with your throwaway Tornado suggestion, admiral, is that my Tornados shouldn't have to be throwaways. If I lose them in a fight, fine. If you can kill them and then gank me, fine. But if you're the piratical aggressor in highsec space, Concord shouldn't be on your side protecting your tackle. The neutral RR comparison is spot on.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#98 - 2014-10-18 19:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Lenestar Tinsolis wrote:
All of you people recommending we use escorts and not fly solo (I'm looking at you, Mag's), are simply being obtuse. The proposed change only helps those using escorts! Solo freighters can't shoot at any targets, flagged or otherwise!
Like I said, you and the OP are full of inconstancies.

If it only applies as you state, what's the point? Your breaking the use of a mod, so that things can go on as normal and it can break the game in many other ways?

Bearing in mind you have to be rather poor at piloting skills or webbing, to even be bumped while do so. But we're the ones being obtuse?

So the facts are, there are options and tools available. But the OP wants prop mods to create a flag when used and bumping occurs. Even though it wouldn't help him in his current situation, but does in fact break the game and create ways for others to abuse it? I'm glad you cleared that up for us. Thanks. Lol

Oh here's a heads up, the nerf flag applies whenever the mod is activated and a bump occurs. So yes, it would apply to his situation, but relies upon others to take the initiative. Something that seems to be lacking in high sec. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-10-18 19:59:54 UTC
A good alternative to this would be setting it so only MWD gives the suspect flag. Sure you'll see more people using nightmares or what have you instead, but it would solve the pve/missioning issue.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#100 - 2014-10-18 20:57:02 UTC
Ships behave the way they do in space because of spacial disturbance from the warp drives. This is what allows our ships to become stationary and the reason why our ships bounce of off things.

Also your change is bad, there are numerous counters to bumping that you can use.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist