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stripminers should do damage. Period.
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Scion Lex
Horizon Logistics
#1 - 2014-10-17 23:12:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Scion Lex
Yes...this has been brought up before and generally laughed off. I tend to disagree. The reasoning is simple; if it can consume the rock that everything is made from then it should be capable of damaging the final product in some fashion as well. I also think this should ONLY apply to stripminers. Not ice harvesters or anything eles.

Next people will bring in absurd notions of being required to over heat, something about area effect gasclounds. Then we will move on to tractoring asteroids into miners and salvagers doing damage to minmatar ships. All utterly, nonesense

What is nonesense is that any one with a few million isk to burn can suicide gank a barge and it can't shoot back in any fashion besides drones. If you are watching local and dscanning then you should have to option of unlocking the rock and standing your ground with more than the skiff as an option. This is well short of the notion of moving into questionable territory without a cordon or armed escort. Maybe this needs to be another class of barges, I don't care how its done. I've blown up alot of barges. I would be happy knowing that I would have to land on them in a battlecruiser instead of a imperial navy slicer. I like surprises.Pirate
Paranoid Loyd
#2 - 2014-10-17 23:17:10 UTC
Do asteroids have shields?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Scion Lex
Horizon Logistics
#3 - 2014-10-17 23:20:32 UTC
well shields are subject to em, thermal, kinetic and explosive damage. You telling me that a mining laser, in the process of breaking up rock, isn't doing any of those types of damage? Not even one?
Paranoid Loyd
#4 - 2014-10-17 23:22:55 UTC
Nope, they are mining.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Scion Lex
Horizon Logistics
#5 - 2014-10-17 23:23:28 UTC
cool, thanks for the troll.
Paranoid Loyd
#6 - 2014-10-17 23:31:28 UTC
Every bad idea deserves at least one.Blink

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-10-17 23:33:07 UTC
Actually ... why not? If it would be balanced ... i would love to see roam of procurers melting ships by their mining lasers :-D
Scion Lex
Horizon Logistics
#8 - 2014-10-17 23:42:41 UTC
Why not? firstly, because its troll bait. Most of the time it doesn't get a decent discussion. There is also the idea that CCP doesn't want barges balanced. Barges are a high turnover item. Probably cause they die alot. If they could defend themselves the price would probably rise....which has been happening anyway. Then there is the fact that pvpers pad their numbers with them and love easy kills.

Let me ask you this. All that ore sitting in lowsec...whats happening with it? The big alliances that now own all the moons and POCO's haven't started mining in lowsec. Clearly it isn't about force projection. Its the fact that they cannot protect them and they can literally section off space in null for that purpose and get better results. You can't section off lowsec. So the only other option is the barges have to fight....or lowsec will continue to be a relatively untapped resources for obvious and apparent reasons. This is besides the fact that they are simply too soft. The skiff is nice..like I said, but it isn't enough.
Scion Lex
Horizon Logistics
#9 - 2014-10-18 00:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Scion Lex
Moving on...

Imho the strip miner would do either kinetic/therm damage or kinetic/explosive depending on how ccp would decide that they actually worked. In the case of kinetic/therm the threat to shields and armor would be roughly equal. With kinetic/jexplosive it would damage armor more than shields...in theory. In order to limit the use of stripminers as a weapon instead of a tool it could be that the barge's cargo bay fills with scrap metal (or some other useless material) and has to be jettisoned. Also using it as a weapon could "damage" the stripminer module similar to overheating while it is doing damage to armor/structure. Meaning they burn out and have be repair with paste....or even in station only. There could also be a skill associated with the amount of damage done to the module or even being able to use it as a weapon at all. In my mind I already have hull mining 5, but it would still be a great skill.

When you look at the skiff it can have a passive resist shield tank of around 110kehp. Versus a solo hac can't hold its own....but it can last a pretty long time. As far as I know the mack and hulk don't have that kind of tank. Maybe a drone damage bonus is inorder for those barges. Say for Hulk/covetor and Mack/retrievers only. But I think stripminers doing damage with a balanced mechanic could add a very cool spin to the game.
shimiku
Zircron Industries
#10 - 2014-10-18 01:07:14 UTC
how is a beam of light going to do kinetic/explosive dmg ? the only thing it can do em/therm
and if the stripminers was able to dmg just give them really bad tracking because what does it not tracking for when the main target dont move
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#11 - 2014-10-18 01:20:40 UTC
Dear lord, not this again.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Scion Lex
Horizon Logistics
#12 - 2014-10-18 01:39:17 UTC
shimiku wrote:
how is a beam of light going to do kinetic/explosive dmg ? the only thing it can do em/therm
and if the stripminers was able to dmg just give them really bad tracking because what does it not tracking for when the main target dont move



Doesn't really matter. Sure. em/therm meaning it tears down shields faster than armor. Whatever. It comes down to how you choose to decide the module works and what makes it balanced.

This keeps coming up as a symptom of the condition of mining barges......still. Yes, improvements have been made. Yet barges are still laughably soft targets. Dying more slowly than you did before does not constitute and improvement in defense. You would have to actually defend (in other words win a fight). Now that the obvious is out of the way we all understand this means doing damage. Outside of that your options are faclons or a dps race between the attacker and the escorts while the miner hopes everyone is paying attention. Not a bad option, but a little much supposing everyone else (explorers, anom runners etc.) can ply their trade for significantly less committed resources with a much higher rate of survivability So if simply adding more tanking isn't the answer....which it isn't, then a dps change is needed for barges.

Looking at the apparent vision CCP has been highlighting I don't see how this more accessible New Eden is going to pan out when this ancient issue hasn't been addressed completely.

Stripminers doing damage with a balanced mechanic is a viable option and works on existing/similar mechanics already in game.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#13 - 2014-10-18 01:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
I fully support this idea.

I mean, strip miners should not being doing the damage of a dedicated combat laser (medium lasers would be the baseline as barges are technically cruisers), but they should do SOME damage at the very least. Something like a frigate sized laser or something. And tracking should be taken into account too.

How did you Veterans start?
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#14 - 2014-10-18 02:00:25 UTC
Combat wise it would have terrible tracking - well, those asteroids are not moving so tracking is a non-issue. But damage should be done along the lines of a large beam laster.

So: terrible tracking, large beam laser damage, and only the range of a Strip miner.

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#15 - 2014-10-18 02:14:24 UTC
Scion Lex wrote:
There is also the idea that CCP doesn't want barges balanced.


Don't know how you got that idea.. seeing as that they got a really nice balance pass.. then a touch up pass recently.. but then again when it comes to miners, too much is never enough.

So yeah, I cant see this idea growing out of control rather quickly. First its "make mah mining lazors do the damages!" then its "make mah lazors do MOAR damages!!!" then its "make mah lazors do Tornado alpha damage!" then itll be "Make mah lazors do XL Blaster damages, and give them teh Bastion module!!!" So within 6 months, we will have 400k ehp barges with 2500dps (50k damage under specialized ORE bastion siege module) with 200 more threads now wanting a buff to their drone bonuses too.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#16 - 2014-10-18 02:16:43 UTC
if you look at the strip miner....you can see it is basically firing to small low yield blue beams to 'dig' and larger yellow tractor beam to pull in the dust and chunks that break off.

Offensively....you wouldnt want the tractor part operating.....the strips would potentially have low tracking ability maybe on the level of a Batleship gun.

Question? Does the effect of turning the tractor part send the unused cap into the digging lasers making them possible to damg a ship? and if that is the case what is the % of the two types? if we say 80% tractor/20% lasers on a t1 strip thats (90 gj) thats 72/18.

the closest i could find to 18 GJ was the medium sized laser: Focused Modulated Medium Energy Beam I at 9.336 GJ
the closest to 72 GJ would be the Tachyon Afocal Maser I


I also think maybe as a balance thing....there should be a module....albeit seeing a barge/exhumer able to go into siege mode might be a dumb idea but a module anyway or something to activate from basically Defensive to Offensive.


There is much to think about here....or just leave well enough alone. CCP has a lot of other work to complete on this Game.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#17 - 2014-10-18 02:18:39 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:


I also think maybe as a balance thing....there should be a module....albeit seeing a barge/exhumer able to go into siege mode might be a dumb idea but a module anyway or something to activate from basically Defensive to Offensive.

.


******* called it.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#18 - 2014-10-18 02:40:29 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:


I also think maybe as a balance thing....there should be a module....albeit seeing a barge/exhumer able to go into siege mode might be a dumb idea but a module anyway or something to activate from basically Defensive to Offensive.

.


******* called it.


LOL yeah but i meant it as a module that takes up a slot in lieu of antyhing else you might put on there....and all it does is changes your strip miners from a Rock Chewer to a PEW PEW weapon....nothing else....because anything else would most likely be OP.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#19 - 2014-10-18 02:52:03 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
LOL yeah but i meant it as a module that takes up a slot in lieu of antyhing else you might put on there....and all it does is changes your strip miners from a Rock Chewer to a PEW PEW weapon....nothing else....because anything else would most likely be OP.


But I think youre ignoring the 'Law of Highsec in Regards to Visual Assessment Of Neighboring Grass's Chromacity' where the proposed idea needs upward adjustment regardless of current meta or implementation. Case in point, Op requests "Some damage", Someone proposes "damage equivalent to small lasers", and then someone else (hint hint) proposes "medium laser" levels and a "siege" module.
Ron Burgundy wrote:
Well. That escalated quickly!

And we haven't even gotten to page 2 yet! So you can see how quickly this will go out of control as an idea.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Erqui Thiesant
Doomheim
#20 - 2014-10-18 03:03:04 UTC
Miners (and strip miners) don't do damage. They're pretty much tractor beams for asteroids.
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